Global warming is it really happening

Originally posted by Banshee
<font color=blue>Hi Edufer, nice to see a person from Argentina at the Sci Forums, welcome.
<I>So in your country temperatures are no good either? It doesn't belong to be so cool in this time of year?</I></font>

Temperatures are good, but they have not been the high ones we usually had in past decades. It has been cooling down (in the high range), but that probably is due to an increase in humidity in our microclima at the center of Argentina. As I posted before, the erection of big dams in the southwest and big dams in the northeast (Yaciret&aacute; and Itaip&uacute; in Brazil), right in the axis of prevailing winds SW-->NE (cold and humid now) and NE-->SW (warm and extremely humid now), buffers the extreme temperatures, so we have not the high temps of past decades. This would also buffer the cold ones, but unfortunately this is not the case, as every year in record seem to be colder than the previous. This last winter we had the worst snow blizzards in history, with thousand of trucks getting blocked in the Patagonia and the Andes Cordillera pass to Chile. So here we might be seeing a "smoking gun" of a incoming cooling --not an Ice Age, but a cooling trend in the Southern Hemisphere.

<font color=blue><I>I do not agree with your point that we go back to medieval temperatures, it is not so.</I></font>

Depends on which Medieval temperatures. Certainly not the <b>Medieval Little Ice Age</b> of 1250 to 1850, but I hope we could get at the <b>Medieval Climate Optimum</B> of 800 - 1250 AD, <b><font color=red>when the global media was 2°C higher than today.</font></B> Ever wondered why climatologists call that era the "Climatic Optimum"? Because those are the best temperatures suitable for human, animal and vegetal life on Earth. The conditions set by those temperatures allowed the coming of the Renaissance and a boom of human activity all over the world.

Then came a severe cooling (caused by the Maunder and Spoerer Minima of solar activity) that sunk humanity into the Dark Ages. All kinds of calamities happened then, from the Black Plague to the Holy Inquisition, extended famines and depopulatin of the northern areas in Europe. People didn´t like it cold. Not then, not today.

<font color=blue><I>Through the ages, the Earths crust moved, slowly and not noticable, but Earth moved. The Poles are on another degrees of longitude and latitude these days. That happens through the years. So it comes that even the meridian is moved. The degrees of longitude and latitude change every day a very, very little, you can't even notice it, so slowly. But it happens. And through the ages, land moved with Earth, but not at the same 'speed', you see.</I></font>

I am aware of the tectonic movements, and the shift of Earth axis, the slight change in the precession of the equinoxes, changes in the magnetic field, etc. But this has been happening so slowly --at geological scale-- that has been barely noticeable during the past 10,000 years. Since then we came out of the last glaciation and went into the Holocen. Now we are getting close to the end of the Holocene and back into a new glacial era. Milantkovitch proved that in the thirties, and until now that seems to be the "sacred words" for climatologists. Human activities have nothing to do with any increase in global temperatures. As much man can be "destroying" the environment, assuming we can alter Earth climate is an expression of arrogancy from our part.

About the rest you tell me, I find you seem to be a sensible person worried about all the catastrophes "perceived" and denounced by enviromental groups. There is little we can discuss here, when emotion prevail over science and verified evidence. <b>Perception</B> is quite different from <b>observation</B>, and as science (or "knowledge") is based fundamentally in repeated observation of events, emotional arguments can not be tested against verified facts. There is no ground for comparison. Apples and horses...

