How to be saved as a Christian - Faith vs. Works

persol

Yes, and this is a problem. Either the Bible is not as strict about it as people try to point out, or God is unfair.

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Sorry, I answered this already, but it was in another thread

In my oppinion, You will only be judged on the amount of truth..God...Word you know.

God is not unfair...........why do you hurry to such conclusions.


"where much is known, much shall be required."
 
Re: persol

Originally posted by TheVisitor
In my oppinion, You will only be judged on the amount of truth..God...Word you know.
The bible contradicts this. James 2:10 claims that committing 1 sin is as bad as committing all of them. Romans 10:1-5 further explains 'being ignorant of God'. That doesn't of course mean that those lines are correct.

God is not unfair...........why do you hurry to such conclusions.
I'm not hurrying anywhere. All I'm saying is that if people are kept out simple for not having faith in Jesus it's unfair.
 
persol

In my oppinion, You will only be judged on the amount of truth..God...Word you know.
The bible contradicts this. James 2:10 claims that committing 1 sin is as bad as committing all of them. Romans 10:1-5 further explains 'being ignorant of God'. That doesn't of course mean that those lines are correct.

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As I've said, your conclusions drawn from these scriptures alone are not what the scriptrures say as a whole

The whole scripture is One Voice.

They all together paint the "picture"

God is rich in mercy, He has thought of these things...

Your statement " That doesn't of course mean that those lines are correct. "...........implies you don't believe in them, even after hearing.

You shouldn't be so worried about the "poor souls" who havn't heard...

What will you do with what "that" you have...

The hour is getting late.
 
Re: persol

Originally posted by TheVisitor
As I've said, your conclusions drawn from these scriptures alone are not what the scriptrures say as a whole
Of course not... it's what that section says.

The whole scripture is One Voice.
Actually no. Christians like to say this, but the book was written by various people and translated by even more.

Your statement " That doesn't of course mean that those lines are correct. "...........implies you don't believe in them, even after hearing.
Don't believe everything you hear.

You shouldn't be so worried about the "poor souls" who havn't heard...
I'm not, because I believe if the Bible does have any truth in it, it was modified to appear as the only viable religion. The problem is that the Bible states in some places that only faith in Jesus will 'save' you, in which case most of the world doesn't even have a chance. You can not just decide to ignore some parts and believe other parts based on what you want to be true.

What will you do with what "that" you have...
huh?
 
You can not just decide to ignore some parts and believe other parts based on what you want to be true.

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Exactly,

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

See.. During the "millineum, the saints are given judgement of the world and anyone without "THE MARK" of the beast, which means they've heard the truth already, and turned it down, will be given a chance at judgement..........

Such as the "heathen nations" of other religions who haven't heard of Jesus Christ and the Gosphel.

God's rich in Mercy.......isn't He...?...........:)
 
Re: SanDolphin61

Originally posted by TheVisitor
I use the King James Version from 1611



I didn't mean I had one personally that old.....I Wish !
I meant it was translated in 1611.......[/]

LOL!! You know my mind must have been somewhere else
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Does it not stand to reason that if the bible is not %100 accurate one could inadvertanly send millions to hell?
Not if you are coming to it wanting to understand, wanting to know GOD. The Holy Spirit will lead you to the TRUTH. Every person is responsible for seeking the TRUTH themselves. Not, sitting around waiting for a person to tell you the TRUTH. I wanted to know GOD not disprove GOD. I knew GOD existed (in my heart).

A single letter, Saton instead of Satan, could mean two different beings. But the missunderstanding could lead many to believe that that one did things the other did.
Again the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to those who truly want it. However it is MY responsibility to get rid of a Bible that is total mistranslation throughout (as the NIV). I know the old arguments about the King James version. I still prefer it among the many other translations. There is also the Strongs Concordance if you want to clarify a word or phrase.
 
Re: Re: persol


I'm not hurrying anywhere. All I'm saying is that if people are kept out simple for not having faith in Jesus it's unfair.

Why would you deny the Son when it was the Father that sent him?
Knowing of Jesus and denying him is denying the Father also.
Those who know of Jesus and deny he was of the Father are also denying the Father.
Those who do not know of Jesus do not fall under this.
 
Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by SanDolphin61
Why would you deny the Son when it was the Father that sent him?
First, I am not sure this is the truth. Even if it is, that doesn't mean I should worship him over God.

Knowing of Jesus and denying him is denying the Father also.
That is nice to say, but it doesn't make it correct.

Those who know of Jesus and deny he was of the Father are also denying the Father.
You'd agree that we can not fully know God... the worst that happens is I'm ust ignoring a different part then you.

Those who do not know of Jesus do not fall under this.
And you base this on what? The Bible is not clear about this. If your are actually correct, the best thing for others would be to not spread the word of Jesus so that people are not refused salvation just because they didn't believe you.
 
Re: Re: persol

The bible contradicts this. James 2:10 claims that committing 1 sin is as bad as committing all of them.
This is talking about observing the Letter of the Law but doing no works. Saying you have Faith but no fruits to show for it. Having riches and knowing someone who is poor and not helping them. For if they truly knew the word it would show in their works. I see no contradiction here.



