Gender identity: Crazy/delusional?

[Capracus]

You cannot enforce acknowledgment without coercion...violating existing rights.

Why should coercion be necessary to recognize the obvious? These individuals have chosen to conduct themselves in a way that poses no threat to others in society, and any risk to themselves is proportional to the personal risk assumed by others already in good social standing. Is asking certain factions of society to exercise common sense a violation their rights?

Transition does not guarantee they will be "treated as they desire" (nothing does...for anyone), which probably accounts for their disproportionate suicide rate.

All the more reason to support strategies to remedy their torment. This includes tolerance of their nonconformity by those who haven’t yet learned to rationally accept it.

Really? What evidence leads you to believe we will one day be able to change a person's whole DNA from one sex to the other? Wishful thinking?

I would say that when a person possesses a requisite proportion of a given gender’s anatomic function, they could be considered biologically that gender as well. For example if a trans woman were surgically given genetically compatible and functional reproductive organs, and breast tissue, the resulting hormonal conditioning and reproductive functionality would biologically define that human being as a woman. This procedure would depend on future advances in organ generation, which is not a product of my wishful thinking, but a serious goal in current medical research. You don’t have hope that such medical advances will someday become a reality?
https://cellregenerationjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2045-9769-2-1
https://cellregenerationjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2045-9769-2-1

https://research-highlights.keio.ac.jp/article/31/lab-grown-uterus-could-reverse-infertility

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130326151131.htm

All of our inclinations are the result of some form of conditioning, why would I expect different in this case?

Oh, I don't know, evolutionary psychology.

Environmental conditioning is the basis for any evolutionary process, so what’s your point?

 

[spidergoat]

There's no objective test for autism either, does that mean it doesn't exist?

 

[Syne]

/sarcasm on Since you are obviously asking in good faith out of genuine interest, /sarcasm off here are a few links for you to peruse:

Challenging Gender Identity: Biologists Say Gender Expands Across A Spectrum, Rather Than Simply Boy And Girl
http://www.medicaldaily.com/challen...-gender-expands-across-spectrum-rather-323956

http://www.medicaldaily.com/challen...-gender-expands-across-spectrum-rather-323956
Mosiacism and microchimerism do not alter DNA from XX to XY, or vice versa, nor gonadal sex.

Between the (Gender) Lines: the Science of Transgender Identity
http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Dubious twins studies and trivial neuralplasticity results.

How Science Is Helping Us Understand Gender
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/01/how-science-helps-us-understand-gender-identity/

Lots of anecdotal stories.

Neuroscience Proves What We’ve Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html

Transgender brain similarities to their chosen sex is only ever similar, never identical, and easily accounted for by neuralplasticity.

Apparently you missed the "conclusive studies" part of my question.

 

[Syne]

Scientifically, according to objective measure, or pandering to subjective feelings?

My feelings aren't hurt by transgender using bathrooms, Syne. That's your issue.

Try reading that simple English again, deary. Why would your feelings matter, much less be hurt, in how others are identified? Seems you must be projecting, since you protest what hasn't even been implied.

An objective measure would look at the biology of transgender, and then look at the evidence and the risk assessment. Thus far, you and others who believe like you have completely and utterly failed to provide any evidence to support your claims of paedophiles pretending to be transgender men to sexually assault young girls in public bathrooms being so prevalent that transgender women must be barred from the women's bathroom. Instead, we get the panicked response and desperate handwaving based on 'what if'.

Again, what objective biology, not already accounted for by neuralplasticity?
Again, where did I claim pedophiles pretend to be transgender? You really seem to like this straw man.
You're obviously ignoring what I say so you can lump me in with "others who believe like you", whatever you imagine that to be.

You are the one who brought up DNA, remember? You are the one who brought up using bathrooms, remember? When confronted with science, you try and change the subject and keep demanding links that were already provided..

Do you really not know how easy it is to go verify that almost everyone in this thread brought up bathrooms before I did? Are you really THAT deluded?
Those links don't say what you think they say, at least not with the certainty you seem to be portraying.

Perhaps you should have read past the first four paragraphs of what I linked previously. Because here is what it says in the article, that you clearly did not read, despite my linking it and you kept saying was not there.. Had you read what was linked, you'd have found:

In a study published in 2014, psychologist Sarah M. Burke of VU University Medical Center in Amsterdam and biologist Julie Bakker of the Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience used functional MRI to examine how 39 prepubertal and 41 adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded to androstadienone, an odorous steroid with pheromonelike properties that is known to cause a different response in the hypothalamus of men versus women. They found that the adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded much like peers of their experienced gender. The results were less clear with the prepubertal children.

