Freudian Paradise.......?

[invert_nexus]

Xev,

"Oriental" is considered offensive.
I'm not sure why.

Odd. What am I supposed to say? Asian? While I am mildly drawn to some southeast Asian types, I am certainly not attracted to mongols or Siberian women. I suppose they'd fall under the Oriental heading too though, wouldn't they?
Bah!
Damn people take offense at anything.
Why is it only white people that don't care if you call us names?
Whitey. Cracker. Honkey. Whatever.
What's funny is when minorities do call us names as if we should get offended. They just don't seem to understand the quizzical look of nonchalance they receive from it. "What, that doesn't offend you? You're just hiding it..."
Anyway...

I'd shrug at this point. Hetero porn is generally pretty icky.

Maybe so. Mostly due to poor acting skills, I'd imagine. But, it's not the tame rape of Japanese porn. Women seem to be enjoying themselves in most Western porn that I've ever seen.

I think it's the Japanese culture. It's sort of stuck back in Victorian times. The women aren't supposed to like it. It's supposed to be vile and cruel and demeaning. The man, in the act of fucking his woman, is a conquering warrior. This is probably the last vestige of the samurai in the Japanese today. Big strong warriors...

Consider how popular the borderline violent or BSDM-garbage has become.

Never seen any violent or bondage porn. Just not my thing. Rough sex is cool, but in rough sex you can tell through other means that the woman is still enjoying herself even if she pretends different at the time.

Perhaps a male perspective is different, but having sex is sort of a "get to know you" type thing.

Interesting perspective. And how many people have you "gotten to know"?
Kidding.
I guess I haven't got to know that many. I've actually tallied up all my partners recently and it was depressingly small. Sad, really. Thank god for porn.

Porn is basically setting up certain "bells" to trigger orgasm. It would seem that the more intense the ring, here, the more effective it would be.

Sounds right.
But, consider also the forbidden fruit.
It's that which is forbidden that is arousing.
It arouses and repels at the same time.
Once all porn was a disgusting thing to be hidden away from all. Even if the porn was just slightly overweight strippers jiggling their tits with pasties and tassles.
But, little boys got hints of this porn and lusted for it. It shaped them by being forbidden.
Nowadays, so much of porn is practically mainstream that it's boring and it takes more to arouse.
But, this doesn't explain the Japanese. Does it? I mean their porn is everywhere, not... on the public face, but still public. They don't hide it away, or at least they don't hide it too well. I suppose this has to do with their attitudes on privacy. They see and hear nothing happening on the other side of the paper wall. And they don't see the men in black suits in Kabuki theater. The Japanese are one step away from doublethink.

But then I shouldn't admit to either schitzo-analyzing my porn or to watching enough to have a sense of historical era!

You're disgusting. Does your dildo plug into the wall because you've used up all your batteries?

Does that make them more honest or more fucked-up?

Tough call. Because they seem so plain and demure on the surface yet in their closet is pornography about raping 10 year old girls. But, they don't hide it that much, do they? I mean, everyone knows just how perverted they are. I'm going to go with fucked up, because I think that their inherent politeness precludes honesty.

I think you are a connoisseur of violent de-flowering virgin rape hentai and that I need another Tequila Sunrise.

Damnit. You see right through me, don't you?

Which is itself kinda weird. I wouldn't wrap my arms around a fake male torso...

Very weird. I mean it'd be weird putting your head on a real doll let alone just a pair of kneeling legs.

Which must make them flexible bastards. Took judo classes once - it was uncomfortable as hell to kneel for more than a minute or two.

I had been thinking the same thing. I mean if I sit that way for more than a few minutes my feet falls asleep. How do they do it? And, how could any body sit that way with the weight of a head in their lap for any length of time without losing their legs from lack of circulation? A scientific marvel.

I never called you a misogynist.

Yeah. It was sort of a pre-emptive thing. If seeing subservience in the legs was a sort of rorschach test then one might conclude that the one who see it is a misogynist. Never meant to imply that you did.

No, really. I've fallen asleep with my head in a man's lap and not tried to grab his dick or anything.

