If No Consciousness Exists, By What Right Does The Universe?

First, How do you you express qualia without words?
By recognition. Others recognize what kind of experience we are talking about because they have had the same experience themselves.
The words doesn't produce the qualia, it makes us remember and associate to it. Since we only remember and associate to it, it cannot fully define what the qualia is that we are talking about. Hence people can see a different color for red than you and you would never know it. You can only express the association to the qualia, not the actual qualia. The actual qualia is without words and can't be defined (at least not according to our current knowledge of it).




Second , have you seen all the clips I provided of GPT3 abilities and artistry?
I've seen my fair share of clips and videos about GPT3, very fascinating, but not the same process that produces human intelligence. There are a lot of differences.


That Time Daniel Dennett Took 200 Micrograms of LSD (In Another Timeline)
Posted onAugust 6 by algekalipso
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Integrated_information_theory_postulates.jpg

Axioms of Integrated Information Theory (IIT)
..... ..... https://qualiacomputing.com/tag/gpt-3/
The GPT3 does have experiential limitations and taste is one of them, but consider sound and ability produce a new symphony using the known techniques of harmonic chronologies and the emotional experiences of tension and release .
You divert from what the GPT actually does. It does not experience anything. It can create sounds and all kind of data based on what it has trained on, but it is no different from the way that it can produce a sentence based on what sentence came before it. It is the full cornerstone of what GPT3 is. It is all based on having a lot of weighs based on training on datasets which makes it able to "predict" based on those weighs what comes next.


I disagree. Of course existence can be verified to a great extent. We are looking at remnants of very early electro/chemical processes , from shortly after the inflationary epoch. Self referential processes and self-organization started very shortly after the the formation of earliest elements and their signature wavelengths.
These processes needed not be conscious in order to produce complexity from simplicity.
There was no verification at that time, that is what I was saying. We can of course verify it today and ever since consciousness has existed, so you kind of missed the point.


Consider CDT (causal dynamical triangulation), which proposes that spacetime itself unfolds via a fractal process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation#

IMO, consciousness is just another extreme evolutionary refinement of self-referential electro/chemical processing, just as an eagle's vision is an extreme evolutionary result of self-referential light sensitive patches in even the earliest life forms.
What do you mean by self-referential? Normally, as I understand it, self-referential systems examines it's own output to adjust for imperfections. Evolution doesn't work that way, it isn't referring to anything so I don't really know what you mean. Maybe you can elaborate on it?

CDT was a interesting read, don't know how it relates to this, but thanks for sharing the link.




There is nothing mysterious about any of this. It merely shows the power of stochastic natural selection for advantageous abilities, which applies not only to living organisms but to the entire physical world.
I don't see any advantage to having consciousness. Why couldn't a person without consciousness accomplish the very things that the person with consciousness accomplishes? That's why we often hear that it is a indirect result of the complexity of the brain, and emergent property, rather than something that evolution has produced from selection.


Consider that the Fibonacci sequence is the perfect algorithm for balanced vertical growth and surface distribution.
The sequence is pervasive throughout world of flora.

Boman Fibonacci Sequence .....more
https://www.fq.math.ca/Papers1/55-5/Boman.pdf

None of this required conscious planning or execution. Given enough time for trial and error, nature usually comes up with the mathematically most efficient organizational growth patterns. Self-organization!

This is why I am so enamored with a mathematically based Universe. Mathematics are a quasi intelligent dynamical processing function. Input --> Function --> Output. This does not need brain generated qualia, the Explicated results are already present in potential form in the Implicate Order (David Bohm)
I also like maths very much, but it's hard to know in what way mathematics exists, if it even has a existence beyond our use of it.
 
It doesn't mean the invented category slash discipline of "mathematics" owns patterns, form, structure, or organization any more than the invented discipline of astronomy owns the planets, stars, galaxies of the universe. Which is to say, appending the adjective "mathematical" to items doesn't provide them with additional causal powers.

I agree, but it is not a purely human invented (imaginary) discipline which identifies existing patterns and behavioral powers.

Human mathematics are only the symbolic representation of observed axiomatic (inherent) natural mathematical values and functions. We have also observed that complex patterns acquire (emergent) complex abilities. A circular object acquires the ability to roll (ask any Dung Beetle). A triangle acquires the ability to form complex fractals by mere iteration. [...]

Coincidentally, this last week...