This kind of study is important, says Baudewijntje Kreukels, an expert on gender dysphoria at VU University Medical Center, “because sex differences in responding to odors cannot be influenced by training or environment.” The same can be said of another 2014 experiment by Burke and her colleagues. They measured the responses of boys and girls with gender dysphoria to echo like sounds produced by the inner ear in response to a clicking noise. Boys with gender dysphoria responded more like typical females, who have a stronger response to these sounds. But girls with gender dysphoria also responded like typical females.

Overall the weight of these studies and others points strongly toward a biological basis for gender dysphoria. But given the variety of transgender people and the variation in the brains of men and women generally, it will be a long time, if ever, before a doctor can do a brain scan on a child and say, “Yes, this child is trans.”​

In my previous post, I linked to studies where they discussed testing children and new imaging technology is expected to be able to see these differences in children that are below 5 years of age.

So can you please explain why you keep demanding evidence, despite said evidence having been provided repeatedly?

Oh, I see. You were simple equivocating "children" so you could pretend that you somehow had results that eliminated time for neuralplasticity, and seemingly ignoring the last statement of your own source.
"Expected" isn't a finding.

Are you suggesting that this is only based on looks?

The bathroom laws are clear. You must use the bathroom that the sex you were born with corresponds to. Looks don't come into it. This means that transgender men, who were born with female sex organs, are required by law to use the women's bathroom. They don't want to use the women's bathrooms because they are not women. But the law demands that they use the women's bathroom. And now we have you saying that if you look like a man, no one will question a man using the men's room. Legally, those men are not allowed to use the men's room and are required by law to use the women's bathroom.

Do you ever speed? Jaywalk? Do all laws strictly restrain your behavior? No? You mean there's things you do when you don't think authorities are watching or anyone would notice? OMG, what a scandal?!
It was always a nonissue until they started demanding acceptance from others.

Who said it was "within their control" or "something they are choosing"? Mental illness is not a choice, is, by definition, beyond the sufferer's control, and usually does subject the sufferer to some bad external reactions. Now you can debate whether it's a mental illness, but you're intellectually dishonest if you persist in the straw man that it's a choice.

You are arguing that it is a choice.

WOW! So you really can't read simple English (or just blinding confirmation bias). I say that it being a choice is a straw man and you still insist that's my argument...even after I explicitly said it "is not a choice".
I'm not whatever boogeyman you imagine you are debating.

Read what you're responding to again. Did I say anyone flashes their junk or that there have been instances of predators exploiting it?

And read what I was responding to.

And if you can't pass as your chosen gender, it's only an issue if you are prone to flashing your junk around.

Are these not your words?

And I also addressed your comments about predators exploiting it. Why are you trying to misrepresent what I said and what I was responding to?

Again, who said either happen? And who said the predators were pedophiles?
It's your straw man arguments doing the misrepresentation here...but projection.

Oh you mean that hasn't been the prevailing argument of conservatives?

I'm not a spokesman for all conservatives. If you've paid any attention at all, you'd know that many of my views don't align with them. So why should I defend their arguments? Should I equally expect you to defend violent riots regardless of your actual opinions?

Yes.
No.
Our public showers, even at the gym, have doors.. Perhaps you should try that sometimes..
And I would worry about anyone taking photos of others in public showers, regardless of their gender.

The photo was taken as the Playmate was sitting inside the gym's sauna. The other woman in the locker room had no idea she was being photographed and that her naked body would be displayed on social media for all to see...
Another posted: “Its people like you that make others uneasy about changing openly in locker rooms.”
- http://www.insideedition.com/headli...ng-naked-woman-in-gym-locker-room-on-snapchat​

Maybe you're already " uneasy about changing openly in locker rooms" (prude?), and somehow desperately trying to make that an ad hominem.
What's the difference between a transgender woman, with a penis and sexually attracted to women, and a straight man in your locker room?

Except you fail to note what was actually important in that story.. Your "lol" aside, something I notice people do when they don't have a leg to stand on..

You're either tone policing (trolling) or poisoning the well (ad hominem).

The reason he could not identify as female was because biologically, in his brain, he was always male. Which kind of puts your neuralplasticity argument away, doesn't it? His experiences of being brought up as a female, failed to turn him female. His brain was always male. Just as transgender brains show that they are biologically the opposite sex.

No, that just demonstrates the strength genetic sex. Neuralplasticity does not guarantee the same experience will have the same result on every individual. Hell, even twin studies don't show a one for one concordance.