What if he were naked and his nutsack were brushing the back of your head?
Kidding.

Yeah. I know what you're saying, but can honestly say that I don't ever recall a similar situation. I've never really been close to many people. Especially in such innocent ways.
The image appeals. Seems rather peaceful.

It also depends on the person. With some men, you can't think of a use for them but sex. Other men, you respect them more, you can want to share things with them.

I bet it's more or less the same for a man.

Of course you're right. Somewhat. But, I'm kinda weird on this. If a woman is of the kind that has no use but sex, then I'm not really interested. Because a lot more comes along for the ride than the part I'm interested in. Right?

Personally, I only go for girls that I would share things with. And would have them share back at me.

However, I haven't met many in that regard. And have never really been so innocent with any of the women that I have been close to. (Close to as in touching.)

I think it's a man thing. Men aren't touchers for the most part. Our limbic system is wired differently. We touch for a reason. For foreplay. Or courtship. Or friendship rituals. Men don't just hug. We don't follow each other to the bathroom (ok, unrelated to touching but still indicative of a difference in the sexes.) We're 'just different'. (Cringes waiting for the blow. Yeah. I've read you and Gendanken's exchange in the other thread...)

The image does appeal though. It really does.
But, not a fake pair of legs with realistic panty lines and skirt wrinkles. I'll pass on that. It's either reality or nothing for me. And seeing as how I'm so finicky with my women, looks like it'll be nothing.
So sad.
Cry for me.

 

[Xev]

invert nexus:

Odd. What am I supposed to say? Asian?

"Gook"

...sorry.

Why is it only white people that don't care if you call us names?
Whitey. Cracker. Honkey. Whatever.

I laugh off being called a Kraut, really I couldn't care less. I was called a Nazi once but I thought it was pretty funny under the circumstances - I'm more Saxon than Prussian anyways.

Perhaps they have more to lose.

I think it's the Japanese culture. It's sort of stuck back in Victorian times. The women aren't supposed to like it. It's supposed to be vile and cruel and demeaning. The man, in the act of fucking his woman, is a conquering warrior. This is probably the last vestige of the samurai in the Japanese today. Big strong warriors...

Yah it allows the fantasy. Whatever, they're pretty small little bastards, it's kinda funny that they should have that self-ideal.

Just not my thing.

*Shrugs*
Oh I mean the need to throw that sort of shit into otherwise good porn.
Maybe I should stop using filesharing services and actually buy things.
Nah. I'm cheap.

I guess I haven't got to know that many. I've actually tallied up all my partners recently and it was depressingly small. Sad, really. Thank god for porn.

Isn't it? But it also means you're not a disease-infested manwhore. So that's cool.

Hell, my list is probably even shorter - I think I'm the only woman who's ever consistently lied upwards when it comes to tallying her sexual partners.

On the other hand I don't mind. I understand women are biologically supposed to be more selective, notwithstanding that I am really uber-sensitive when it comes to certain things, touch being one of them. So I need a fair amount of comfort before I sleep with someone.

As far as I can tell, it's more or less a neurological characteristic and not changable, so who cares?

Nowadays, so much of porn is practically mainstream that it's boring and it takes more to arouse.

Hence extremity.

But, this doesn't explain the Japanese. Does it? I mean their porn is everywhere, not... on the public face, but still public.

Hence extremity.

Hell, Americans aren't that different. Traci Lords crossed into the mainstream and thrived on the noteriety. Jenna Jamison and Ron Jeremy have incredible name recognition and 'fluffer' is a household word. You have people talking about 'tossed salads' at work and damn! forty years ago they wouldn't have referred to sex at all.

Granted that's for my gen-y subgroup.

You're disgusting. Does your dildo plug into the wall because you've used up all your batteries?

No, but I hav'ta wear my right hand in a brace sometimes.

Tough call. Because they seem so plain and demure on the surface yet in their closet is pornography about raping 10 year old girls. But, they don't hide it that much, do they? I mean, everyone knows just how perverted they are. I'm going to go with fucked up, because I think that their inherent politeness precludes honesty.