<font color=blue><i>The mess people leave behind. There are ashtrays there to throw your garbage in. But no. Why? Lets throw it in the woods. Plastic bags, everything. I hate it, humans acting like nothing cares but they themselves. And you go on thinking that it is not so bad. It is bad, look and listen...
Maybe then, you people will understand what I mean.</I></font>

I understand very well how you feel and what you mean. I share your contempt for careless people throwing garbage everywhere. But that is a matter of education. Children must be taught to keep a clean bedroom, a clean kitchen, a clean environment. We must teach children sciences and philosophy, we must teach children <b>how to LEARN</B>, how to use their brains effectively, and not how to hug a tree or kiss a whale every morning. If we want mankind, the human species, to survive on this planet we must act intelligently, and try to better ourselves in all possible manners, materially and spiritually. Quite a task!
If you know it all so very well, why don't you start with yourself then?
And be some friendlier, because you do not know me, and you can call me whatever you want, I don't care.
Haha, you make me laugh.
You sound like a teacher who did just lose his job because of knowing to little about the subject he is talking about.
Believe me.
I am not just a tree kisser or a whale kisser or what so ever.
Though, I love to kiss a whale, wish the oppotunity was there, I would do it in a second, I love whales.
And no, I am not such an intellct like you maybe, but man, what way off you are here.
Guess you better read and learn about people you take down without knowing any more of them then just one reply.
Have a nice day.;)
Hi Edufer:

We need a few Renaissance people in the age of specialization. Welcome to the group. - and keep up the good work....
Originally posted by Banshee
<font color=blue>If you know it all so very well, why don't you start with yourself then? </B></font>

If I knew all so well, I would be a millionaire. Sadly, I´m not. Perhaps I´m not that good at practical things as balancing a budget. I have being trying to improve myself all my life, but according to you it has been unsuccessful. However, I will keep trying; harder every day.

<font color=blue><b>And be some friendlier, because you do not know me, and you can call me whatever you want, I don't care. Haha, you make me laugh.</b></font>

My apologies if you think I have offended you, though I couldn´t find where I called you names or said a word that can be interpreted as offensive or scornful or disdainful. On the contrary, I thought you were a sensible person worried (and concerned) by the "perceived destruction" on the environment. As I must judge by what you wrote, I thought you were sensible. Now I think you are <b>hyper-sensitive and prone to overreact with emotional bursts</B>. Keep talking and I might get to know you even better. It makes me happy if I make you laugh; nothing nicer than giving people a moment of joy.

<font color=blue><b>Believe me. I am not just a tree kisser or a whale kisser or what so ever. Though, I love to kiss a whale, wish the opportunity was there, I would do it in a second, I love whales.</B></font>

I love whales too, but not as much as love human beings, especially those unfortunates living in Third World countries, prey of greedy and corrupt politicians, multinational corporations and colonialist governments. Don´t take me wrong: I am not leftist at all. On the contrary.

<font color=blue><B>And no, I am not such an intellect like you maybe, but man, what way off you are here. Guess you better read and learn about people you take down without knowing any more of them then just one reply. Have a nice day.;)

Thanks you for considering me an intellectual (I wish I was). I have been reading (in five languages) since I was 11 years old, infected by a rare virus transmitted by my father, that provokes the syndrome of <font color=red><b>Quest for Truth</B></font>. Vain task, if there is one. You´ll never get even close to it. Ever. But the joy of the road to knowledge makes life worth living. And having children to whom you can pass this nasty virus.

By the way, in your profile you state: <font color=blue>"paranormal items; ufo's; the universe; all the unexplained and read a book by S. King"</font>.

I love unexplained things (because I like to get closer to the Truth, remember?). Have you ever heard about the <b>"stones of Ica"</B>, also known as <b>"the stones of Ocucaje"</B>, engraved stones found in the Ica Desert, Per&uacute;?. They are more than 65,000,000 year old, and depict men hunting dinosaurs, and heart transplants too. They have been proven as authentic. Or the Paracas Mantle, a piece of robe more than 3,000 years old, where you´ll find a perfect lesson on genetics: the description of <b>"syndactilia"</B>, the syndrome of absence of thumbs in a family, transmitted by the males and updated by the mother.

If interested, I could give you links and email you pictures (.gif and .jpg) of these mysterious things.