What this means is that no, you cannot teach or force children who are transgender, to not be transgender, such as when you started going on about children being confused all the time and how society should not 'placate' them. They will be what their brain identifies them as being.

You're still making claims you cannot support.

 

[Syne]

There's no objective test for autism either, does that mean it doesn't exist?

Who ever said transgenders don't exist?

 

[Syne]

Standard or ad hoc: please to define the difference which turns my follow-up questions to straw.

It's called a dictionary.

 

[iceaura]

Transgender brain similarities to their chosen sex is only ever similar, never identical, and easily accounted for by neuralplasticity

If "neuralplasticity" (sic) accounts for the gender-specific structures of the brain, then your chromosome-based assignment of gender goes out the window.

 

[iceaura]

You're either tone policing (trolling) or poisoning the well (ad hominem).

It's called a dictionary.

Yep - that's what it's called.

 

[Randwolf]

/sarcasm on Since you are obviously asking in good faith out of genuine interest, /sarcasm off

Apparently you missed the "conclusive studies" part of my question.

Apparently you missed the "sarcasm" part of my reply. Nobody really thinks you are discussing in good faith.

 

[Syne]

If "neuralplasticity" (sic) accounts for the gender-specific structures of the brain, then your chromosome-based assignment of gender goes out the window.

First, thanks for pointing out my misspelling. I do appreciate not being left to continue the mistake.
Second, neuroplasticity accounts for the deviations from gender-specific brain structures, which is why gay/transgender brain structures never match those of heterosexuals, but only become similar. If neuroplasticity accounted for all gender-specific brain structures, we would expect to find zero difference between a woman and trans-woman's brain structures. But like all things gender nowadays, the left wants to ignore genetics in favor of "social constructs", which do not account for such brain differences either.

 

[Bells]

Try reading that simple English again, deary.

"Deary"?

How patronising, and, because it is so patronising and condescending, it becomes an insult. I'll put it this way, you keep calling me "deary", I'll just refer to you as twat. That sound okay to you?

Why would your feelings matter, much less be hurt, in how others are identified? Seems you must be projecting, since you protest what hasn't even been implied.

I'm pretty certain I said that my feelings don't matter. Oh, you meant the feelings of transgender? Their feelings do matter on this issue as they are the victims of conservative policies that deny them their fundamental human rights.

Understand now?

Again, what objective biology, not already accounted for by neuralplasticity?

You have yet to prove that neural plasticity is the cause of biological changes in the brains of transgender children.

Again, where did I claim pedophiles pretend to be transgender? You really seem to like this straw man.

Oh, I apologise, you did not. You just skirted the issue by going on about "potential predators", an argument conservatives use to comment about potential paedophiles.

But let's look at your potential predator argument, shall we?

Do you have proof that men pretending to be transgender for "predator" reasons in bathrooms, for example, is now so problematic that we must now legislate about which bathroom to use to such an extent?

You're obviously ignoring what I say so you can lump me in with "others who believe like you", whatever you imagine that to be.

" "??

Well, I don't need to imagine, Syne. Your anti LGBT stance and your actions as a result of it is one of the primary reasons that saw you demoted on this site.

Do you really not know how easy it is to go verify that almost everyone in this thread brought up bathrooms before I did? Are you really THAT deluded?

Oh, you didn't bring it up. But you took it and ran with it. Repeatedly. I mean, you were the one who went on about "potential predators" in bathrooms, in response to someone asking if you'd be happy with a man sharing the same bathroom as your daughter, in regards to laws that now force transgender men to use women's bathrooms because they were born with female reproductive organs. I mean, this is where the whole paedophile thing comes from in this thread.

Someone talks about the ridiculous laws that now force men to use the women's bathrooms because they demand that transgender men use women's bathrooms since they were born 'female' and whether you would be fine with a man sharing it with your daughter and your response is to go on about "potential predators"..

Those links don't say what you think they say, at least not with the certainty you seem to be portraying.

Oh but they do. The science is there.

For example:

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexuality but not MtF transsexuality. Most notably, the FtM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexuality. ​

You can access the full text of the paper here.

_________________________________

A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism
Bentz, Eva-Katrin et al (2008). Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , 56 - 59. http://bit.ly/2nBkDUd

 

[Bells]

Oh, I see. You were simple equivocating "children" so you could pretend that you somehow had results that eliminated time for neuralplasticity, and seemingly ignoring the last statement of your own source.
"Expected" isn't a finding.

Once again, the results speak for themselves. New imaging technology is expected to show from an even younger age.