I wonder how the women cope.
I mean how do you date someone knowing that they consume vast quantities of virgin-tentacle-rape cartoons?

I suppose I assume consumption to indicate interest. Now most of my friends, and their friends, and hence much of my potential dating pool, read/watch splatterpunk and horror to an unwholesome degree. But there's nothing really odd at dating, say, David with the complete illustrated works of the Marquis de Sade sitting next to everything ever written by Edward Lee - despite the correspondence of sex and violence in splatterpunk, there's not really an erotic charge to it. Sex is in service of violence.

With schoolgirl-demon-rape comics, there's no way to deny that it's meant to be erotically stimulating. The violence is in service of the sex.

So how the hell do you date that?
They must have mad skills at cognitive dissonence.

Damnit. You see right through me, don't you?

No, just guessed.

What if he were naked and his nutsack were brushing the back of your head?

I wouldn't fall asleep, that's for damn sure.

Yeah. I know what you're saying, but can honestly say that I don't ever recall a similar situation. I've never really been close to many people. Especially in such innocent ways.

What, physically, emotionally?
Well, a man falling asleep with his head on his male friend's lap....er, nah uh!

Very weird. I mean it'd be weird putting your head on a real doll let alone just a pair of kneeling legs.

The only analog I can see is sleeping with stuffed animals - something children do, it may provide comforting regression for an adult.

Obviously people can have sex with real dolls, so they must be able to...well, people are weird.

I mean if I sit that way for more than a few minutes my feet falls asleep. How do they do it? And, how could any body sit that way with the weight of a head in their lap for any length of time without losing their legs from lack of circulation? A scientific marvel.

Must be weight distribution.

If seeing subservience in the legs was a sort of rorschach test then one might conclude that the one who see it is a misogynist.

No, I mean read one of Andrea Dworkin's book sometimes. She's a very hardcore feminist, but she'd probably see subservience in that pose as well.

Of course you're right. Somewhat. But, I'm kinda weird on this. If a woman is of the kind that has no use but sex, then I'm not really interested. Because a lot more comes along for the ride than the part I'm interested in. Right?

Yeah, but if you like and respect someone, why would you want to fuck them?

I think it's a man thing.

Not wanting to sleep with people you don't like and being very selective about your sexual partners is a male characteristic?

Ummm.....

On what planet? 'Cause it sure ain't this one!

 

[Roman]

I think it's a man thing. Men aren't touchers for the most part. Our limbic system is wired differently. We touch for a reason. For foreplay. Or courtship. Or friendship rituals. Men don't just hug.

I disagree. I think a lot of it is just social conditioning. How old are you Invert? Almost 30? I'm a little more than half that, and my generation's grown up in an era where it's really pretty a-ok to be gay, or at the very least, more physically expressive.
My circle of male friends are all very affectionate, physically affectionate. None of us are really that gay, either. We just take comfort in each other's presence, but it's not sexual.

 

[invert_nexus]

Xev,

Perhaps they have more to lose.

Or the perception that they can lose something from being called a name. It speaks of needing external validation. Badly.

Yah it allows the fantasy. Whatever, they're pretty small little bastards, it's kinda funny that they should have that self-ideal.

Isn't it though? They sure as hell put up a mean fight in the Pacific though. Gotta give them that.

Oh I mean the need to throw that sort of shit into otherwise good porn.
Maybe I should stop using filesharing services and actually buy things.

I suppose I just haven't come across much of it. Luck of the draw, I suppose.
And, I've never bought porn in my life. Well, a magazine or two, but never video. That's what the internet is for.

Hence extremity.

Exactly. I was just elucidating on your point a bit more is all.

Hell, Americans aren't that different.

