If we clone neanderthals, will they have legal rights?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

but as far as stripping the DNA out of a fertalised egg and replacing it, i thought people HAD done it.

It is possible to enucleate a cell (ie. suck out the nucleus) and replace it with an exogenous nucleus from another cell. After all, this is the basis of cloning by nuclear transfer – fuse a donor cell (with donor nucleus) to an enucleated ovum.

But that’s different to the hypothetical scenario being posed by the article. The guy in the article is suggesting that we can somehow insert his reconstituted in vitro DNA into a nucleus. He could try to inject it directly into the nucleus of a mouse cell but how would he first remove all the mouse chromosomes?

And that brings up another glaring problem with the whole idea. Performing mutagenesis to convert human DNA into Neanderthal DNA, then stitching together all the fragments, is done on naked DNA. How does this guy propose to somehow convert his naked DNA into functional chromosomes that can be packaged into a nucleus?

im sure there is a thread around here about that being an option for women with mitocondrial disorders so that they arnt pased on to the child

I guess that would be something along the lines of transferring a nucleus from the ovum of the patient into an enucleated donor ovum which still contain their mitochondria (without the mutation in question).

 

[Burada]

Well chimps are close enough that we could interbreed as well, but the offspring wouldn't be viable. By subspecies then, do you mean a breed of sorts? Such as dalmations versus poodles?

Neanderthals are neanderthals and chimps are chimps. I never saw a female chimp that really turned me on enough to breed with. But on the other hand, I haven't been looking around lately at the female neanderthal social network either. I imagine there might be a few walking around out there somewhere. I'll have to check it out.

 

[Enmos]

Neanderthals are neanderthals and chimps are chimps. I never saw a female chimp that really turned me on enough to breed with. But on the other hand, I haven't been looking around lately at the female neanderthal social network either. I imagine there might be a few walking around out there somewhere. I'll have to check it out.

Could, not would..

 

[GeoffP]

It is possible to enucleate a cell (ie. suck out the nucleus) and replace it with an exogenous nucleus from another cell. After all, this is the basis of cloning by nuclear transfer – fuse a donor cell (with donor nucleus) to an enucleated ovum.

But that’s different to the hypothetical scenario being posed by the article. The guy in the article is suggesting that we can somehow insert his reconstituted in vitro DNA into a nucleus. He could try to inject it directly into the nucleus of a mouse cell but how would he first remove all the mouse chromosomes?

"Echromatization"? At condensation, maybe. How you'd get it all out for sure I've no idea. Probably end up with a neanderthal with a mouse tail.

And that brings up another glaring problem with the whole idea. Performing mutagenesis to convert human DNA into Neanderthal DNA, then stitching together all the fragments, is done on naked DNA. How does this guy propose to somehow convert his naked DNA into functional chromosomes that can be packaged into a nucleus?

Do chimps and humans share much histone positioning? Maybe one could use conserved histones, although there's probably enough difference that the trial and error rate wouldn't really fly with NSF or NIH. Then again, there's the original problem - as you mention - of stitching the sequence together. Even if you used the chimp or human genomes as a guideline, how to match up the pieces that don't match - and which may be responsible for "Neanderthalness"! How much of this, too, I wonder, is methylation.

 

[domesticated om]

Question (off topic from current discussion of realistic feasibility of pulling this off, or whether or not it's human):

What is it exactly that would give any organism "legal status"?

Lets say the organism is a 5 foot lizard with enough intelligence to be comparable to human intelligence (I think that's the meat of the OP's question here). Does it get legal status? Can it cavort with human society as one of its citizens?

 

[S.A.M.]

How does this guy propose to somehow convert his naked DNA into functional chromosomes that can be packaged into a nucleus?

The idea that Church proposed is to start with a human genome and making the few changes required to convert it to neanderthal genome before inserting it in a chimp cell. The chimp cell would then be reprogrammed to an embryonic state and inserted into a chimp womb to gestation.

This could be done, he said, by splitting the human genome into 30,000 chunks about 100,000 DNA units in length. Each chunk would be inserted into bacteria and converted to the Neanderthal equivalent by changing the few DNA units in which the two species differ. The changed lengths of DNA would then be reassembled into a full Neanderthal genome. To avoid ethical problems, this genome would be inserted not into a human cell but into a chimpanzee cell.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/science/13neanderthal.html?_r=1

 

[John99]

Question (off topic from current discussion of realistic feasibility of pulling this off, or whether or not it's human):

What is it exactly that would give any organism "legal status"?