Neural plasticity in regards to transgender children would indicate that children are taught to be the opposite sex. That they are trained and raised, or as you put it, pandered to, to be the opposite sex. The opposite is actually the case. Gender identity has every indication of being set at birth. If we were to take your neural plasticity argument seriously, it would mean that environment could alter gender identity in children. Which means that XY babies, raised as girls, taught to identify as girls, would, through neural plasticity, become girls. They do not.

A seminal study by Meyer-Bahlburg et al involving outcomes of XY individuals raised as females due to severe nonhormonal, anatomic abnormalities of sex development provided the most convincing evidence that gender identity is fixed.[2] These congenital abnormalities include penile agenesis, cloacal exstrophy, and penile ablation. For many years, female gender assignment along with surgical feminization was the dominant approach for these patients. In this study, 78% of all female-assigned 46 XY patients were living as females. While the majority of these patients did not initiate a gender change to male, none of the 15 male-raised 46 XY patients initiated a gender change to female. Thus, the risk of questioning gender identity was higher in those 46 XY subjects raised as females than in those raised as males. The same group examined the degree of satisfaction with surgical intervention reported by patients with 46 XY genotypes and found that those subjects raised as boys were considerably more comfortable with their gender identity.[3]

Another seminal study relevant to this topic was by Reiner and Gearhart.[4] In their review of 16 XY genotype subjects with cloacal exstrophy who underwent female gender reassignment surgery, 4 of the 14 individuals raised as girls announced they were male, and 4 later chose to live as boys when they became aware of their genotype. The 2 individuals who were raised as males identified as males throughout life. The sexual behavior and attitudes of all 16 subjects ultimately reflected strong masculine characteristics regardless of gender assignment. Thus, children who were born genetically and hormonally male identified as males despite being raised as females and undergoing feminizing genitoplasty at birth. Although the cohort sizes in these studies were small, the data provide the strongest evidence for the biologic underpinnings of gender identity.​

Do you ever speed? Jaywalk? Do all laws strictly restrain your behavior? No? You mean there's things you do when you don't think authorities are watching or anyone would notice? OMG, what a scandal?!
It was always a nonissue until they started demanding acceptance from others.

No.
No.
I don't believe so.

Is it the acceptance thing that bothers you, isn't it? That you believe you are being forced to accept transgender people? That they are given equal rights as a natural progression of "acceptance".. That's your real issue, isn't it?

WOW! So you really can't read simple English (or just blinding confirmation bias). I say that it being a choice is a straw man and you still insist that's my argument...even after I explicitly said it "is not a choice".
I'm not whatever boogeyman you imagine you are debating.

So when you argue about their "chosen gender", you aren't arguing that they are choosing to be transgender? You aren't arguing that they are somehow choosing which sex to be?

Again, who said either happen? And who said the predators were pedophiles?
It's your straw man arguments doing the misrepresentation here...but projection

Well, let's see. Billvon questions whether you would have an issue with a man sharing the same bathroom as your daughter, in an argument that centers around the fact that transgender men are legally forced to now use female bathrooms because they were born with female reproductive organs and their birth certificate said "female". Your response to my querying your comment about Billvon's question is to go on about "potential predators".

What exactly did you mean by that response to Billvon's comments?

Billvon's point, in response to your flippant DNA remark, was to correctly point out that DNA, such as a DNA test on a male transgender who has male sex drives, male genitals, etc, but was born female with female DNA to use your daughter's bathroom.

If we didn't placate gender dysphoria, it wouldn't be an issue. Aside from that, if you can pass as your chosen gender, no one will think twice about you using your chosen bathroom. And if you can't pass as your chosen gender, it's only an issue if you are prone to flashing your junk around. But we can't simply let anyone use any bathroom solely on subjective self-reported gender without enabling potential predators to exploit it.

I'm not a spokesman for all conservatives. If you've paid any attention at all, you'd know that many of my views don't align with them. So why should I defend their arguments? Should I equally expect you to defend violent riots regardless of your actual opinions?

But your argument mirrors that of conservatives on this issue.

Are you now saying that conservatives are wrong to argue against allowing transgender using the bathroom they identify with and the arguments they put forth against it, such as "potential predators", which you ridiculously parroted in this thread?

The photo was taken as the Playmate was sitting inside the gym's sauna. The other woman in the locker room had no idea she was being photographed and that her naked body would be displayed on social media for all to see...
Another posted: “Its people like you that make others uneasy about changing openly in locker rooms.”
- http://www.insideedition.com/headli...ng-naked-woman-in-gym-locker-room-on-snapchatMaybe you're already " uneasy about changing openly in locker rooms" (prude?), and somehow desperately trying to make that an ad hominem.
What's the difference between a transgender woman, with a penis and sexually attracted to women, and a straight man in your locker room?