The universe is not made of mathematics
https://iai.tv/articles/the-creative-universe-auid-1819

EXCERPT (Michael Epperson): . . . We commit the fallacy of misplaced concreteness when we identify any object, conceptual or physical, as universally fundamental when, in fact, it only exemplifies selective categories of thought and ignores others. In modern science, the fallacy of misplaced concreteness usually takes the form of a fundamental reduction of some complex feature of nature—or even the universe itself—to some simpler framework. When that framework fails, it is replaced with a new reduction—a new misplaced concreteness, and the cycle repeats.

Scientific progress is marked by these cycles because “failure” doesn’t mean the reduction was entirely wrong; it just means it wasn’t as fundamental—as concrete—as previously supposed. Our understanding of nature does increase, just not at the expense of nature’s complexity. In this regard, the reductive mathematization of natural philosophy over the last 500 years has proven to be both its greatest strength and its greatest hazard. The fundamental objects of modern physics are no longer understood as material physical structures but rather as mathematical structures that produce physically measurable effects. The waves of quantum mechanics are not material-mechanical waves; they are mathematical probability waves. The “fabric” of spacetime in relativity theory is pure geometry.

With his “Mathematical Universe Hypothesis,” physicist Max Tegmark has concretized these and other examples of fundamental mathematical objects into a simple reduction: the universe is mathematics. In contemporary mathematical physics, he argues, there is no longer a distinction between a world described by mathematics and a world explained as mathematics. Tegmark characterizes physics as entailing nothing less than a one-to-one correspondence between physical reality and the mathematical structure by which we define this reality. “If our external physical reality is isomorphic to a mathematical structure,” he concludes, “it therefore fits the definition of being a mathematical structure… In other words, our successful theories are not mathematics approximating physics, but mathematics approximating mathematics.

The artful incoherence of “mathematics approximating mathematics” evinces the misplaced concreteness of the premise it presupposes... (MORE - details)​
 
By recognition. Others recognize what kind of experience we are talking about because they have had the same experience themselves.
The words doesn't produce the qualia, it makes us remember and associate to it. Since we only remember and associate to it, it cannot fully define what the qualia is that we are talking about. Hence people can see a different color for red than you and you would never know it. You can only express the association to the qualia, not the actual qualia. The actual qualia is without words and can't be defined (at least not according to our current knowledge of it).
Yes, this is clearly explained by Anil Seth. He cites that the brain makes a best guess of the incoming data, based on prior experience (memory).

An excellent illustration is this qualia that produces an optical illusion, which cannot be overridden by conscious thought.
800px-Checkershadow_double_med.jpg





I've seen my fair share of clips and videos about GPT3, very fascinating, but not the same process that produces human intelligence. There are a lot of differences.
I believe the PGT3 learning process is the same text based process as humans, but not yet quite as sophisticated, due to storage capacity. But that is a problem which can be solved.
You divert from what the GPT actually does. It does not experience anything. It can create sounds and all kind of data based on what it has trained on, but it is no different from the way that it can produce a sentence based on what sentence came before it. It is the full cornerstone of what GPT3 is. It is all based on having a lot of weighs based on training on datasets which makes it able to "predict" based on those weighs what comes next.
And how is this different from human brain making "best guesses" of incoming data?
There was no verification at that time, that is what I was saying. We can of course verify it today and ever since consciousness has existed, so you kind of missed the point.
The universe needs no human verification, humans do.
What do you mean by self-referential? Normally, as I understand it, self-referential systems examines it's own output to adjust for imperfections. Evolution doesn't work that way, it isn't referring to anything so I don't really know what you mean.
Evolution doesn't work that way, but Natural Selection does. The combination is responsible for all extant patterns in the universe.
Maybe you can elaborate on it?
What you cite is a self-aware system, which is the ultimate evolutionary state of a self-referential system.
Newton's Law of Motion addresses its fundamental beginning; " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" i.e. a fundamental self-referential process which acts in a non-random manner.
We know from the table of elements that all things have specific compound (atomic) values . It is logical and reasonable to propose that these values must interact with each other in a non-random way. Non-random = Mathematical = Quasi Intelligent (unconscious intelligent behavior)
CDT was a interesting read, don't know how it relates to this, but thanks for sharing the link.
UW.
To me the proposition that fundamental spacetime unfolds in a fractal (self-similar) manner strikes me as an important consideration in any discussion of non-random self-organization.
I don't see any advantage to having consciousness. Why couldn't a person without consciousness accomplish the very things that the person with consciousness accomplishes? That's why we often hear that it is a indirect result of the complexity of the brain, and emergent property, rather than something that evolution has produced from selection.
I agree completely and is the reason why there is a hierarchical evolutionary ordering of greater and more sophisticated consciousness along with complex brains, starting with photo-sensitive organisms.
The first proto-eyes evolved among animals 600 million years ago about the time of the Cambrian explosion. The last common ancestor of animals possessed the biochemical toolkit necessary for vision, and more advanced eyes have evolved in 96% of animal species in six of the ~35 main phyla.
....more
https://webvision.med.utah.edu/2014/07/evolution-of-sight-in-the-animal-kingdom/