I've read some of that other thread where you're saying that Americans aren't as prudish as they're made out to be, but I'm not so sure. I didn't get involved because I don't really have an effective argument to make about it. But Americans seem to be a paradox. Sure, sex sells and is everywhere, but it seems to me that a lot of the reason why it sells so well is because it's somewhat repressed. Sure everyone knows about it. And sex-talk is not taboo as it once was, but at the same time how many would willingly display themselves sexually to the public?
Would you?
Would you strip down to skin and parade around before a crowd of leering men? Or little old ladies? Or just do your shopping in the nude? Would you let people watch you have sex? Would you like to watch your friends have sex?
Talking about it is one thing. Acting on it is another.
You went to Europe over the summer, didn't you? Go to any beaches? Did you go topless as is often the custom in Europe?

forty years ago they wouldn't have referred to sex at all.

Can you imagine Ward Cleaver sticking it to June in the darkness of their bedroom? Her, so cold and frigid. A clenched fist. Him sneaking over to her bed and taking her as god intended. So silent. So stiff. So obligatory.
Gives me the creeps.

So how the hell do you date that?
They must have mad skills at cognitive dissonence.

Like I said, doublethink. A japanese tradition.
However, culture can affect what is considered acceptable quite strongly. Perhaps the Japanese women don't feel 'loved' unless they're treated harshly. Smacked around and raped a little. Treated like children. That's what they expect and might even leave a man who does otherwise.

The only analog I can see is sleeping with stuffed animals - something children do, it may provide comforting regression for an adult.

Good point. But, it'd be like sleeping with your sister's barbie after you ripped her head and torso off.
And that's what's weird about it. The lack of the upper half. It just brings up these mental images of mannequins cut apart with a chainsaw. Something from The Cell. Lifeless and cold. Necrophilia. I suppose it's only necrophilia if you're getting hot from it. But, still, it's just fucking weird. Inherently violent in it's passiveness.

Obviously people can have sex with real dolls, so they must be able to...well, people are weird.

Shit. Those things'd be too expensive to even think about having sex with. I'd be afraid of breaking it.
And besides, think about having to clean it out afterwards... gross.

Must be weight distribution.

I was thinking that perhaps they tense and relax their muscles or something. Probably a combination of things.

No, I mean read one of Andrea Dworkin's book sometimes. She's a very hardcore feminist, but she'd probably see subservience in that pose as well.

Heh heh. So now I'm a feminist?
I can see it. A cry of outrage at the obvious subservience inherent in the pose...
I think it's a combination of western attitude towards kneeling and knowledge of how the Japanese treat their women that makes me see it as subservient. It would be interesting to see a set of male legs in the same pose to see what that inspires.

Yeah, but if you like and respect someone, why would you want to fuck them?

Shit. Why wouldn't you? That's what gets me hot.
It's true that there is the problem of fucking up your relationship with sex, but if the respect is mutual and the friendship is strong enough, it's not mandatory that it would ruin it.
I suppose I'm somewhat feminine in this. Women usually go for men they respect.
Hmm. Well, not really. I suppose they go more for men in positions of power. In fact, they tend to not have sex with men they respect. Those men tend to end up as 'just friends'.
I suppose I'm just a weirdo then. Nothing new there.

Not wanting to sleep with people you don't like and being very selective about your sexual partners is a male characteristic?

Ha!
No. I meant the part about touching.
That men don't really touch just to touch.
We don't hug.
And because of this we don't often rest our heads in people's laps for restful purposes.
I wonder about the men whose laps you slept in. Were they interested in you sexually but just didn't act on it? Or were they in touch with their feminine side?

On what planet? 'Cause it sure ain't this one!

Reminds me of a good misogynist joke.
Men are from Mars and women should just shut the hell up and get me a beer.


Roman,

I disagree. I think a lot of it is just social conditioning.

Possible. In fact, probable. At least to an extent. I have seen research that points to a physical difference in male and female brains being at least a mitigating factor in the untouchiness of men. But, it's true that the modern man is more feminine and sensitive than the old school male stereotype.

The question comes down to the old nature/nurture divide. Both have their effects on the other and neither can be wholly eradicated from the argument. But, the fact is that man has changed in this so social conditioning is obviously involved.

How old are you Invert? Almost 30?

32, actually. I'm an old man. Neolithic. A decrepit generation x'er. Remember Pac-Man? I do.