Lets say the organism is a 5 foot lizard with enough intelligence to be comparable to human intelligence (I think that's the meat of the OP's question here). Does it get legal status? Can it cavort with human society as one of its citizens?

i think it would apply to any organism with comparable intelligence.

 

[John99]

Neanderthals are neanderthals and chimps are chimps. I never saw a female chimp that really turned me on enough to breed with. But on the other hand, I haven't been looking around lately at the female neanderthal social network either. I imagine there might be a few walking around out there somewhere. I'll have to check it out.

it is impossible to say because neaderthal is a theory based on no evidence as to intelligence. primitive is primitive but does not necessarily mean less intelligent. its like i said here before, if you take a population of humans with ZERO knowledge, no advancements expect their naked bodies and NO established language then where would that leave them? i guess they would be neanderthals.

does this close the case? most likely...yeeeeappp.

 

[Enmos]

Question (off topic from current discussion of realistic feasibility of pulling this off, or whether or not it's human):

What is it exactly that would give any organism "legal status"?

Lets say the organism is a 5 foot lizard with enough intelligence to be comparable to human intelligence (I think that's the meat of the OP's question here). Does it get legal status? Can it cavort with human society as one of its citizens?

Hmm.. that is something we haven't come across (assuming the aliens haven't landed yet).
As far as I know you have to be human in order to have basic human rights. Legal rights is the next obstacle.

 

[Enmos]

i think it would apply to any organism with comparable intelligence.

How naive..

 

[John99]

yeah i know. you know what no one else does. you are all knowing. i forgot you are god.

 

[John99]

forgive me sire. *john genuflects to the little boy king*

 

[Enmos]

yeah i know. you know what no one else does. you are all knowing. i forgot you are god.

You are a good subject John. Keep it up and we might one day fight evil side by side

Seriously though. Do you think it's a given that humans treat other humans (thus members of the same species) with respect ? Remember the Holocaust ? There are more examples.

 

[John99]

i dont know but if a lizard could read and write and had equal intelligence we wouldn't have much choice but to at least try and treat them as equal.

 

[Xylene]

i dont know but if a lizard could read and write and had equal intelligence we wouldn't have much choice but to at least try and treat them as equal.

A reasonable point--let's turn it on its head. What if, say, an intelligent saurian-descended race turns up and says, 'hello, we're from Aldabaran' or wherever, and they turn out to be a far older and more advanced race than us (as evidence, they came to visit us, not vice-versa). Do they treat us with respect, or do they stomp all over us?

 

[Oli]

i dont know but if a lizard could read and write and had equal intelligence we wouldn't have much choice but to at least try and treat them as equal.

The human race has an exemplary record of using "reading, writing and equal intelligence" an indicator of equality.
Oh.
Wait...

 

[GeoffP]

A reasonable point--let's turn it on its head. What if, say, an intelligent saurian-descended race turns up and says, 'hello, we're from Aldabaran' or wherever, and they turn out to be a far older and more advanced race than us (as evidence, they came to visit us, not vice-versa). Do they treat us with respect, or do they stomp all over us?

Stomp. What else would they have come for?

 

[Xylene]

Stomp. What else would they have come for?

Oh, I dunno...trade, tourism, spread their religion, look for gold, who knows? Either way, we'll probably find ourselves on the business end of their weapons eventually. Just as the neanderthals found themselves on the business end of our weapons ca. 50,000 years ago.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

From what we know of the neanderthals they used tools and buried their dead. Assuming that they comprehend the concept of accountability and moral responsibility, would they have rights? Would they be required to abide by the same social regulations?

What if their intellectual capacities were different? Would they be confined in zoos?

No they woudnt be confined in zoos... they woud be treeted mor humainly than apes... in that our esperiments on 'em woudnt be as harsh... an they woud be given freedom to live on a reservaton wit a huge fence aroun it... an ther ever move woud be recorded on video... an even if they wasnt considered human... i dout ther woud be many countrys that woud raize 'em for food even if they tasted real good.!!!

 

[Randwolf]

No they woudnt be confined in zoos...

No, we would probably qualify the places of confinement as "simulated natural habitats", not zoos. How primitive!