And evolving with each generation from single celled organisms all the way up the evolutionary ladder to highly intelligent conscious animals (octopus, whales, dolphins, humans).

I equate evolved sensory refinement with greater ability to analyze and identify (and internalize) external reality.
I also like maths very much, but it's hard to know in what way mathematics exists, if it even has a existence beyond our use of it.
I don't think mathematics exist as a dimension, but more as a fundamental way things work. i.e. objects with specific values MUST interact via specific non-random (mathematical) functions.

As ex-bookkeeper, I don't bother with numbers and conscious counting. That's human stuff.

I believe in universal "specific generic values" and "ordered algebraic processes" (mathematical functions).

I really cannot understand the resistance to this excellent notion that would establish once and for all the "way the universe works".
 
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If I get confirmation of my perception from many sources and you get none, then you are delusional and I am confident my perspective has been confirmed.

This is the terrible double edge of the same sword. A mass delusion may appear truth to the mass, and will resist any factual evidence to the contrary.

This is the problem with theism. It's a mass delusion, contrary to verified scientific evidence.

And it is also true that the minority can be right and the majority is wrong .
 
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If I get confirmation of my perception from many sources and you get none, then you are delusional and I am confident my perspective has been confirmed.
This is the terrible double edge of the same sword. A mass delusion may appear truth to the mass, and will resist any factual evidence to the contrary.
This is the problem with theism. It's a mass delusion, contrary to verified scientific evidence.
It's not a mass delusion, though. To be a mass delusion, strictly, one must be able to demonstrate that it is not true. Science has not demonstrated that "God exists" is a false proposition. At best it can say "I don't know", and delusions are not determined by "I don't know". Delusions, afaiu, are belief in the face of contradicting reality. Reality can't prove God to not exist, hence belief that God exists - i.e. theism - is not delusional.

But this is a detour into religion, not really the thread topic, right?
 
Coincidentally, this last week...

The universe is not made of mathematics
https://iai.tv/articles/the-creative-universe-auid-1819

EXCERPT (Michael Epperson): . . . We commit the fallacy of misplaced concreteness when we identify any object, conceptual or physical, as universally fundamental when, in fact, it only exemplifies selective categories of thought and ignores others. In modern science, the fallacy of misplaced concreteness usually takes the form of a fundamental reduction of some complex feature of nature—or even the universe itself—to some simpler framework. When that framework fails, it is replaced with a new reduction—a new misplaced concreteness, and the cycle repeats.

Scientific progress is marked by these cycles because “failure” doesn’t mean the reduction was entirely wrong; it just means it wasn’t as fundamental—as concrete—as previously supposed. Our understanding of nature does increase, just not at the expense of nature’s complexity. In this regard, the reductive mathematization of natural philosophy over the last 500 years has proven to be both its greatest strength and its greatest hazard. The fundamental objects of modern physics are no longer understood as material physical structures but rather as mathematical structures that produce physically measurable effects. The waves of quantum mechanics are not material-mechanical waves; they are mathematical probability waves. The “fabric” of spacetime in relativity theory is pure geometry.

With his “Mathematical Universe Hypothesis,” physicist Max Tegmark has concretized these and other examples of fundamental mathematical objects into a simple reduction: the universe is mathematics. In contemporary mathematical physics, he argues, there is no longer a distinction between a world described by mathematics and a world explained as mathematics. Tegmark characterizes physics as entailing nothing less than a one-to-one correspondence between physical reality and the mathematical structure by which we define this reality. “If our external physical reality is isomorphic to a mathematical structure,” he concludes, “it therefore fits the definition of being a mathematical structure… In other words, our successful theories are not mathematics approximating physics, but mathematics approximating mathematics.

The artful incoherence of “mathematics approximating mathematics” evinces the misplaced concreteness of the premise it presupposes... (MORE - details)​

Highlighted

Disagree

I can take away the mathematics of anything physical and that physical will still exist , Galaxies , Stars etc . But take away the physical , the mathematics will also cease to exist .

