Is Atheism Unscientific?

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this is an outright lie. Atheism is the belief that no God or gods exist. Consult your dictionary. Even atheists know this to be true.

"Stupid Argument #1: The etymology of the word "atheism" means "a lack of belief".



A commonly repeated error is that the word "atheism" was derived from the prefix "a-", meaning "without", and the word "theism", meaning a belief in God. Therefore they claim that "atheism" means "without a belief in God". This is incorrect because the etymology of the word "atheism" derives from the Greek word "atheos" meaning "godless". The "-ism" suffix, which can be roughly mean "belief", was added later. The etymology of the word means "godless belief" not "without a belief in gods"."


http://www.evilbible.com/Definition_of_Atheism_2.htm
Finally, somebody around here is playing with a full deck. That is correct. Just like Hegel's dialectic about thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Whenever there is a philosophical view, there are those with the philosophical counterview. In this case, Theism and Atheism. Regardless of what the view/counterview, it is not customary to categorize those who do not take any side under either.

In the case of theism, those who do not take any sides/uncertain, do not fall under either category. At least the adult world. Perhaps in kiddyland, we can come up with some fun terms such as weak-atheism, and strong-atheism. Let's not forget the ever beloved "atheist-agnostic". LOL.

Articles within the last few years that have infested the internet like cancer provide completely baseless claims on the etymology and definition of atheism:
This is simply about of how a specific ideology uses propaganda tactics to proliferate. Whether you agree with these terms and ideologies or not. They are no different from any religious propaganda using diversion of commonality. What they do is use smoke and mirrors to make their views seem like the common historical normality.
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2069955&postcount=28
 
dan said:
this is an outright lie. Atheism is the belief that no God or gods exist. Consult your dictionary. Even atheists know this to be true.

"Stupid Argument #1: The etymology of the word "atheism" means "a lack of belief".



A commonly repeated error is that the word "atheism" was derived from the prefix "a-", meaning "without", and the word "theism", meaning a belief in God. Therefore they claim that "atheism" means "without a belief in God". This is incorrect because the etymology of the word "atheism" derives from the Greek word "atheos" meaning "godless". The "-ism" suffix, which can be roughly mean "belief", was added later. The etymology of the word means "godless belief" not "without a belief in gods"."
You appear to be confused in reading your own sources there. Godless belief is not the same as belief there is no God.

My beliefs are godless - that is, I have no beliefs that include a God. If some one asks me if I am "an atheist", what am I supposed to tell them ? I can see that none of the Gods extant are reasonable or likely to exist, on the other hand I probably haven't thought of everything - who knows what someone may come up with for a Deity, that may prove persuasive to me? So although I strongly doubt that certain specific Gods exist - the God of the Fundamentalist Christian Bible is almost a self parody, and completely unbelievable as a Deity, for example; the Muslim Deity likewise - too transparent an adjunct of temporal power - I have no actual belief in the matter in any significant sense. In the sense that one believes in a Deity, I don't disbelieve in all possibility of such an entity, suitably adjusted to known reality.

lixluke said:
In the case of theism, those who do not take any sides/uncertain, do not fall under either category.
I am convinced, as a matter of judgment not belief, that your God does not exist anywhere but in your mind, as a fictional entity. But I have no belief in some kind of general nonexistence of anything anyone would want to call a Deity - suppose someone believed in and worshipped a cat, wtihout giving the cat any magical powers, simply for the spiritual enlightenment the cat supplies and its profound connection with the spiritual aspects of the universe. Am I going to claim that the cat does not exist, or provides no spiritual benefits ? Hardly. There would be a God that exists. But I would not believe in it,myself - I would continue in my Godless beliefs.

So what should I call me, in my Godless beliefs ? Atheist seems like the correct term, from Dan's etymology (and my own more thorough one) right up to standard usage by most theists.
 
this is an outright lie. Atheism is the belief that no God or gods exist. Consult your dictionary. Even atheists know this to be true.