Considering your repeated ad hom attacks in this thread, don't you think it's a bit rich for you to accuse others of it when all I suggested was that you use doors in your change rooms like we have here in Australia?

And our change rooms tend to have cubicles, same with our public showers and whatnot.

And thirdly, your quoted link.. Is it a man who pretended to be transgender who took the photos and then, from the title of the article, fat shamed a porn star? I mean, was it a potential predator who did it? That's your argument about letting transgender using the bathrooms they identify with, so your quote makes no sense at all and has nothing really to do with the thread. What you are showing is that women pose a greater risk to other females in public change rooms than transgender women do...

Ironic really.

You're either tone policing (trolling) or poisoning the well (ad hominem).

Well isn't that what you are doing? So far, in this post alone, you have accused me of being deluded, not being able to read, became patronising and condescending by calling me "deary".. And you think my observation about your "lol", and I might add, your repeated use of emoticons, is an ad hom attack?

No, that just demonstrates the strength genetic sex. Neuralplasticity does not guarantee the same experience will have the same result on every individual. Hell, even twin studies don't show a one for one concordance.

You're wrong.

Provide something to support your argument and we might take you seriously. Otherwise, what's the point of your arguing or posting in this thread if you keep making claims you cannot even support? What's your role here, Syne?

_________________________________
Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity
Aruna Saraswat, Jamie Weinand, and Joshua Safer (2015). Endocrine Practice: February 2015, Vol. 21, No. 2, pp. 199-204. http://wb.md/2mBTUoW

 

[Jeeves]

Everyone has an absolute right to their feelings, however misguided.
Bigots can be as prejudiced, intolerant and closed-minded as they like, so long as they don't interfere with the rights of other people.
So - Why is it this important to retain the right to exhibit bigotry?
How can the entitlement to mislabel and insult total strangers be important enough to alienate - not to mention bore and annoy - an anonymous on-line community, and make a total ass of oneself?
I just cannot fathom the motivation.

 

[Syne]

"Deary"?

How patronising, and, because it is so patronising and condescending, it becomes an insult. I'll put it this way, you keep calling me "deary", I'll just refer to you as twat. That sound okay to you?

Tone policing again? Hey, I'm happy to refrain from things you find insulting (you feelings again...even if they are not inherently insulting), just so long as this doesn't become a standard ploy to troll. Sound okay to you, woman?

I'm pretty certain I said that my feelings don't matter. Oh, you meant the feelings of transgender? Their feelings do matter on this issue as they are the victims of conservative policies that deny them their fundamental human rights.

Understand now?

You said, "My feelings aren't hurt by transgender using bathrooms, Syne." If they don't matter, you bringing them up was just a non-sequitur nothing-burger.
Humoring mental illness (gender dysphoria) is not a human right. Nor are these conservative policies. These are policies that have existed for a very long time...supported across the board.

You have yet to prove that neural plasticity is the cause of biological changes in the brains of transgender children.

Since you don't seem to possess a rudimentary understanding of neuroplasticity:

Facts About Neuroplasticity
FACT 1: Neuroplasticity includes several different processes that take place throughout a lifetime.
Neuroplasticity does not consist of a single type of morphological change, but rather includes several different processes that occur throughout an individual's lifetime. Many types of brain cells are involved in neuroplasticity, including neurons, glia, and vascular cells.
FACT 2: Neuroplasticity has a clear age-dependent determinant.

Although plasticity occurs over an individual's lifetime, different types of plasticity dominate during certain periods of one's life and are less prevalent during other periods.
FACT 3: Neuroplasticity occurs in the brain under two primary conditions:

1. During normal brain development when the immature brain first begins to process sensory information through adulthood (developmental plasticity and plasticity of learning and memory).

2. As an adaptive mechanism to compensate for lost function and/or to maximize remaining functions in the event of brain injury.

FACT 4: The environment plays a key role in influencing plasticity.

In addition to genetic factors, the brain is shaped by the characteristics of a person's environment and by the actions of that same person.
- https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/plast.html​

Enrichment studies have shown that a caring environment aids learning and development. But neuroplasticity also has a darker side. Impoverished environmental conditions, prenatal substance exposure, sensory deprivation, emotional trauma and nutritional deficiencies can cause plasticity to play its unkind hand, wreaking havoc on the developing young brain. Long-term chronic stress (“toxic stress”) provokes the release of high levels of the hormone cortisol that can lead to permanent damage to hippocampal neurons, causing learning difficulties and memory impairments. - http://brainworldmagazine.com/neuroplasticity/
​

Oh, I apologise, you did not. You just skirted the issue by going on about "potential predators", an argument conservatives use to comment about potential paedophiles.