Without the physical there is no mathematics , obviously , really .
 
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It's not a mass delusion, though. To be a mass delusion, strictly, one must be able to demonstrate that it is not true. Science has not demonstrated that "God exists" is a false proposition. At best it can say "I don't know", and delusions are not determined by "I don't know". Delusions, afaiu, are belief in the face of contradicting reality. Reality can't prove God to not exist, hence belief that God exists - i.e. theism - is not delusional.

But this is a detour into religion, not really the thread topic, right?
As atheist I consider the belief in a supernatural intelligent motivated being, delusional. I know science cannot commit to 100 % certainty, but I can.

The concept of a humanlike omnipotent God is IMO a human delusion, a conceptual contradiction, purely invented from human hubris.
 
River said:
The artful incoherence of “mathematics approximating mathematics” evinces the misplaced concreteness of the premise it presupposes... (MORE - details)
Highlighted
Disagree
I agree.
The author completely ignores the fact that the universe is a dynamic object and as with all other processes and function universal mathematics need not produce exact equivalencies. As long as universal mathematics act as guiding principles then perfection need not be achieved. There is no such thing as a perfect circle, but their sure is a circular tendency in say, cell formation, a spherical object caused by surface tension, etc. These are mathematically observable and translatable processes.
In their seeking of simplicity, scientists fall into error. They mistake their abstract concepts describing reality – for reality itself. The map for the territory. This leads to dogmatic overstatements, paradoxes and mysteries such as quantum gravity. To avoid such errors, we should evoke the thinking of philosopher Alfred North Whitehead and conceive of the universe as a universe-in-process, where physical relations beget new physical relations, writes Michael Epperson.

That entire paragraph is logically flawed. The author states that reductionism is erroneous? Is he proposing that "irreducible complexity" is an acceptable proposition?
He speaks of the pitfalls contained in abstract concepts and promptly resorts to a much more complicated abstract concept of "physical relations begetting new physical relations", as if physical relations is equal to consciousness?
And where does that consciousness resides? In thin air or inside the dark silent skull of a brained animal.

Reductionism


Description
Reductionism is any of several related philosophical ideas regarding the associations between phenomena, which can be described in terms of other simpler or more fundamental phenomena. It is also described as an intellectual and philosophical position that interprets a complex system as the sum of its parts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductionism

I believe it has been proven that a complex system acquires qualities which are greater than the sum of its parts.


Else we are right back to dualism and that is considerably more complex than the physical model.

The Many Fallacies of Dualism

By Brian Tomasik
First written: fall 2013. Last nontrivial update: 10 Nov 2017.

Summary
Many seeming puzzles in philosophy stem from platonism and dualism. These fundamental illusions are like
Capgras syndrome in that they persist in spite of no rational justification. They play central roles in confusions about consciousness, spiritual realms, free will, moral realism, and mathematical truth.
Physicalist monism dissolves these conundrums by postulating that there is just physics, and what we think of as platonic forms are merely concepts—"
clusters in thingspace"—that our material minds use to categorize and predict physical processes.
https://reducing-suffering.org/the-many-fallacies-of-dualism/
 
Yes, this is clearly explained by Anil Seth. He cites that the brain makes a best guess of the incoming data, based on prior experience (memory).

An excellent illustration is this qualia that produces an optical illusion, which cannot be overridden by conscious thought.
800px-Checkershadow_double_med.jpg
"cannot be overridden by conscious thought", it isn't easily overridden, but I would hesitate to say that it can't. Maybe it's harder for this particular illusion since it gives such a strong indicator for the color of the shadow, but there are several illusions where it is easier to override the illusion or change the way the illusion behaves by conscious thought.




I believe the PGT3 learning process is the same text based process as humans, but not yet quite as sophisticated, due to storage capacity. But that is a problem which can be solved.
Not merely due to storage capacity though, there are structural differences evolved for millions of years in the brain where it has already connections established, also the structures themselves are thought to have a function in intelligence. You can't really compare it to AI at this time. Sophistication is a pretty general term though, but if computers could simulate the structural component, then maybe we could get somewhere close.