"Stupid Argument #1: The etymology of the word "atheism" means "a lack of belief".



A commonly repeated error is that the word "atheism" was derived from the prefix "a-", meaning "without", and the word "theism", meaning a belief in God. Therefore they claim that "atheism" means "without a belief in God". This is incorrect because the etymology of the word "atheism" derives from the Greek word "atheos" meaning "godless". The "-ism" suffix, which can be roughly mean "belief", was added later. The etymology of the word means "godless belief" not "without a belief in gods"."


http://www.evilbible.com/Definition_of_Atheism_2.htm

I am godless, because I am without belief in God. Your etymological analysis is flawed, and proves nothing, therefore.

I do not have a firm belief God does not exist of course, because I would have to have evidence for that position, and there is none.

So stop beating this dead horse, and accept that atheists simply lack faith.

Why is it always theists making the incorrect definition of the word? Why do you feel the need to make atheists antitheists?
 
I am convinced, as a matter of judgment not belief, that your God does not exist anywhere but in your mind, as a fictional entity.
Yes atheist is the correct term. You believe that there is no God. Those who do not believe there is no God are not atheists as much as they are not theists.
 
science is based upon the biblical notion of causality.

Isn't causality a notion that's based in reality?
Everyone everywhere has at least some notion of causality. Even a clever rat has an inkling of causality- press this lever, get a snack.

(1) So far is meaningless because the future is unpredictable and it's always crazier than we think.
(2) Seeming is not being.
(3) We don't know what the natural laws are.
(4) We haven't observed the entire universe. That would be called a physical impossibility.

You aren't a scientist are you?
I bet you haven't ever done any science, either.

hmmm, what other life forms are you aware of besides the carbon based ones we all know of?

A fish can't live on the land.
Some Archaea cannot live outside of anerobic mudflats.

If evolution is correct, it eliminates the need for any outside agent. People who say God started evolution really don't understand the explanatory power of that theory.

Evolution & abiogenesis get conflated all the time. Evolution definitely happens. Abiogenesis is more ambiguous.
 
Three points:

Atheism is to belief as bald is to hair color.

Atheism is a lack of belief, agnosticism is a lack of knowledge, or more apt, a lack of the ability to gain certain types of knowledge. I do not believe and I do not know, nor do I think I can know, given the evidence at hand. Two different concepts.

Is Atheism scientific? Well, what is science?
1. A branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.

Given these, theism would not fit, and any anti-theistic claim would also not fit, as you could not show the operational laws of a theist belief structure or posit a proof of knowledge therein - which is why a follower relies on faith and not knowledge or proof. Per item number 2, science is the study of the natural and material world; any attempt to make claims outside of that world, as in "without evidence manifest in this universe", is unscientific by definition.

Claims as to the existence or the non existence of supernatural forces that do not effect this material world in testable or measurable ways are not scientific claims, but theological claims. So theism and anti-theism are out of the science 'tent'.

Lack of theism would be more appropriate, but in all truth, not all that much more. The entire topic of the supernatural doesn't fit in science; a stance on that topic in any fashion doesn't really fit either.

The only appropriate answer to the question, IMO, is: "The question is not scientific."
 
A few weeks ago Bill Maher was on the Daily Show pitching his film Religulous. Jon Steward took him to be an atheist to which he responded (with some paraphrasing), "I'm not an atheist. I don't like atheism. It's the mirror image of the certitude of religion." To an extremely skeptical agnostic like myself this seemed quite reasonable. Is there enough empirical evidence for atheism? I don't for a minute equate the "certitude" of atheism with that of the currently accepted religions but can't help thinking that atheists are a little too smug given the current state of scientific knowledge. Am I missing something? Do we know enough about the past, current, future state of the universe (amongst other things?) to absolutely exclude the possibility of some form of deity?