But let's look at your potential predator argument, shall we?

Do you have proof that men pretending to be transgender for "predator" reasons in bathrooms, for example, is now so problematic that we must now legislate about which bathroom to use to such an extent?

Man in Drag Caught in Macy's Women’s Restroom Secretly Taping Women

Police: Man in bra and wig found in women's bathroom

FAU police: Man caught videotaping women in bathroom

Man caught filming women in pizza shop bathroom jumps out of ceiling: police

Man who choked 8-year-old girl in women’s restroom stokes alarm over transgender access

Or just Google "man caught in women's bathroom" to find countless more. Are you really so blissfully unaware of all this?

" "??

Well, I don't need to imagine, Syne. Your anti LGBT stance and your actions as a result of it is one of the primary reasons that saw you demoted on this site.

Sure, the bigotry of lumping everyone who disagrees with you into one monolithic group.

Oh, you didn't bring it up. But you took it and ran with it. Repeatedly. I mean, you were the one who went on about "potential predators" in bathrooms, in response to someone asking if you'd be happy with a man sharing the same bathroom as your daughter, in regards to laws that now force transgender men to use women's bathrooms because they were born with female reproductive organs. I mean, this is where the whole paedophile thing comes from in this thread.

Really? Doubling down on it, even though you just admitted and apologized for that pedophile straw man?

Someone talks about the ridiculous laws that now force men to use the women's bathrooms because they demand that transgender men use women's bathrooms since they were born 'female' and whether you would be fine with a man sharing it with your daughter and your response is to go on about "potential predators"..

My specific response to that point was that people will use the bathroom of the gender they pass as, regardless of actual sex or laws...just as they always have. You wouldn't have new laws, with potentially steeper penalties, if they didn't demand to be overtly accepted by others, which only fascists could enforce.

Oh but they do. The science is there.

For example:

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexuality but not MtF transsexuality. Most notably, the FtM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexuality. ​

You can access the full text of the paper here.

From that paper:

The etiology [cause] of transsexualism is unknown, but it has been speculated that the influence of sex steroids on early brain development may play an important role. Transsexualism may also have a genetic component, based on rare reports of twin–twin concordance and families with several affected members.​

You know, aside from the fact that this correlation only holding for female-to-male transgenders undermines it as a biological mechanism for transgenderism in general.

 

[Syne]

Once again, the results speak for themselves. New imaging technology is expected to show from an even younger age.

Again, "expected" is not a finding.

Neural plasticity in regards to transgender children would indicate that children are taught to be the opposite sex. That they are trained and raised, or as you put it, pandered to, to be the opposite sex. The opposite is actually the case. Gender identity has every indication of being set at birth. If we were to take your neural plasticity argument seriously, it would mean that environment could alter gender identity in children. Which means that XY babies, raised as girls, taught to identify as girls, would, through neural plasticity, become girls. They do not.

A seminal study by Meyer-Bahlburg et al involving outcomes of XY individuals raised as females due to severe nonhormonal, anatomic abnormalities of sex development provided the most convincing evidence that gender identity is fixed.[2] These congenital abnormalities include penile agenesis, cloacal exstrophy, and penile ablation. For many years, female gender assignment along with surgical feminization was the dominant approach for these patients. In this study, 78% of all female-assigned 46 XY patients were living as females. While the majority of these patients did not initiate a gender change to male, none of the 15 male-raised 46 XY patients initiated a gender change to female. Thus, the risk of questioning gender identity was higher in those 46 XY subjects raised as females than in those raised as males. The same group examined the degree of satisfaction with surgical intervention reported by patients with 46 XY genotypes and found that those subjects raised as boys were considerably more comfortable with their gender identity.[3]

Another seminal study relevant to this topic was by Reiner and Gearhart.[4] In their review of 16 XY genotype subjects with cloacal exstrophy who underwent female gender reassignment surgery, 4 of the 14 individuals raised as girls announced they were male, and 4 later chose to live as boys when they became aware of their genotype. The 2 individuals who were raised as males identified as males throughout life. The sexual behavior and attitudes of all 16 subjects ultimately reflected strong masculine characteristics regardless of gender assignment. Thus, children who were born genetically and hormonally male identified as males despite being raised as females and undergoing feminizing genitoplasty at birth. Although the cohort sizes in these studies were small, the data provide the strongest evidence for the biologic underpinnings of gender identity.​

Again, you're citing trying to change children from their biological (XY) sex, which only affirms the strength of genetic sex on gender. Neuroplasticity does not imply that the same experience will have the same effect on different individuals. Considering the rarity of transgenderism, we would assume that this particular neuroplasticity effect is a rare vulnerability.