And how is this different from human brain making "best guesses" of incoming data?
It is only part of the story, the brain is much more complex than that and also much more just different than that, where it also relies on structures and how much oxygen different parts receives and chemical actuators and all kind of things that the AI just doesn't do. Today AI can very accurately recognize the difference between different animals for example, but change the image in just the right way and it could just as well deem it to be a car or something completely different than that which is shown. There are similarities in certain ways between AI and the brain, and that is obvious since AI from the very start was made to mimic what the brain did but right now there are far more differences than similarities. And we still don't know where in all of this actual conscious experience begin to arise. If we don't understand how consciousness works, then we can't attribute it to the AI even though it says that it is conscious (because that would be the overwhelming response in the data set that it has). It just isn't intelligently making the judgement, it just looks at the data set that we feed it. It is very unlike when I say that I am conscious and you believe me cause we are basically made the same and we share the experience. How can we do that with the AI when we know that it is much more different than us? Today we can know that we can't trust it, because we know that it relies on what is in the dataset. It isn't describing that it is conscious based on the experience of being conscious, like we do. There might come a day where we don't know if we can trust it or not and that presents a moral dilemma for us.


The universe needs no human verification, humans do.
I think it does need some kind of foundation that discerns it from nothing. Without any consciousness (doesn't need to be human, or even similar to the human level of consciousness) there is fundamentally nothing since consciousness is the verification of existence and, to me, the closest thing that I can think of that is suitable as a foundation for existence. It is intrinsic to our own existence and by method of extrapolation could be intrinsic to all existence. There is a correlation but not necessarily a causation there, but it's still the best thing we have to go on. Seeing as we have no other alternative, this can at least be a world view that makes sense in many ways. I also see no way to test it, but having it as a alternative can direct us to how to test it when we become advanced enough to actually be able to understand consciousness and might find a way to apply a test to it for the universe and existence itself.


Evolution doesn't work that way, but Natural Selection does. The combination is responsible for all extant patterns in the universe. What you cite is a self-aware system, which is the ultimate evolutionary state of a self-referential system.
Newton's Law of Motion addresses its fundamental beginning; " for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" i.e. a fundamental self-referential process which acts in a non-random manner.
We know from the table of elements that all things have specific compound (atomic) values . It is logical and reasonable to propose that these values must interact with each other in a non-random way. Non-random = Mathematical = Quasi Intelligent (unconscious intelligent behavior)
I don't see any reference to itself. For every action is an equal and opposite reaction, but not a reference, I don't see how that reaction refers to itself, it is just the reaction (itself) propagating. But I'm not really familiar with the concept strictly physically the way that you seem to imply. I think of it, like the eye, has the ability to correct for light that comes in by adjusting the pupil. It is referencing the output of the input (the light) and adjusting to get a better image. Or better yet when the image is out of focus and it adjusts the lens until the image is in focus. It is referencing it's own output and adjusting for it. I'm not sure what to make of it in a strictly physical sense. To be honest I don't have anything particularly against it either, I just don't see the connection.



To me the proposition that fundamental spacetime unfolds in a fractal (self-similar) manner strikes me as an important consideration in any discussion of non-random self-organization.
Ok, well it was interesting.

I agree completely and is the reason why there is a hierarchical evolutionary ordering of greater and more sophisticated consciousness along with complex brains, starting with photo-sensitive organisms. ....more
https://webvision.med.utah.edu/2014/07/evolution-of-sight-in-the-animal-kingdom/

And evolving with each generation from single celled organisms all the way up the evolutionary ladder to highly intelligent conscious animals (octopus, whales, dolphins, humans).

I equate evolved sensory refinement with greater ability to analyze and identify (and internalize) external reality.
Since you see the basic "building block" of cause and effect as self-referential (still not sure how it applies but) do you then think that cause and effect is conscious in some primitive sense?

We really only know about our own consciousness, that's why we equate intelligence with consciousness, we also equate our complex brain to consciousness, but as we have no other example we should also look at the alternatives, we do know that low-intelligence people are also consciousness, and frankly I don't think it does anything to the level of consciousness that they possess. You can be "dumb" and very conscious. So...I think we shouldn't rule out any possibilities.


I don't think mathematics exist as a dimension, but more as a fundamental way things work. i.e. objects with specific values MUST interact via specific non-random (mathematical) functions.

As ex-bookkeeper, I don't bother with numbers and conscious counting. That's human stuff.
lol, a book-keeper is human too, but alright, let's continue...

I believe in universal "specific generic values" and "ordered algebraic processes" (mathematical functions).