I'm quite conviced their are minor deities that exert control over machines and other technological artefacts. These can only be placated by ministrations from Shaman-mechanicks. Their particular god is Araldites, the goddess of fixing things.
Apart from that weakness, I am atheist so shan't venture further comment here:)
 
Given these, theism would not fit, and any anti-theistic claim would also not fit, as you could not show the operational laws of a theist belief structure or posit a proof of knowledge therein - which is why a follower relies on faith and not knowledge or proof. Per item number 2, science is the study of the natural and material world; any attempt to make claims outside of that world, as in "without evidence manifest in this universe", is unscientific by definition.
not unscientific
merely beyond empirical claims

Claims as to the existence or the non existence of supernatural forces that do not effect this material world in testable or measurable ways are not scientific claims, but theological claims..
they are metaphysical claims
metaphysical claims, while controversial, do find their way into scientific discussions

So theism and anti-theism are out of the science 'tent'
they do however frequently contextualize empirical claims.
For instance an almost constant dialouge that runs parrallel to atheism is that reality is materially reducible.
This has ethical implications (euthenasia for example)


Lack of theism would be more appropriate, but in all truth, not all that much more. The entire topic of the supernatural doesn't fit in science; a stance on that topic in any fashion doesn't really fit either.

The only appropriate answer to the question, IMO, is: "The question is not scientific."
atheism, as a metaphysical stance, certainly influences how we discern information gathered by the senses (ie, empirical claims)
 
Certainly theological and moral discussions can rely on science as a foundation for argument. But based solely on the definition, I don't think one can say that questions about theism can be qualified as scientific, no matter how heavily they might rely on empirical evidence to bolster the conclusion.

The line, IMO, seems to sit directly between "I can measure X" and determining conscious supernatural involvement in that measurement.

That line might move *if* one day someone statistically shows that there is a pattern in the "randomness" of the sub-atomic world, and that pattern shows apparent awareness - just as we test and define life, there would need to be a non-reactionary aspect to the behavior, something that is measurable within this universe, but not sourced from within this universe.
 
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A few weeks ago Bill Maher was on the Daily Show pitching his film Religulous. Jon Steward took him to be an atheist to which he responded (with some paraphrasing), "I'm not an atheist. I don't like atheism. It's the mirror image of the certitude of religion." To an extremely skeptical agnostic like myself this seemed quite reasonable. Is there enough empirical evidence for atheism? I don't for a minute equate the "certitude" of atheism with that of the currently accepted religions but can't help thinking that atheists are a little too smug given the current state of scientific knowledge. Am I missing something? Do we know enough about the past, current, future state of the universe (amongst other things?) to absolutely exclude the possibility of some form of deity?
Religion is by nature man-made. Is atheism a disbelief in religion or a disbelief in God. For sake of discussion lets use the name (God) as a generic and atheism as a disbelief in a Deity or Deities.

This then brings up the question: Is God the creator, the created, or is it the sum total of all existence, or an emergence of all. The question cannot even begin to be addressed before this definition is made.

In the first case atheism is definately valid, the existence of deity is essentially either zero or non-zero. Atheism therefore is also essentially correct or incorrect.

In the second case atheism is correct in the sense that if God is a human idea it is a philosophical point of veiw specific to that realm but having little or no validity in a strict scientific sense.

In the final two cases atheism could be considered invalid scientifically because it would be a refusal to recognize what is true, for example believing in creationism when evolution is a scientifically established fact.

There is no empirical evidence for the existence of God, at least not to my limited knowledge. Indeed the universe appears to be a chance occurance, in this reality things seem to have fallen together in ways that ultimately allowed us to emerge without outside planning or influence. This does not in any way exclude the possibility of a creator, it may have created the universe to look that way.

Ultimately there is no final answer available to us. I can't even imagine a way to test these questions.

Critique welcome, flames cheerfully ignored.
 
