I never said you said they could. You said time travel is science fiction. I made my post and then you said this "The speed of light is constant; you can't change it by moving "away from" your own frame of reference." So I thought you didn't understand what I wrote. Apparently I didn't get what you were saying either. Maybe you could run it buy me again?
Gravity Works Like This
- Thread starter Farsight
- Start date
I never said you said they could. You said time travel is science fiction. I made my post and then you said this "The speed of light is constant; you can't change it by moving "away from" your own frame of reference." So I thought you didn't understand what I wrote. Apparently I didn't get what you were saying either. Maybe you could run it buy me again?
I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what abstraction means in this case. Probably under any case. I think he thinks there's something wrong with models because they only model reality. This is reality. The model is real phenomena regardless what he thinks. He sure knows what obfuscation means.
So what Penrose and Einstein have said about 'time' hasn't sunk in yet? Figures.
Your fantasy beliefs in 'time travel' and abstract space-time math model, as Einstein explained was abstraction leaving behind real things, is still real thing to your comic book level 'handle' on things? Figures.
Poor paddo, never grew out of his "Santa is real!" belief stage. "Warp Drive, Mr Sulu!" Lol.
Please, think of the children!
Hi brucep. 
Mate, you and paddo always "seem "pretty sure" and/or "certain" alot. Until you are shown you are missing the point and/or don't know squat about real things at all, for which you seem to mistake 'abstractions' and 'maths' as if they were the reality.
FYI from Einstein...
Mate, you and paddo always "seem "pretty sure" and/or "certain" alot. Until you are shown you are missing the point and/or don't know squat about real things at all, for which you seem to mistake 'abstractions' and 'maths' as if they were the reality.
FYI from Einstein...
The only 'child' posting (and apparently not really reading properly) here is paddoboy by all indications from his history/silliness. And if he really IS 'married' as he claims, then it's high time he learned there is no 'Santa Claus' for real. How old were you when your parents/others let slip the reality of "No Santa Clause", Beer?
PhysBang
You cannot even describe a single event, much less a series of events that we call movement, without designating a point in time in the description. When someone says they saw an explosion, for example, you can look all you like at that point in space but unless you did so at the exact moment when the explosion occurred you will not see that event. IE there can be no event without a time to occur within. There is no way to describe an event without including a specific time or series of times(as well as locations in space). The time is the stage upon which events occur, it is in no way inhibited by anyone's inability to measure it(which is all movement does, give you a means to measure it).
brucep
Rather, the time travel rate(into the future)is invariant to you within your own frame. You will always see your own rate of travel into the future as being the same, as will all clocks that are within that frame. That is an actual physical property. All frames see themselves as the "normal" ones, everyone else's frame is the one that looks dilated.
Grumpy
Every measurement is an invariant in the local proper frame. That's the frame we are always in. Proper time and length are invariant. Still we sometime choose to evaluate remote spacetime events from our local proper frame. This evaluation isn't invariant. It's frame dependent. Basically really simple stuff that has a propensity to be misconstrued.
I find what the great Educator Carl Sagan said as close to the mark, and what most here agree with......
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http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/time_travel/esp_ciencia_timetravel25.htm
Understanding Time
Astronomer Carl Sagan had it right when he said that time is "resistant to simple definition." Lots of us think we know what time is, but it is hard to define. You can not literally see or touch time, but you can see its effects.
The evidence that we are moving through time is found in everything - our bodies age, buildings weather and crumble, trees grow. Most of us feel the pressure of time as we are pushed to meet deadlines and make appointments. Our lives are often dictated by what time we need to be somewhere.
Ask most people to define time and they are likely to look at their watch or a clock. We see time as the ticking of the hands on these devices. We know that there are 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year. These are the basic numbers of time that we all learned in grade school.
Time is also defined as being the fourth dimension of our universe. The other three dimensions are of space, including up-down, left-right and backward-forward. Time cannot exist without space, and likewise, space cannot exist without time. This interconnected relationship of time and space is called the spacetime continuum, which means that any event that occurs in the universe has to involve both space and time.
According to Einstein's theory of special relativity, time slows as an object approaches the speed of light. This leads many scientists to believe that traveling faster than the speed of light could open up the possibility of time travel to the past as well as to the future.
The problem is that the speed of light is believed to be the highest speed at which something can travel, so it is unlikely that we will be able to travel into the past. As an object nears the speed of light, its relativistic mass increases until, at the speed of light, it becomes infinite. Accelerating an infinite mass any faster than that is impossible, or at least it seems to be right now.
But time travel in the other direction is not as difficult, and the future may one day be a possible destination...
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
also....
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Time Travel Physics
As we discussed earlier, the theory of relativity states that as the velocity of an object nears the speed of light, time slows down. Scientists have discovered that even at the speeds of the space shuttle, astronauts can travel a few nanoseconds into the future. To understand this, picture two people, person A and person B. Person A stays on Earth, while person B takes off in a spacecraft.
At takeoff, their watches are in perfect sync. The closer person B's spacecraft travels to the speed of light, the slower time will pass for person B (relative to person A). If person B travels for just a few hours at 50 percent the speed of light and returns to Earth, it will be obvious to both people that person A has aged much faster than person B.