None of us are really that gay, either.

Didn't I read in a thread somewhere that you cross-dress? You also stated in that thread that you weren't gay and that some girls like cross-dressing men, but still... odd.
Or were you just joking?

The ancient babylonians were right you know. The younger generation is going to be the death of us all.
Why when I was a kid...

How about this, Roman. Would you rest your head in your male friend's lap and just go to sleep? Would you kiss a male friend? Would you touch his dick?
I suppose there is always a line to be drawn somewhere (or at least I hope so). I mean dogs lick each other all day long and don't think twice about it. It's not even sexual in the slightest. I doubt that you'd ever lick you friend's dick because it's a bit dirty or smells like the last girl he had sex with, would you?
These are, of course, extreme examples, but they demonstrate that no matter how far you go, you can always go a little further.
And the question becomes, if you can, then why don't you?

 

[Roman]

Invert,

Didn't I read in a thread somewhere that you cross-dress? You also stated in that thread that you weren't gay and that some girls like cross-dressing men, but still... odd.
Or were you just joking?

That was honesty.

The ancient babylonians were right you know. The younger generation is going to be the death of us all.
Why when I was a kid...

Roger that.

How about this, Roman. Would you rest your head in your male friend's lap and just go to sleep?

No, nor would I do it with a female friend. The proximity to genitalia is a bit extreme for me.

Would you kiss a male friend?

Well, no. Too sexual for me. But I can see what you're getting at.

Would you touch his dick?

No, again, too sexual. Would I touch a pussy of a female friend who I was unattracted to? No.

I suppose there is always a line to be drawn somewhere (or at least I hope so).

There are always lines. Even maps have lines, but most of them turn out to be arbitrary and meaningless, given enough time. But that's not to say that there are lines that I would cross, like engaging in any kind of sexual thing with a man. It's just too gross.

I mean dogs lick each other all day long and don't think twice about it. It's not even sexual in the slightest. I doubt that you'd ever lick you friend's dick because it's a bit dirty or smells like the last girl he had sex with, would you?

This is a bad example, as we aren't dogs. Dog also role in feces and think rotting salmon is an attractive odor. And as you said, what they do isn't sexual. However, licking genitalia is pretty goddamn sexual. Licking in general, is sexual. It certainly doesn't show the sort of affection a dogs licks do, as a dog licks are hygenic. Dogs lick to clean another they care about, just as primates pick fleas and lice for hygiene.

Human affection comes from the simian instinct to clean up the ones you love, just as dogs lick.

These are, of course, extreme examples, but they demonstrate that no matter how far you go, you can always go a little further.
And the question becomes, if you can, then why don't you?

Further how? Like licking? Humans licking is very different than dog licking. A backscratch or rub would be more equivalent to the way dogs lick.

 

[invert_nexus]

Roman,

The proximity to genitalia is a bit extreme for me.

A-ha!
Here you are, this touchy-feely guy. Yet, the genitalia is too close.
Interesting. Yes?

This is a bad example, as we aren't dogs.

Yeah. THe only reason I thought of it was because there's a couple of pussy-licking dogs running around the house.

While writing it, I thought of chimps as a better example, but just went with the dog example because it was more extreme.

Chimps are actually oversexed little bastards, you realize? Their balls are huge and they have sex to cement social bonds with the whole tribe. Even infants engage in sex-type behavior.

However, licking genitalia is pretty goddamn sexual.

Yeah. Ain't it great?
Breakfast of champions, they say.

Humans licking is very different than dog licking. A backscratch or rub would be more equivalent to the way dogs lick.

If we were all open and not hung up on sexual foibles, we'd gladly pick parasites out of our buddiy' pubes. Or check his ass-crack for dingle-berries. I'm glad that we're not that liberated yet.

Think of it. Tits are sexy because they're covered up. In cultures where women run around topless, people ho-hum at tits. Genitals are sexy because they're hidden. Put them on open display they become blase and boring.

Ever see those African tribes with penis sheaths? Funny shit. They extend up past their shoulders and they appear to spend a good deal of time trying to keep them from getting caught on things. While not the penis itself, touching it would certainly have connotations of touching anothers penis.