I really cannot understand the resistance to this excellent notion that would establish once and for all the "way the universe works".
Well, things relate to each other, mathematics is a way to understand that relation. I'm not resisting per se, it's just that it has to have a discernable reality for me to call it something that exists. It exists as a theoretical concept, and the relations that it describes exist. I don't think we should be satisfied until we understand why the relations can be described by a certain mathematical function. Maybe we can never know? Then maybe, we should never be fully satisfied with our quest for knowledge.

Recently I found out that for any inverse square law the constant that comes before it partly consists of 4 times pi. So we have extracted some information even from the unchanging constants, and with the advent of quantum physics we also came to understand some of the other mathematical relations that before was only the mathematical relation (it is what it is) but now we know why it is. I expect more of this in the future as our knowledge increases.
 
Recently I found out that for any inverse square law the constant that comes before it partly consists of 4 times pi.
I think you expect that, though, don't you? I mean, on the basis that a constant amount of "influence" is spread out over the surface (=4πr²) of a sphere of radius r, around the source of the influence.
 
"cannot be overridden by conscious thought", it isn't easily overridden, but I would hesitate to say that it can't.
Oh, I agree with many optical illusions one can find some way to cancel the illusion. But as Anil Seth observes, in this particlar example which deals with an evolved survival mechanism of "shadowed objects", it is impossible to avoid the appearance of a difference in shade between squares A and B. The only way to avoid the false appearance is by a continuous block as illustrated. Remove the block and it looks different, no matter how many times and how hard you try. There is no possible way of telling the brain to view the two squares as identical as illustrated. I think it's one of the greatest optical illusions I have seen.
Since you see the basic "building block" of cause and effect as self-referential (still not sure how it applies but) do you then think that cause and effect is conscious in some primitive sense?
I believe that the concept of unconscious self-reference has an implied potential for an evolving conscious self-awareness.
We really only know about our own consciousness, that's why we equate intelligence with consciousness, we also equate our complex brain to consciousness, but as we have no other example we should also look at the alternatives, we do know that low-intelligence people are also consciousness, and frankly I don't think it does anything to the level of consciousness that they possess. You can be "dumb" and very conscious. So...I think we shouldn't rule out any possibilities.
Oh, I agree, IMO, consciousness already appears in very primitive organisms. I believe that it covers an hierarchy of awareness of self in relation to the environment.

It is fundamental to survival and natural selection usually selects for the most efficient awareness of one's environment . Consciousness itself is not an indication of general intelligence. I believe it is more a refinement of sensory abilities, which already starts with the brainless single celled paramecium and the remarkably smart slime mold.

There are many animals with specific sensory awareness that far outstrip human abilities. The Eagle's eyesight, the bloodhound's olfactory prowess, the insect's awareness of atmospheric pressure long before the thunder clouds move in. Or a mayfly that can call a mate from 20 miles away with pheromones when the wind is right and only has 24 hrs to live.

These are specialized abilities. But where humans lack natural ability we can build artificial measuring devices which are even more sophisticated than any specific naturally evolved ability. That is why we also have acquired the capability to destroy nature, rather than be part of the natural cycle.

But if we consider homeostasis, the "quasi intelligent" subconscious control mechanism that keeps most living organisms alive and in electro-chemical balance, and acts completely independent from conscious awareness, it becomes clear that consciousness and intelligence are not necessarily related. The only time the control system warns the conscious brain is when something goes wrong and we experience discomfort like pain, or sweat, or dizziness, yet it continues to control homeostasis even when the subject is under anesthesia and completely unconscious.

In short, I believe that consciousness is the evolved emergent result of ever greater sensory acuteness and sophistication, which produces a self-aware experience of sensory stimulation, along with the eletro-chemical responses to sensory stimulation of neurons.
 
For every action is an equal and opposite reaction, but not a reference, I don't see how that reaction refers to itself, it is just the reaction (itself) propagating. But I'm not really familiar with the concept strictly physically the way that you seem to imply. I think of it, like the eye, has the ability to correct for light that comes in by adjusting the pupil. It is referencing the output of the input (the light) and adjusting to get a better image. Or better yet when the image is out of focus and it adjusts the lens until the image is in focus. It is referencing it's own output and adjusting for it. I'm not sure what to make of it in a strictly physical sense. To be honest I don't have anything particularly against it either, I just don't see the connection.
Are Universal constants not self-referential algorithms?

I believe the Fibonacci Sequence is a beautiful naturally occurring example of a self-referential exponential function.