This difference in aging is because time passed much faster for person A than person B, who was traveling closer to the speed of light. Many years might have passed for person A, while person B experienced a time lapse of just a few hours.
same link:
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/time_travel/esp_ciencia_timetravel25.htm
Understanding Time
Astronomer Carl Sagan had it right when he said that time is "resistant to simple definition." Lots of us think we know what time is, but it is hard to define. You can not literally see or touch time, but you can see its effects.
The evidence that we are moving through time is found in everything - our bodies age, buildings weather and crumble, trees grow. Most of us feel the pressure of time as we are pushed to meet deadlines and make appointments. Our lives are often dictated by what time we need to be somewhere.
Ask most people to define time and they are likely to look at their watch or a clock. We see time as the ticking of the hands on these devices. We know that there are 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year. These are the basic numbers of time that we all learned in grade school.
Time is also defined as being the fourth dimension of our universe. The other three dimensions are of space, including up-down, left-right and backward-forward. Time cannot exist without space, and likewise, space cannot exist without time. This interconnected relationship of time and space is called the spacetime continuum, which means that any event that occurs in the universe has to involve both space and time.
According to Einstein's theory of special relativity, time slows as an object approaches the speed of light. This leads many scientists to believe that traveling faster than the speed of light could open up the possibility of time travel to the past as well as to the future.
The problem is that the speed of light is believed to be the highest speed at which something can travel, so it is unlikely that we will be able to travel into the past. As an object nears the speed of light, its relativistic mass increases until, at the speed of light, it becomes infinite. Accelerating an infinite mass any faster than that is impossible, or at least it seems to be right now.
But time travel in the other direction is not as difficult, and the future may one day be a possible destination...
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
also....
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Time Travel Physics
As we discussed earlier, the theory of relativity states that as the velocity of an object nears the speed of light, time slows down. Scientists have discovered that even at the speeds of the space shuttle, astronauts can travel a few nanoseconds into the future. To understand this, picture two people, person A and person B. Person A stays on Earth, while person B takes off in a spacecraft.
At takeoff, their watches are in perfect sync. The closer person B's spacecraft travels to the speed of light, the slower time will pass for person B (relative to person A). If person B travels for just a few hours at 50 percent the speed of light and returns to Earth, it will be obvious to both people that person A has aged much faster than person B.
This difference in aging is because time passed much faster for person A than person B, who was traveling closer to the speed of light. Many years might have passed for person A, while person B experienced a time lapse of just a few hours.
same link:
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Here's some more great Carl Sagan educational videos....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMpC4tWhJZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMpC4tWhJZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-db4iC0aHw
Some pretty good science educators around at present, Neil De-Grasse Tyson, Brian Cox, Brian Green Michio Kaku, but I still don't see any of them holding a candle to Sagan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMpC4tWhJZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMpC4tWhJZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-db4iC0aHw
Some pretty good science educators around at present, Neil De-Grasse Tyson, Brian Cox, Brian Green Michio Kaku, but I still don't see any of them holding a candle to Sagan.
Well, suppose you're measuring the speed of light, and you can also travel into your own future (i.e. "away from" your proper frame), how would the measurement be affected if you did travel "forward in time", at "the same time"?brucep said:
Yeesh.
Wow that would be weird. This is fun reading from Kip Thorne. He's known for his analysis on this stuff. Among other good stuff.
Is time travel allowed?
http://plus.maths.org/content/time-travel-allowed
When Sagan was writing Contact he picked Thorne's mind for help with the wormhole. I just love that story.
Have you read Black Holes and Time Warps?
I am also familiar with the story re Sagan seeking advice from Thorne on time travel and worm holes.
So, paddo, all you and your trolling mates have is exchanging FAN notes about "stories" of unreal things dreamed up by speculative writers for science fiction/fantasy? And you prefer that to real explanations of real things? And doing so while completely ignoring Penrose and Einstein and other Nobel Laureates and others whom you in your 'wisdom' as SCIFI FANS consider are "wrong". Wow!
So, paddo, all you and your trolling mates have is exchanging FAN notes about "stories" of unreal things dreamed up by speculative writers for science fiction/fantasy? And you prefer that to real explanations of real things? And doing so while completely ignoring Penrose and Einstein and other Nobel Laureates and others whom you in your 'wisdom' as SCIFI FANS consider are "wrong". Wow!
I'm mortified!!! :bawl:
Fanboy is mortified. You heard it here first, folks. Fanboy thinks anyone cares a fig here about Fanboy storytelling exchanging "stories" about their SCIFI idols. Talk about bizarre INSENSIBILITY to their own absurdity. Dense as Singularities indeed. Wow.
RC
Actually, they weren't wrong, you are.
Grumpy
C'mon ya Grumpy old bastard, don't spoil the poor sap's day! nudge, nudge, wink, wink
Pssst...undefined, no one is paying any attention to you.....and in a couple of hours I will be going out to dinner so you wont have me to play with anymore.
Other odds and ends to do in between time also.....
How do you get to spend your full time at the computer?
You have 10 ToE's to clip and keep in order.
cue: Anyone's guess..
'RC
Actually, they weren't wrong, you are.
Grumpy
Shall I quote you where paddo said they were wrong, Grumpy? Or can you find it yourself in paddo's garbage history.
PS: Poor paddo. More sycophantic desperation to make himself look relevant to those on either 'side'. You're obviously an embarrassment to both 'sides', paddo. Too thick to see it for yourself still?