“Neuroplasticity is a double-edged sword,” Neville observed, referring to how experience-dependent changes in the structure and function of the brain can confer benefits but may also leave systems vulnerable. - http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/brain-development-and-neuroplasticity#.WMzCpvmzta4​

No.
No.
I don't believe so.

Is it the acceptance thing that bothers you, isn't it? That you believe you are being forced to accept transgender people? That they are given equal rights as a natural progression of "acceptance".. That's your real issue, isn't it?

No, its the actual repercussions of allowing predators the opportunities. The demand for acceptance would be ignorable if it lacked real world negative consequences.

So when you argue about their "chosen gender", you aren't arguing that they are choosing to be transgender? You aren't arguing that they are somehow choosing which sex to be?

Yeah...I'm just not sure how else to say that. Their....gender identity? But straight people have their gender identities too. Misidentified gender? Dysphoric gender? Hell, I'm not even sure if transgender man means MtF or FtM. Are there crib notes for this crap?

Well, let's see. Billvon questions whether you would have an issue with a man sharing the same bathroom as your daughter, in an argument that centers around the fact that transgender men are legally forced to now use female bathrooms because they were born with female reproductive organs and their birth certificate said "female". Your response to my querying your comment about Billvon's question is to go on about "potential predators".

What exactly did you mean by that response to Billvon's comments?

My first actual response to that, once you had clarified the intended connection, was:

If we didn't placate gender dysphoria, it wouldn't be an issue. Aside from that, if you can pass as your chosen gender, no one will think twice about you using your chosen bathroom. And if you can't pass as your chosen gender, it's only an issue if you are prone to flashing your junk around. But we can't simply let anyone use any bathroom solely on subjective self-reported gender without enabling potential predators to exploit it.​

See where I talked about going to the bathroom of the gender the person passes as? This is my actual reaction.
There's just no reason to codify supposed "trans-rights" into law, considering the risks I've already cited.
And considering transgenders ostensibly seek to be accepted as their chosen/target gender, it's contradictory to demand special accommodations.

But your argument mirrors that of conservatives on this issue.

Are you now saying that conservatives are wrong to argue against allowing transgender using the bathroom they identify with and the arguments they put forth against it, such as "potential predators", which you ridiculously parroted in this thread?

I'm saying that there are predators, as I've cited, but no significant evidence of pedophiles specifically. So again, why would I defend something I don't believe?

Considering your repeated ad hom attacks in this thread, don't you think it's a bit rich for you to accuse others of it when all I suggested was that you use doors in your change rooms like we have here in Australia?

And our change rooms tend to have cubicles, same with our public showers and whatnot.

You don't really understand that poisoning the well (frequent from you) is an ad hominem, do you?
You said, "Our public showers, even at the gym, have doors.. Perhaps you should try that sometimes.." So from that I'm supposed to glean that A) you live in Australia, B) you have zero awareness of US (the country whose laws we are discussing) locker rooms portrayed in countless US movies, C) that you were referring to "doors" when you said "try that", instead of "try them", or D) that "showers...have doors" somehow implies that "changing rooms" have them as well?
Sounds like you're just backpedaling.

And thirdly, your quoted link.. Is it a man who pretended to be transgender who took the photos and then, from the title of the article, fat shamed a porn star? I mean, was it a potential predator who did it? That's your argument about letting transgender using the bathrooms they identify with, so your quote makes no sense at all and has nothing really to do with the thread. What you are showing is that women pose a greater risk to other females in public change rooms than transgender women do...

Ironic really.

I really thought you had to be aware of the copious number of predators in women's rooms I've cited above. That story was just to illustrate the vulnerability.

Since you conveniently ignored the question:

What's the difference between a transgender woman, with a penis and sexually attracted to women, and a straight man in your locker room?
​

What, afraid your answer may expose an inconsistency in your argument?

Well isn't that what you are doing? So far, in this post alone, you have accused me of being deluded, not being able to read, became patronising and condescending by calling me "deary".. And you think my observation about your "lol", and I might add, your repeated use of emoticons, is an ad hom attack?

