the universe is infinite right? if it really is then doesnt that mean that there is infinite places for life to exist or in other words 0 chance of it not existing, and doesnt this go for averthing? like everything has to be reality somwhere?
infinite probability
- Thread starter god-of-course
- Start date
- Status
Who says the universe is infinite (I for one believe in a finite, unbounded spherical or torus shaped universe)? And even if it was that doesnt mean something MUST occur. Example, I have the following repeating number: 0.12121212...
This pattern goes on forever, and since it IS a pattern no other numbers have to ever occur, but it is still infinite.
-AntonK
This pattern goes on forever, and since it IS a pattern no other numbers have to ever occur, but it is still infinite.
-AntonK
Hi god-of-course,
If these premises are true (they might not be), then the question of whether everything that can exist does exist depends on whether the Cardinality of the number of things that can exist is the same as the number of places available.
I suggest that it's not. I suggest that the places available (the inifinite space of the hypothetical universe) is countably infinite, while the number of things that can exist is uncountably infinite.
- The universe is infinite in size
- The fundamental constants (c, G, h) are constant throughout this infinite universe
- On some sufficiently large scale, mass/energy density is uniform (implies infinite mass/energy as well as infinite space)
If these premises are true (they might not be), then the question of whether everything that can exist does exist depends on whether the Cardinality of the number of things that can exist is the same as the number of places available.
I suggest that it's not. I suggest that the places available (the inifinite space of the hypothetical universe) is countably infinite, while the number of things that can exist is uncountably infinite.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000
This article explains it all and then some. (although it is 9 pages long, it's definitely worth the read)
This article explains it all and then some. (although it is 9 pages long, it's definitely worth the read)
Well right now you both are about right and both wrong.
BTW i thought the Universe was shown to be rectangle shaped, a pancake of sorts.
blackholesun
Registered Senior Member
Didn't think a pancake was rectangular. What do you call your waffles?:m:
eburacum45
Valued Senior Member
I believe Pete is correct;
just because the universe is infinite (assuming for the sake of argument that it is) that does not mean that that every possible event is represented in real life somewhere;
there will also be an infinitely large class of events which do not occur anywhere.
_________________
SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html
just because the universe is infinite (assuming for the sake of argument that it is) that does not mean that that every possible event is represented in real life somewhere;
there will also be an infinitely large class of events which do not occur anywhere.
_________________
SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html
I meant the shape was rectangular and it was flat as a pancake......though for the creative there are rectangular pancakes
John Connellan
Valued Senior Member
Depends what u mean by infinite. If u mean that there can be an infinite amount and type of events that can occur in the universe then yes anything can happen. The problem is, I doubt anyone believes that ! If u mean the universe is infinite in size (which I presume u meant by ur references to 'spaces') then it is actually still highly unlikely that 'anything' can happen coz its only infinite in size and nothing else. Its probably infinite in size but with a set amount of laws and particle types so not anything can happen. That answers the last part of ur question but as regards life (which we know has happened) I believe that an infinite universe should contain pockets of life elsewhere but is the universe really infinite in size???
Here's one possible way of looking at it.
If the Cosmos (however many universes there may be) is either eternal or infinite, and it surely must be one of these, then logic suggests that everything that can happen must.
As consciousness is one of the things that can happen, for some unknown reason, then it will happen an infinite numer of times.
As every state of consciousness is unique from moment to moment and from entity to entity (try imagining how any two could be the same) then an awful lot of states of consciousness occur, and I would suggest it is an infinite number.
I wouldn't call this infinite lives since I don't know what 'life' is, but it must be an infinity of experiences. After all it's a very big number even for individuals entities.
It's a pretty awesome setup.
If the Cosmos (however many universes there may be) is either eternal or infinite, and it surely must be one of these, then logic suggests that everything that can happen must.
As consciousness is one of the things that can happen, for some unknown reason, then it will happen an infinite numer of times.
As every state of consciousness is unique from moment to moment and from entity to entity (try imagining how any two could be the same) then an awful lot of states of consciousness occur, and I would suggest it is an infinite number.
I wouldn't call this infinite lives since I don't know what 'life' is, but it must be an infinity of experiences. After all it's a very big number even for individuals entities.
It's a pretty awesome setup.
Riomacleod
Registered Senior Member
Someone calculated that the minimum probability accounts for all atoms in the universe and is like 1e-4,000,000 (or so, I'm kind of guessing at the actual number). Anything less likely than this has a 0 probability of occuring.
BetweenThePoints
Registered Senior Member
It's all about what YOU think.
Reality is defined by MY perception of it. I say "my" because not one of you can prove your existence to me beyond all doubt, because all that I have are my senses. These can be decieved quite easily. Following this premise, which by the way I cannot prove to you, nor you prove to me, then the universe has infinite possibilities for the simple reason that those possibilities exist in your mind. You must assume that your own conciousness is all that can be proven to exist because it is the instrument by which you test the universe. You can only be reasonably sure about any possibility, never completely. But the simple fact that you can be reasonably sure is enough for that particular event to happen, or, at least, be possible.
Reality is defined by MY perception of it. I say "my" because not one of you can prove your existence to me beyond all doubt, because all that I have are my senses. These can be decieved quite easily. Following this premise, which by the way I cannot prove to you, nor you prove to me, then the universe has infinite possibilities for the simple reason that those possibilities exist in your mind. You must assume that your own conciousness is all that can be proven to exist because it is the instrument by which you test the universe. You can only be reasonably sure about any possibility, never completely. But the simple fact that you can be reasonably sure is enough for that particular event to happen, or, at least, be possible.