Keep cool, have a nice Belgian lambic (sorry if you are Dutch) and stop worrying. Enjoy life! We had two days in a row of beautiful shining sun, and temperatures here might go back to normal.
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Well, I am sorry to tell you, but yes, I know of these items you mention.
I do love whales and other animals much more then humans.
Maybe that is just for me to decide.
I see what we humans do to this world, given to us to live on, the best we can.
Not to make a big mess from Nature and we are sure not here to pollute everything with our garbage.
That means all the oil, floating in the Sea's and Oceans, when a big tanker is going down at Sea or Ocean. All the oil comes to beaches, and kills all life on its way. Even at the beaches the oil kills the animals. All doing of humans.
This is just one, just one thing, humans do to Earth, then I do not talk about the mess they make with their stupid wars.
So, I see you love to quote. I am glad you quote me in the color 'blue', I love the color 'blue'.
Thank you and be welcome at Sci forums.
You make good discussions.
Talk to you later.
in AMERICA millions of dollars are spent over weather research,still the future predictions are not very accurate .how can we then predict the climate correctly for the warming has been going on since the time of ice ages.the rate HAS been the same throughout.arent those millions of dollars the only reason for envoirnmentalists to caution us about global warming?
kmguru and PCBs

Hi, kmguru! I don´t know if you found information about PCBs on ACSH website. In case you didn´t, here is a link to our webpage in Argentina to a report by the ACSH, where you´ll find full details about the issue. (It is in English). Nothing was left out. Hope you enjoy it!
<A HREF=""><B>PCB Report</B></A>

Occurring? Yes. At what rate? Depends what you consider as fast and slow. Global warming is the rise in AVERAGE global temperatures but we've only been averaging for how long? Who knows, in the past, the average might have gone up and down and it was all "natural" age, yes....but that was a "bit" extreme....let's not get carried away.

The greenhouse effect -->natural, and yes, human activity in the past 200 years may have contributed to global warming but HOW much? Is it that bad? It can get really bad, but I'm sure by then we will have solved our energy concerns in a more environmentally friendly way (no more spewing off greenhouse gases up into the atmosphere). Afterall, aren't environmentalists pushing the panic button on the global warming thing to encourage us into finding and using alternative energy resources? Not that I'm against them or anything....I support the noble cause....we should look for alternative energy warming or not.

I just don't see us roasting in this century....our great great great grandkids, maybe....if we don't nuke ourselves into oblivion first. As long as we are taking preventative measures (which we are) then I don't think we need to freak out over global warming...just keep it in mind and do our share.;)
The Ecosphere is badly damaged and it won't take a century before the human race shall be wiped away by 2/3 of the worlds population.

The main cause of this are the so called holy wars. Earth is hurt and damaged by the human race and it gets worse every day.
Better think of in between 40 years, 2/3 of the worlds population will be erased from Earth. Only the ones who nurture and take good care of Earth will remain.

Edufer, I don't need your reply on this, this is something different.
I know, for sure....
For you to find out how.
Enjoy your days in the Sun while you still can, haha.
I sure do the same, you don't know me and who I am, so no quotes please. I just give information.
Thank you.:)

Well, I seriously doubt that "Mother Earth" will individually select the people who have nurtured her and protected her to remain living 40 years from now. I suspect you were joking but ANYWAY...

Global warming is not as emminent as ozone layer depletion (granted they may have similar causes although CFCs are the main culprits in the ozone problem). Ozone layer depletion also occurs naturally---kinda like mutations in DNA only we've managed to turn it into a type of cancer...where the damage is pretty awful and almost irreversible (we are working on it!). Now THAT is a big concern. People in South America in Chile and Argentina (Tierra del Fuego) are having serious cancer, blindness....hell, why do you think NASA has chosen to set up camp there? For all the pretty little points of light they can see?? The sheep are going blind for cryin' out loud!!!:mad:
No, I am not joking and Earth doesn't pick individuals.
That is for the human race to see who will remain.

And you name a lot of things which are very true, all pollution.
There are more autistic babies too the last 15 years.
And so there is a lot more.

The Ecosphere is really badly damaged. Something will happen, as always has been through the ages. Once in a while Earth cleans Herself from the little pests on Her back.
And right She is....
Ana: I am sorry to contradict you, but people in Tierra del Fuego and southern Chile have no problems at all with the infamous "ozone hole". I live in Argentina, and am well aware of anything concerned with the status of the ozone layer.