Or how about double penetrating a woman? Vagina and asshole. Balls slapping together.

Hmm. This is getting disgusting now, isn't it?
I'll quit.

(It's all natural behavior. But, look. Here I am feeling this social pressure to not talk about it. And no one's even saying anything. It's all phantoms urging me to quiet my wagging tongue. And, in this instance, I will submit. For I have said enough.)

 

[Persol]

No, really. I've fallen asleep with my head in a man's lap and not tried to grab his dick or anything.

Poor guy.

Now if he said 'want to see my H0 scale, baby' he would have probably had a different outcome.

 

[Persol]

It's all phantoms urging me to quiet my wagging tongue.

Anyone seen Frued around?

 

[Xev]

Roman:

My circle of male friends are all very affectionate, physically affectionate. None of us are really that gay, either. We just take comfort in each other's presence, but it's not sexual.

Would you sleep with your head in your buddy's lap?

invert nexus:

Or the perception that they can lose something from being called a name. It speaks of needing external validation. Badly.

Eh...
I'm playing devil's advocate.

Isn't it though? They sure as hell put up a mean fight in the Pacific though. Gotta give them that.

Eh, I respect the Asiatic race.
Beyond the Japanese and the Koreans, there were the Mongols - now the Mongols were an absolute disaster, almost as destructive and useless as the Turks have been, but still if the White race is matched by any, it is the Asiatic.

And, I've never bought porn in my life. Well, a magazine or two, but never video. That's what the internet is for.

NOO!!! It's for expanding your mind, learning about new people and new cultures, learning to love the wonderful diverse diversity of mankind...and watching Swedish lesbians get it on.

I've read some of that other thread where you're saying that Americans aren't as prudish as they're made out to be, but I'm not so sure. I didn't get involved because I don't really have an effective argument to make about it. But Americans seem to be a paradox.

Sex sells, but who's buying?
(Feel free to kill me for even knowing a Megadeath album name)

Good point, getting to it:

Would you strip down to skin and parade around before a crowd of leering men? Or little old ladies? Or just do your shopping in the nude? Would you let people watch you have sex? Would you like to watch your friends have sex?

Now, you can't say that covering ourselves is a sign that American's are prudish about sex.
Given the obesity rates in America, it may be a defense!

I'm of the opinion that people would renounce sex if they were confronted with it all the time. I don't mean pretty porn sex. I mean your fat fifty year old neighbors Dave and Ethel going at it Turkish-prison style.

A friend of mine was told me that one year he went to Ozzfest and they had a booth where women would give up their shirts and have the shirt's design painted on their bare flesh. Sexy, eh? He continued that the only women who went and did this were, in his description, "aging biker chicks with flopping boobs"

You went to Europe over the summer, didn't you? Go to any beaches? Did you go topless as is often the custom in Europe?

Not in Greece, the only topless women you'll see there are other European tourists. The women there are very well dressed, more so than American women, but their clothing is actually quite less revealing than that of American women. I could have in Germany, but I did not go to any beaches and I would feel quite odd being the only half-naked person walking about down-town Frankfurt!

Now, I've swum naked here: http://www.exploringthenorth.com/munising/home.html

And believe me, there ain't nothing like swimming naked in Lake Superior at night! Cold as shit, rocky and wavy...

And various other places in Michigan. I like nudity.

Now...

Nudity isn't at all a provocation. Really. So don't go confusing the wanting to be nude with the wanting to get it on.

I believe that the most sexually active people in the world are the Icelanders and the Finns. They probably don't like being naked all that much! Fuckin' cold there!

Can you imagine Ward Cleaver sticking it to June in the darkness of their bedroom? Her, so cold and frigid. A clenched fist. Him sneaking over to her bed and taking her as god intended. So silent. So stiff. So obligatory.
Gives me the creeps.

Dude, that's hott!
I doubt people were ever like that.

However, culture can affect what is considered acceptable quite strongly. Perhaps the Japanese women don't feel 'loved' unless they're treated harshly.