Consider;
In mathematics
In mathematics, iteration may refer to the process of iterating a function, i.e. applying a function repeatedly, using the output from one iteration as the input to the next. Iteration of apparently simple functions can produce complex behaviors and difficult problems – for examples, see the Collatz conjecture and juggler sequences.
Another use of iteration in mathematics is in iterative methods which are used to produce approximate numerical solutions to certain mathematical problems. Newton's method is an example of an iterative method. Manual calculation of a number's square root is a common use and a well-known example.
Iteration is the repetition of a process in order to generate an outcome. The sequence will approach some end point or end value. Each repetition of the process is a single iteration, and the outcome of each iteration is then the starting point of the next iteration.
In mathematics and computer science, iteration (along with the related technique of recursion) is a standard element of algorithms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iteration

"If <---> Then" seems to me a self referential function.

Where is self referential structure used?
A structure can have members which point to a structure variable of the same type. These types of structures are called self referential structures and are widely used in dynamic data structures like trees, linked list, etc.

Self Referential Structures and Linked Lists - NIELIT


And if my affinity to this concept is correct then IMO it logically would extend to evolutionary processes where self-referential processes evolve into consciously self-aware sensory processes in biological organisms.

If Abiogenesis ( life from chemicals) is a correct assumption of evolutionary processes , then why not emergent (consciousness from chemical reaction) by a similar process?[/quote]
 
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I think you expect that, though, don't you? I mean, on the basis that a constant amount of "influence" is spread out over the surface (=4πr²) of a sphere of radius r, around the source of the influence.
Yes, but the constant of G for example, wasn't constructed by us with that in mind, it was just measured, turns out that 4pi was part of it but disguised since that is also a constant. My point is that constants can have hidden relations within them that are also constants and because of that "hidden" until we understand it better.
 
Oh, I agree with many optical illusions one can find some way to cancel the illusion. But as Anil Seth observes, in this particlar example which deals with an evolved survival mechanism of "shadowed objects", it is impossible to avoid the appearance of a difference in shade between squares A and B. The only way to avoid the false appearance is by a continuous block as illustrated. Remove the block and it looks different, no matter how many times and how hard you try. There is no possible way of telling the brain to view the two squares as identical as illustrated. I think it's one of the greatest optical illusions I have seen.
Yes, but that doesn't apply to all illusions even of that type. It is indeed a very good illusion because it gives such a strong indications that the colors are different. Where the indication isn't that strong we could with conscious thought break the illusion.


I believe that the concept of unconscious self-reference has an implied potential for an evolving conscious self-awareness.
Ok, so do you believe that there is a gradient of consciousness, so that the more complex a system is, the more conscious it is? Would a computer then, using that logic, have some primitive consciousness? Or does it have to scale to the complexity of brains?


Oh, I agree, IMO, consciousness already appears in very primitive organisms. I believe that it covers an hierarchy of awareness of self in relation to the environment.
When I was a kid I was just as conscious as I am today. I didn't know as much, I didn't understand as much, but I was just as much conscious. It seems to me that consciousness has a pretty flat slope, seemingly a flat line from being a kid to adulthood, even though the brain has become more complex. Now, living things are generally much more complex than, a rock for example, but seeing that it doesn't change much, if at all, with change in complexity in humans, I wonder if it is such a big stretch to say that complex inorganic things have consciousness (such as computers, trees, rocks, etc.). What do you think about that?


It is fundamental to survival and natural selection usually selects for the most efficient awareness of one's environment . Consciousness itself is not an indication of general intelligence. I believe it is more a refinement of sensory abilities, which already starts with the brainless single celled paramecium and the remarkably smart slime mold.
Actually, we still don't know what role consciousness has, so to say that it is fundamental to survival would be jumping to conclusions. If information is qualia then it would be fundamental to survival, cause we need information to survive, but we don't know that it is. I believe it is, so I'm not particularly arguing against you, I believe that the foundation of everything is consciousness. But we have to separate belief from fact. Unlike you, I don't think that the foundation is just a building block to consciousness, I think it is consciousness and it takes different forms depending on the system. I also don't think cause & effect is the foundation, I think it goes deeper than that. I also don't think that consciousness needs self-reference, I think it is what is without reference. A true foundation.


There are many animals with specific sensory awareness that far outstrip human abilities. The Eagle's eyesight, the bloodhound's olfactory prowess, the insect's awareness of atmospheric pressure long before the thunder clouds move in. Or a mayfly that can call a mate from 20 miles away with pheromones when the wind is right and only has 24 hrs to live.