I really tire of this "my mind is the centre of the universe" talk and it unfortunately seems to be growing in popularity.
What the hell is the point? Its such an arrogant proposal. Are you saying that if you ceased to exist the universe would cease to exist merely because it ceases to exist in your mind? Are you sure your mind isn't just the activity of an organ doing its fumbling best to make sense of something that is very real and would exist with or without a bald ape observing it?
As for the subject, I admit I used to assume the same, that if the universe was infinite every possibility would have to happen an infinite number of times, but WCF's pattern example is a really good point. Natural laws are more of a set pattern(all be it an incredibly elaborate one) than random occurences.
But then with that in mind does that mean there would be an infinite number of exact earths?
What the hell is the point? Its such an arrogant proposal. Are you saying that if you ceased to exist the universe would cease to exist merely because it ceases to exist in your mind? Are you sure your mind isn't just the activity of an organ doing its fumbling best to make sense of something that is very real and would exist with or without a bald ape observing it?
As for the subject, I admit I used to assume the same, that if the universe was infinite every possibility would have to happen an infinite number of times, but WCF's pattern example is a really good point. Natural laws are more of a set pattern(all be it an incredibly elaborate one) than random occurences.
But then with that in mind does that mean there would be an infinite number of exact earths?
I can understand people who don't like it. However could you explain why it is arrogant, and what evidence there is that it's false? Perhaps also you might wonder why it is becoming such a popular view in and out of philsophy and science. Bear in mind that the idea that consciousness is the underlying organising force in the universe doesn't mean that it would cease to exist if you and me ceased to exist. However our conceptions of it would cease to exist.
Conceptions of the world are generally considered to incommensurable and unique. In this sense there are a pretty much an infinite number of perceptions of it. Is there ONE reality underneath all those perceptions? That's the big unanswered question. Nobody has yet shown that we can ever answer it. The idea of relativity, combined with the 'theory-laden' nature of perception, suggests that it's not even a sensible question.[As for the subject, I admit I used to assume the same, that if the universe was infinite every possibility would have to happen an infinite number of times, but WCF's pattern example is a really good point. Natural laws are more of a set pattern(all be it an incredibly elaborate one) than random occurences.
But then with that in mind does that mean there would be an infinite number of exact earths?
I would have to agree. I have no sure belief in anything divine and as such I do not fear for peoples souls and I do not particularly fear divine punishment. I know I seem to be getting off track, but stay with me. My reasoning behind why murder is wrong is not because a God commanded it and only a little about what that murder may be taking from people (loved ones, etc.). My reasoning as to why murder is wrong is that everytime someone is killed or dies, a universe ceases to be (or is at least taken from where we can access it). Every person has a unique view of the universe, composed of everything from their religious convictions, scientific knowledge, political and social ideas, to personal delusions. I know that these same influences have made the universe I perceive real, and I do not want my thoughts lost to the void.
Canute - Infinite probability and infinite possibility are not the same. Let us say the chances of live evolving on any given planet are 1 in 1 billion (I am just throwing out numbers, I do not remember what Drake worked it out to be or if Drakes equations are even still in favor). Now there may be an infinite number of worlds were life could possibly evolve, but that does not change the probability of it happening. The chance that life would evolve on any one of the infinite number of worlds is still 1 in 1 billion which is not a very good chance. Of course, I do understand that by law of averages, an infinite universe should have an infinite worlds with life, but on the hand there is a chance that the dice only rolled snake eyes once - us.
- KitNyx
Canute - Infinite probability and infinite possibility are not the same. Let us say the chances of live evolving on any given planet are 1 in 1 billion (I am just throwing out numbers, I do not remember what Drake worked it out to be or if Drakes equations are even still in favor). Now there may be an infinite number of worlds were life could possibly evolve, but that does not change the probability of it happening. The chance that life would evolve on any one of the infinite number of worlds is still 1 in 1 billion which is not a very good chance. Of course, I do understand that by law of averages, an infinite universe should have an infinite worlds with life, but on the hand there is a chance that the dice only rolled snake eyes once - us.
- KitNyx
KitNyx - Agree with your first para. but I think the second is not sensible.
Life is not yet defined. It's not even clear whether something has to be biologically 'alive' to be conscious. The notion that consciousness is structures of quantum coherence in an infinite zero point field is currently being seriously suggested. (Based on new-ish findings biology and elsewhere).
Biological life emerged almost the instant it was possible on this planet. I think you'll find that the view that life is improbable is dying fast. It seems to almost unstoppable. Drake's equations are ad hoc guesswork as far as I can tell.
Because of this I don't think that life is the issue. We define life as beginning at a certain level of biological complexity. However there is no dividing line between life and non-life that isn't an arbitrary guess.
Life is not yet defined. It's not even clear whether something has to be biologically 'alive' to be conscious. The notion that consciousness is structures of quantum coherence in an infinite zero point field is currently being seriously suggested. (Based on new-ish findings biology and elsewhere).
Biological life emerged almost the instant it was possible on this planet. I think you'll find that the view that life is improbable is dying fast. It seems to almost unstoppable. Drake's equations are ad hoc guesswork as far as I can tell.
Because of this I don't think that life is the issue. We define life as beginning at a certain level of biological complexity. However there is no dividing line between life and non-life that isn't an arbitrary guess.
- Status