According to studies made by Drs. Isidoro Orlansky and Martinez, from the National University of Buenos Aires, back in 1996, the levels of ultraviolet radiation (UV-B) coming through a "mini ozone hole" above Ushuaia (the capital of Tierra del Fuego), were in the order of 150 watts/m2, while the "normal" radiation falling at the same moment in Buenos Aires (1800 km north) were 350 watts/m2. This means that the amount of UV-B coming through the ozone hole was less than half than the UV-B falling over Buenos Aries. By the way: UV-B right below the "hole" in Antarctica never go over 120 watts/m2.

The incidence of skin tumors (basal and squamous cells) among people in Tierra del Fuego are far below those seen in people living in more irradiated places like my city (Cordoba, 31°South). And regarding the malignant melanoma tumors, the rate is uniform from Ushuaia to the north border with Bolivia --which gives you a hint that melanomas are not related in any form to solar irradiance. Surely you must have been getting your information from the wrong places. According to Lic. Victoria Tafuri, form the National Observatory in Villa Ortuzar, Buenos Aires, in charge of cheking ozone layer thickness: "We have not seen any decrease in the levels of the ozone layer during the last 25 years". Please pay a short visit to the website by the <A HREF="">Argentine Foundation for a Scientific Ecology"</A> (the English version) and check for some truths regarding some common myths and misconceptions on the environmental issue.
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Edufer, I have to say that it is not much of a coincidence that it is better in Argentina, for it all started in South America in the first place, long, long ago in the Ancient Times.

And in the countries in South America is less pollution then in other parts of the world because they don't have the same kind of polluting material luxury in big places in the country.
I don't mean the cities, but inwards the countries.

So I should prefer to live there too, always wanted to go there, because of the Ancient Pyramids and the culture that is still there, less then it supposed to be, but oh, would I want to go there and have a look and feel the sphere at the Ancient Pyramids and their history.

For that I envie you very much. ;)

Have a nice day.
All I can tell you is that people who cherish this earth will be prepared for whats coming, and wont live in the places that will have the most devestation. I know that I will have a home in the wilderness.

I actually think that I would enjoy the peace and quiet of living in the wilderness with a beatiful wife. There would be no government to tell us that that is someone eles land. We would return to the life that we once loved so. The Hunter-Gather Life, the wanders.

Why become a space ferring Civilizatiion? We can't even take care of our own home let alone Mars and Titan. I dont know what is coming, I cant tell you that. But what I can tell you is that we are at fork in the road. Either we learn to live with ourselves or we will be demoted to the Hunter-Gathers that we once were. For we are All wanders, yearning for exploration and new places. All the explores have had to hang up their coats because the only place left to go is UP. And we have barely gotten our feet wet in the cosmic ocean. So I leave you with this: If we become a space ferring Civilization, something must have awakened us. Because without something that will awaken every soul on this earth, there is no way that this civilization, at its present state or given any number of years, will become a space ferring civilization that would have learned to live with its self and take care of our mother, the earth. For it will always be our home.
Not exactly what you would expect from global warming is it?

From CNN:


LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Massive icebergs and an unprecedented amount of sea ice have nearly isolated one of Antarctica's largest populations of Adelie penguins, jeopardizing attempts by the birds to breed, scientists report.
Each year at this time, the penguins flock from their feeding grounds at sea to Ross Island, where they breed and lay their eggs in shallow nests lined with pebbles.
But satellite images released Thursday by NASA show the coast around Cape Crozier -- normally home to a colony of about 130,000 breeding pairs of the penguins -- is choked with ice and icebergs.
The largest of the bergs, dubbed B-15A, covers 2,100 square miles, roughly the area of Delaware.
The amount of sea ice has increased -- and in some cases, doubled -- the distance between the breeding grounds and the open water, where penguins feast on krill, fish and squid. That means the birds must now walk rather than swim to their colonies, which can take them five times as long.
Scientist David Ainley of H.T. Harvey & Associates, ecological consultants based in San Jose, said the numbers of Adelie penguins is on the "low side" at Cape Crozier, threatening the survival of the colony.
The colony, the world's sixth-largest and southernmost population of the penguins, has been studied continuously since 1959. It had been increasing in size in recent years.
A smaller Adelie colony at nearby Cape Royds will "fail totally," Ainley said. A colony of 1,200 Emperor penguins at Cape Crozier also failed to raise chicks this year, according to researchers working on the National Science Foundation-funded study.
Among the natural culprits are B-15A and a smaller iceberg, C-16. The two bergs broke off from the Ross Ice Shelf in March 2000 as part of a natural calving process and have gradually migrated along the shore, altering wind and current patterns in the process.
The bergs may eventually seal off sea access to McMurdo Station, the main United States facility in Antarctica, said Ian Joughin, a researcher at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
The movement of the icebergs, and subsequent growth of sea ice in the region, was seen in NASA imagery captured by the agency's Terra satellite.
NASA telling it is Natural...?

How you think it comes that those ice mountains are there in the first place? Natural? So it is Natural that those penguins die?

NASA tells this and NASA tells that. One tale after another.

Why did NASA take the satelite from Arecibo out of orbit? Because they care so much about Earth? Or because they care so much about themselves?

Why doesn't NASA release the hidden Spacecrafts? And why doesn't NASA tell us what they really found?

Tales, no more than stupid american tales. To keep the society quite.

I'll give you another american tale and please don't make me mad.:(

Saturday, 29 December, 2001, 00:32 GMT

Birds 'missing' after US bombing

The Siberian crane is globally endangered

By Jill McGivering
BBC South Asia correspondent

Ornithologists in Pakistan fear that populations of birds whose migration route takes them over Afghanistan may have been devastated by the weeks of bombing there.

For the birds, the timing of the bombing could not have been worse

On the shores of Rawal Lake, a key conservation area only about 10 minutes drive from the centre of Islamabad, there is a sound that cannot be heard this year: a whole bird population which has suddenly gone missing.

Dr Masoud Anwar, a biodiversity specialist who monitors wildlife, says he usually sees several thousand ducks and other wildfowl migrating here from Central Asia via Afghanistan.

So far this year, not one has arrived. It is a conservation disaster.

"We are trying to conserve biodiversity here, and we need the birds for that. If there're no birds, we cannot go for the conservation," he says.

Killed or derouted

The same reports are coming from all over Pakistan. Tens of thousands of ducks, cranes and other birds depend on Pakistan as a winter habitat, and Afghanistan is a key migration route.

Ducks and other birds depend on Pakistan as a winter habitat

For the birds, the timing of the bombing could not have been worse.

Oumed Haneed, an ornithologist with Pakistan's National Council for Conservation of Wildlife, says it is unclear why the birds have not appeared.

"One impact may be directly the killing of birds through bombing, poisoning of the wetlands or the sites which these birds are using.

"Another impact may be these birds are derouted, because their migration is very precise. They migrate in a corridor and if they are disturbed through bombing, they might change their route," he says.


Cranes are perhaps the most at risk. Three species of crane winter in Pakistan. All of them are rare. One, the Siberian Crane, is globally endangered.

Asheik Ahmed Khan of the Worldwide Fund for Nature says the signs so far are very disturbing.

"Previously, the hunters used to see cranes in a group of 50 or 55. This year, they could not see them in a group of more than three. The group has become very small, and it means something is happening, somewhere."

Down at the lake, monitoring teams are waiting in the hope of seeing late arrivals.

The real impact on migrating birds will not be known until surveys are completed. But ornithologists fear the bombing in Afghanistan could have devastated bird populations, some of which will struggle to recover.

NASA has nice pictures, but let them stay with that please and out of Earths behaviour. :confused:
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I have an understanding of how our Ozone is from a Satellite Chronological Scan of CO emissions that I found some months back.