Look up "tone policing" and "poisoning the well".

You're wrong.

Bare assertion.

​

 

[Syne]

Provide something to support your argument and we might take you seriously. Otherwise, what's the point of your arguing or posting in this thread if you keep making claims you cannot even support? What's your role here, Syne?

Brain-based research has repeatedly shown that female-to-male transsexuals have several male-like characteristics in neuroanatomy. In 2010, a team of neuroscientists compared 18 female-to-male transsexuals with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.[17] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study found that the white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was shifted in the direction of biological males, even before the female-to-male transsexuals started taking male hormones (which can also modify brain structure).

Similar brain structure differences have been noted between gay and heterosexual men, and between lesbian and heterosexual women.[18][19] Studies have also found that circumstance and repeated activities such as meditation modify brain structures in a process called brain plasticity or neuroplasticity. In May 2014, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported that parenting "rewires the male brain" for fathers.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexuality#Brain_structure

A potential limitation in the gray and white matter studies is related to brain functional plasticity. It has been demonstrated that changes in both white matter microstructure and gray matter can be induced by training/experience in healthy human adults (50, 51); thus, it would be difficult to know with certainty whether any observed brain differences between transgender and cisgender individuals are intrinsic or a consequence of experience.
- https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jc.2014-1919

Forcier and Olson-Kennedy’s claim of an innate discordance between a child’s brain and body derives from diffusion-weighted MRI scans that demonstrate the pubertal testosterone surge in boys increases white matter volume, as well as from brain studies of adults who identify as transgender. A study by Rametti and colleagues found that the white matter microstructure of the brains of female-to-male (FtM) transsexual adults, who had not begun testosterone treatment, more closely resembled that of men than that of women.12 Other diffusion-weighted MRI studies have concluded that the white matter microstructure in both FtM and male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals falls halfway between that of genetic females and males.13 These studies, however, are of questionable clinical significance due to the small number of subjects and the existence of neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is the well-established phenomenon in which long-term behavior alters brain microstructure. There is no evidence that people are born with brain microstructures that are forever unalterable, but there is significant evidence that experience changes brain microstructure.14 Therefore, if and when valid transgender brain differences are identified, these will likely be the result of transgender behavior rather than its cause. More importantly, however, is the fact that the brains of all male infants are masculinized prenatally by their own endogenous testosterone, which is secreted from their testes beginning at approximately eight weeks’ gestation. Female infants, of course, lack testes, and therefore, do not have their brains masculinized by endogenous testosterone.15,16,17 For this reason, barring one of the rare disorders of sex development (DSD), boys are not born with feminized brains, and girls are not born with masculinized brains.

Behavior geneticists have known for decades that while genes and hormones influence behavior, they do not hard-wire a person to think, feel, or behave in a particular way. The science of epigenetics has established that genes are not analogous to rigid “blueprints” for behavior. Rather, humans “develop traits through the dynamic process of gene-environment interaction… [genes alone] don’t determine who we are.”18 Regarding the etiology of transgenderism, twin studies of adult transsexuals prove definitively that prenatal genetic and hormone influence is minimal.
- https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-dysphoria-in-children​

 

[iceaura]

Hell, I'm not even sure if transgender man means MtF or FtM. Are there crib notes for this crap

poisoning the well (frequent from you) is an ad hominem, do you?

Look up "tone policing" and "poisoning the well".

Still no dictionary on your end, obviously.

If neuroplasticity accounted for all gender-specific brain structures, we would expect to find zero difference between a woman and trans-woman's brain structures.

There are no circumstances under which we would expect zero differences in brain development between trans, gay, and straight human beings.

Or just Google "man caught in women's bathroom" to find countless more. Are you really so blissfully unaware of all this?

Are you unaware of the fact that those were all "straight" identified men?

 

[Syne]

There are no circumstances under which we would expect zero differences in brain development between trans, gay, and straight human beings.

Exactly, because genetic sex makes a difference.

Are you unaware of the fact that those were all "straight" identified men?

Are YOU unaware that many transgender women (?) are straight and have no intention of removing their penis? Bruce Jenner is a notable example.

 

[iceaura]

Exactly, because genetic sex makes a difference.

And the difference is reflected in the structure and function of the brain. Hence the matter at hand.

Are YOU unaware that many transgender women (?) are straight and have no intention of removing their penis?

What do you mean by "straight", and what's your point?

 

[Jeeves]

Thanks, Syne. I understand now.
Bigots need a small, discrete, expendable group on which to concentrate their collective anxiety concerning the sexual dysfunction of a puerile, paranoid society.