These are specialized abilities. But where humans lack natural ability we can build artificial measuring devices which are even more sophisticated than any specific naturally evolved ability. That is why we also have acquired the capability to destroy nature, rather than be part of the natural cycle.

But if we consider homeostasis, the "quasi intelligent" subconscious control mechanism that keeps most living organisms alive and in electro-chemical balance, and acts completely independent from conscious awareness, it becomes clear that consciousness and intelligence are not necessarily related. The only time the control system warns the conscious brain is when something goes wrong and we experience discomfort like pain, or sweat, or dizziness, yet it continues to control homeostasis even when the subject is under anesthesia and completely unconscious.

In short, I believe that consciousness is the evolved emergent result of ever greater sensory acuteness and sophistication, which produces a self-aware experience of sensory stimulation, along with the eletro-chemical responses to sensory stimulation of neurons.
Ok, given your premises, it makes sense that you should believe that. Do you think that this building block of cause & effect that consciousness eventually emerge from when scaling up to complex brains, could also scale up to, for example, the earth (as one system of great complexity)? What could we do to prove/disprove that?
 
Are Universal constants not self-referential algorithms?

I believe the Fibonacci Sequence is a beautiful naturally occurring example of a self-referential exponential function.

Consider;
In mathematics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iteration

"If <---> Then" seems to me a self referential function.

Where is self referential structure used?

Self Referential Structures and Linked Lists - NIELIT


And if my affinity to this concept is correct then IMO it logically would extend to evolutionary processes where self-referential processes evolve into consciously self-aware sensory processes in biological organisms.

If Abiogenesis ( life from chemicals) is a correct assumption of evolutionary processes , then why not emergent (consciousness from chemical reaction) by a similar process?
Thanks for the link. I don't know if the Universal constants are self-referential, usually they are seen as "it is what it is", I do believe that they are composed of other constants that can be derived though, but we don't know what those constants are for most of the Universal constants. It's then hard to say that it is self-referential when it, as far as we can tell, are the one thing that is not referencing anything within. Fibonacci sequence and fractals are all self-referential, that much I can see, I can also conceive of crystals as self-referential structures - but I'm not that knowledgeable about crystals, so I can't say for sure. I just think that we should be careful to use words without fully knowing how it actually applies to the context that we use them, or to arrive at a conclusion where the premise is our own wording and not what it actually is (if you know what I mean?).

I don't think we can necessarily equate the two (abiogenesis to life and chemicals to emergent consciousness), we need to derive both separately to understand what we are doing, they aren't one to one correlated (and even if they were they aren't necessarily causally correlated).
 
Ok, so do you believe that there is a gradient of consciousness, so that the more complex a system is, the more conscious it is? Would a computer then, using that logic, have some primitive consciousness? Or does it have to scale to the complexity of brains?
I believe in proto- consciousness. i.e. responses to sensory stimulation already present in very primitive organisms. The fundamental fight or flight response has evolved in so many different ways. It always comes down to natural selection of that behavior which gives the organism a higher survival probability. Time does the rest.
Consider a cuttlefish which has the perfect dual technique of shape shifting in a perfect blend with the environment, successfully hiding from predators and at the same time offer a hunting advantage of ambush.


According to the GPT3 developers the limit has not yet been reached and they believe that with more capacity and inter-referential connections, an AI may acquire a form of consciousness that is not necessary connected to emotional chemistry, but more on a logical level, what Vulcans strived to attain in StarTrek

I think that the breakthrough occurred with the concept of text based algorithms, where the AI can access any definitions, synonyms, and antonyms of words and sentences and learn to use express itself in "context", rather than pure binary number data processing.

Ask a GPT3 to design a welcome page with a Google logo and it will design it, but at the same time it will write the code that designs it and when modifications are desired of the original, the AI will promptly execute the requested modification along with a modification in the code. It will design a number of pictures based on a simple premise, such as "design a chair that looks like an avocado.
avocado-upres.jpg



GPT3 is not anything like Siri or Alexa . GPT3 learns from illustrated text books just like humans and applies what it learns in real time responses. What is there to stop GPT3 from acquiring artificial conscious intelligence?

I believe consciousness intelligence is not only an ability to observe, but also very much connected with understanding the thing that is being observed. And I believe AI can rise to that level if it is taught as if it were human. It takes a human to learn conscious intelligence (IQ) some 18 years to fully develop. Give GPT3 that amount of time and large numbers of Memory and RAM and it will essentially gain the same "understanding" as humans.
 
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