Romans 10:1-5 further explains 'being ignorant of God'. That doesn't of course mean that those lines are correct.
This is again about the difference between the righteousness of the law and of faith and about those with Zeal not submitting to the righteousness of GOD.
If the Law is merely rules for to obey then you will have no fruits. If the Law is the living word within you than it will show by the works of the one who it is living in.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: persol

Why would you deny the Son when it was the Father that sent him?

First, I am not sure this is the truth. Even if it is, that doesn't mean I should worship him over God.

The Son and the Father are the same

Knowing of Jesus and denying him is denying the Father also.

That is nice to say, but it doesn't make it correct.

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and
understand, that the Father is in me and I in him. There are many verses where he states he and the Father are the same. If you want me to I will look these up for you.

Those who know of Jesus and deny he was of the Father are also denying the Father.

You'd agree that we can not fully know God... the worst that happens is I'm ust ignoring a different part then you.

Yes I agree........but we are talking about something very specific here when we are talking about the knowledge of Christ and the denial that he and the Father are one.

Those who do not know of Jesus do not fall under this.

And you base this on what? The Bible is not clear about this. If your are actually correct, the best thing for others would be to not spread the word of Jesus so that people are not refused salvation just because they didn't believe you.

The Bible is very clear that if you know Jesus and you deny him he will deny you. I am not making an assumption here. The Bible says this. If you want me to recite Chapter and verse I will find it for you.
 
Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by SanDolphin61
[James 2:10] is talking about observing the Letter of the Law but doing no works.
It is trying to reinforce 'love they neighbour', and puts no conditions on the 'guilty of all'

Saying you have Faith but no fruits to show for it. Having riches and knowing someone who is poor and not helping them. For if they truly knew the word it would show in their works.
It does say this but line 10 is very specific and the rest does not conditionalize it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by SanDolphin61
The Son and the Father are the same
This has been strongly debated on both sides, and there is no go argument on either side.

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and
understand, that the Father is in me and I in him. There are many verses where he states he and the Father are the same. If you want me to I will look these up for you.
Yes I realize that there are passages that imply they are 1 in the same. I had a similar argument with TheVisitor (or maybe TruthSeeker), and had to find a quote to support his argument for him. Most of these however boil down to 'being one with God' which I do not take be 'being God'.

The Bible is very clear that if you know Jesus and you deny him he will deny you. I am not making an assumption here. The Bible says this. If you want me to recite Chapter and verse I will find it for you.
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't want to worship a God who forsakes people soley because they are skeptical.
However, I would like to see a reference as to where it says "Those who do not know of Jesus do not fall under this".
 
However, I would like to see a reference as to where it says "Those who do not know of Jesus do not fall under this".

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Revelation 20:4-8


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


This implies the Saints will be given judgement of the earth and the peoples who never received the MARK of the beast - heard the truth and turned it down......

For example.. John 6:66...(666) Number of a man...

" From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him"


Will be given a chance to hear....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by Persol
Originally posted by SanDolphin61
[James 2:10] is talking about observing the Letter of the Law but doing no works.
It is trying to reinforce 'love they neighbour', and puts no conditions on the 'guilty of all'

Saying you have Faith but no fruits to show for it. Having riches and knowing someone who is poor and not helping them. For if they truly knew the word it would show in their works.
It does say this but line 10 is very specific and the rest does not conditionalize it.
Click to expand...

his is talking about those who only obey the letter of the Law, so because the word did not live in them they wouldn't love their neighbor as thyself. They would do works to look good not because they had the living word in them and that it had changed their hearts. They would obey the Law but not because they knew God .......and verse 10 is what they will get if they try to be like this. If they try to obey the Law because of this then if they stumble once in the Law they are guilty of all.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by Persol
Originally posted by SanDolphin61
The Son and the Father are the same
This has been strongly debated on both sides, and there is no go argument on either side.

You seem to think I am debating here. I know this. It is written in my heart. It's not open to debate for me. Christ was the Word in the flesh. I will answer to the other 2 things but first must get something to eat.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by SanDolphin61
You seem to think I am debating here. I know this. It is written in my heart. It's not open to debate for me. Christ was the Word in the flesh. I will answer to the other 2 things but first must get something to eat.
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Well just have to agree to disagree on this point then. Enjoy your food:)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: persol

Originally posted by Persol
Originally posted by SanDolphin61
The Son and the Father are the same

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and
understand, that the Father is in me and I in him. There are many verses where he states he and the Father are the same. If you want me to I will look these up for you.
Yes I realize that there are passages that imply they are 1 in the same. I had a similar argument with TheVisitor (or maybe TruthSeeker), and had to find a quote to support his argument for him. Most of these however boil down to 'being one with God' which I do not take be 'being God'.

Rev 19:11-16
11 and I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD. 14 and the armies which were in heaven followed him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

This is describing The Lamb, The Lion of The Tribe of Juda, the Root of David, Emmanuel, The Good Shepherd, The Faithful and True, Jesus ,who is the word of God come in the flesh, God manifest in the flesh. If you have read the Old and New Testament. I don't know how you could take it any other way.


However, I would like to see a reference as to where it says "Those who do not know of Jesus do not fall under this".

I see that the Visitor has already addressed this and will spare repeating it to you. All will know in the end.
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