The Ozone (O<SUB>3</SUB>) is the shell that protects us from Ultra Violet radiation (and other radiations), for many years people have been concerning about it's destruction as aparent holes begin to take shape over the poles. The following is my explaination of what occurs and why, as for what we can do about it???? well For any disease to be treated, it starts with a Diagnosis.

The Ozone, is above other gases that are sent into the atmsophere, Some are very natural:

like Hydrogen (H) and Oxygen as Water (H<SUB>2</SUB>O) Evaporates from the planet surface.

There is an amount of Methane (CH<SUB>4</SUB>) that comes from the breakdown of biological materials like waste at a landfill site, but is also vented from Oil rigs. (Since Oil is made from biological breakdown)

Cars output Carbon Monoxide (CO) through there Exhausts with an amount of Carbon Dioxide (CO<SUB>2</SUB>) which we also Exhail.

There are many other combinations of elements that are also expelled into the atmosphere from Volcanoes and Fridges/Old Aerosol cans. (Some have molecules that are too acute to name in full and can have alternative configurations, Like Chloro-fluorocarbon CFC's)

All these gases that can rise up to the Ozone, layer beneath, and because they intermingle with the ozone at it's base level, some Radiation manages to get through and photoelectrically change how a molecules electrons react.
This causes changes and the swapping of atoms between molecules, most notibly Oxygen from the Ozone.

This for a time Lowers the Strength of the Ozone and increases the amount of Molecular changes that occur in the Gases below the Ozone. The Molecular Gas clouds below the Ozone fluctuate in strength, at one given time CO,O3,CH4 might be high and next H2O, H2O, CO2 will be more prominant. (You'll notice a missing C, thats because Carbon on it's own falls back to earth to create Dust and Dirt)

This is where the planets Atmosphere shifts in Equilibrum, At one given time the Ozone is in emense depletion and next it's over repaired. The reason for such drastic shifts is due to the amount of Gases that Us humans have unnaturally forced into the Atmosphere.

If the world was naturally dealing with a natural amount, then its Equilibrium would be pretty much set and have close perimeters (This is because the planet has had Millions of years for development of it's climate), our shift has destablised the planet back to the point of Re-Development, and that is what we will have to deal with.)

The only way that a balance can be attempted to regain is by lowering CO, CH4 and CFC Emmisions GLOBALLY, And that is why almost all Worldly Countries Accepted the Kyoto Summits ruling (Other than one particular Country that I won't mention [CoughAmericaCough], Of course there was a Mention of "Not Economically Viable", Well thats a self-destructive statement, okay... your nearing retirement, you reaping some money in... But your Grandchildren aren't going to have a planet to live on where they don't get cancer, So I hope your moneys worth it.)

The holes are over the poles because the ICE sheets act like "Focal Mirrors", Namely Radiation strikes the ice and rebounds back up, attacking the Ozone from below.

(This with the added fact that originally Our Radio networks use to use a method of bouncing radiowaves off of the bottom of the ionosphere also cause Ozone damage.)
Great Reply...

There you explain it very well Stryder. You can do so much better in English.:) Thank you.

And it is true that we humans are damaging the Ecosphere immensly at the moment and if we go on like this, we return to the state of cavemen.:(

Evolution, but than in reverse meaning.

So lets try to stop this and start at home, with your trashcans and cars and spread the word to your fellow humans who want to listen. Though I think it is already to late to 'cure' this.

Come on people, think about it. Earth is hurt badly and it is our fault...:confused:
With all the fuel we burn in cars and trucks, boats planes etc, you cannot jsut be ignorant and pass it of as not doing anything lol.
Yes the earth was probably coming out of a ice age.....naturally over thousands of years im sure, this gives life time to adapt, we speed it up to levels that will cause extinction, it will unless we make huge changes to the way we think, right now its bigger/more which will end humans. My grandfather who is 80 years old this year has seen the human population increase 6x since he was born, you think that that can go on?

Global warming is a reality, we need to react now!