Religion is by nature man-made.
Jung might argue that point. He defines religion as a collection of archetypes, and archetypes occur naturally in our brains. (More on that in a moment.) Therefore it could be argued that religion is natural, and not man-made.
. . . .for example believing in creationism when evolution is a scientifically established fact.
There are no facts in science, only theories which have been proven "true beyond a reasonable doubt," to borrow the language of the law since the language of science is not well suited for communicating with laymen. We cannot say with 100% certainty that the theory of evolution will not one day be falsified, but the probability of that happening is so slight that it is unreasonable to dwell on it. But to get back to your statement, the reason many religious people feel compelled to doubt the theory of evolution is that they have not been taught to distinguish between evolution, which is the slow changing of one species into another through genetic processes, and abiogenesis, which is the transformation of non-living matter into living matter. Evolution is a canonical scientific theory supported by a plethora of evidence of several different types. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis to explain how the very first living things arose. There is no observational evidence for it and reasoned evidence is weak since we don't understand how major parts of it might work. The best evidence for abiogenesis as the source of life is the syllogism:
  • The universe was at one time a point mass of infinite temperature.
  • Life could not have existed under those conditions.
  • Life exists now.
  • Therefore, at least once, life arose from non-life.
This is a rational argument and therefore is automatically elevated above the scatterbrained attempts at "reasoning" offered by theists, along the lines of "Hey dude, there are freakin' butterflies! That beauty is proof that my god created the universe." Since it's the only hypothesis about the origin of life that is even vaguely scientific, we all cluster around it for lack of anywhere else to go. But it is so full of gaps that it's impossible to test, much less prove. It has not been proven true beyond a reasonable doubt, so it is only a hypothesis.

Come back in a hundred years when we've figured out how to turn inorganic matter into organic matter using chemical reactions that could reasonably have existed on the primordial earth, and then we'll talk about "proof."

In the meantime, many religious people back themselves into a corner by feeling compelled to deny evolution, because they don't realize it does not conflict with divine creation. No less august a religious authority than the Pope accepts the theory of evolution without shaking his faith in abiogenesis, and Catholic educational institutions teach evolution unremarkably. The same is true of most mainline Christian denominations, as well as other Abrahamist and non-Abrahamist communities. The evolution denial movement in America comes from the same Bible Belt as the fundamentalist biblical literalism about the "young earth," created in 4000BCE with all species already in existence.
There is no empirical evidence for the existence of God, at least not to my limited knowledge.
The only "evidence" for god(s) is an archetype, a pre-programmed instinctive belief hard-wired into our brains by an accident of evolution. (A one-time survival trait, or the result of a genetic bottleneck, etc.) Unfortunately a belief that a person is born with is older than all other beliefs acquired through learning and reasoning, so it "feels" more true than any of them. To many people it "feels" so true as to be accepted as intuitive and uncontroversial. Anyone who does not experience this instinctive belief, or has lost it or shed it, is regarded as mentally unbalanced, perverted, stupid, etc., just as if he lacked the also-instinctive but scientifically corroborated belief that he must eat in order to live.
Indeed the universe appears to be a chance occurance, in this reality things seem to have fallen together in ways that ultimately allowed us to emerge without outside planning or influence. This does not in any way exclude the possibility of a creator, it may have created the universe to look that way.
This line of reasoning violates the definition of "the universe" as everything that exists. The creator by definition is part of the universe. Saying that he created all the parts we can observe does not answer the recursive question: How did he come into existence?

People who say "God created the universe" and then imperiously assume that they don't have to answer the obvious follow-up question "Okay then, who created the god please?" are being disingenuous. This is not scholarship so we are not obliged to treat it with respect, and we are quite justified in keeping it out of our educational systems.
 
Is it unscientific to disbelieve in Vishnu or the Easter Bunny?
given that Vishnu is said to be beyond the investigation of empiricism, it would be more absurd to be believe that empiricism is capable of in/validating Vishnu in the first place
:eek:
 
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