From what I gather, they aren't treated harshly.
You can say that "oh sure, that's what they say" all you like - fact still remains that the Japanese have a much lower incidence of violent crime than we do, well-educated Japanese women can be just as successful career-wise as their American counterparts and beyond the violent rape porn, the Japanese are hardly patriarchial ingrates.

There's the American stereotype, that Japanese or Asiatic women in general are soft-spoken, self-effacing and submissive. It's hardly true - well, perhaps soft-spoken, but that's a likable trait to me! - at least gathered from the admittedly limited sample of Asian women I've hung out with, trained with or had study groups with.

Hell, my ex-judo teacher's wife sometimes taught - oh man she ruled. She could flip a male student twice her size onto the mat and pin him like *that*. Try pulling the 'M. Butterfly' routine on a chick like that and she'd probably break your skull...

I suppose it's only necrophilia if you're getting hot from it. But, still, it's just fucking weird. Inherently violent in it's passiveness.

The psychologist in me is wondering if you're projecting something onto it...
As a point of comparison, this is the sequal to the "boyfriend's arm". How do you feel about that?

Heh heh. So now I'm a feminist?

Yes you are, now stay the hell away from my lingerie drawer, you bra-burner!

I think it's a combination of western attitude towards kneeling and knowledge of how the Japanese treat their women that makes me see it as subservient.

I dunno man. First written novel ever - "Tale of Gengi" written by the Japanese Lady Murasaki.
Loses a lot in translation, boring-ass aristocratic humdrum and 1000 years, but still!

It would be interesting to see a set of male legs in the same pose to see what that inspires.

http://users.skynet.be/ancient-egypt/glossary/religion/thot_scribe.jpg

That help?

Shit. Why wouldn't you? That's what gets me hot.

Oh, invert nexus, I totally respect you as a human being, oh do me, you erudite piece of man-flesh.

It's true that there is the problem of fucking up your relationship with sex, but if the respect is mutual and the friendship is strong enough, it's not mandatory that it would ruin it.

Yup, that's what every fool who ever thought "friends with benefits" would work thought.

Sorry! Actually the subject is rather close to my heart at the moment - I do hope it can work, you know, but I don't think the average person is capable of it.

I suppose I'm somewhat feminine in this. Women usually go for men they respect.
Hmm. Well, not really. I suppose they go more for men in positions of power.

Mmmkay, well first off being in a position of power and having power are two different and, these days, contradictory things.
Think of the men who have control over either you or your country. Rummy, Ashcroft, Turner, Gates -

These men are pussies! Can you see Frederick the Great making it to the White House? "Oh my god, he wants to build a strong army! That'll take money away from our government cheese fund! And how can we fight the war on drugs if he reforms the judicial system?"

Now, then - given that it is essential to respect the object of your affections. Well, how can a person be respectable if they are not powerful?!

Oh don't tell me that "oh, so and so is weak, but he has a good heart! why do women ignore him?"

Well that is a bunch of effemiate Christian bullshit. Weak people are frequently good and nice - they have to be!

In fact, they tend to not have sex with men they respect. Those men tend to end up as 'just friends'.

And the other thing is - men who are not strong annoy the fuck out of women by constantly bitching that they can't get any.

Ha!
No. I meant the part about touching.
That men don't really touch just to touch.

Neither do I, for the most part.

We don't hug.

Greek men hug. I grant that they're pretty synonymous with homosexual, but I don't think they actually are.

It's funny, here I am an American, going "whoa! The love of Plato survives", and getting chastised: "what?! men can hug!" or "hey, look at that cute lesbian couple holding hands" "why do you figure they are lesbians?"

Well duh!! Touching = sex in my view. Unless it is hugging children.

So I think culture plays a large part in it.

I wonder about the men whose laps you slept in. Were they interested in you sexually but just didn't act on it?

You make me sound like a cuddle-slut!
Interested sexually and we had acted on it. Just not at the moment.

You have an interesting take on the matter, like touching always has to lead to sex. I grant that I wouldn't touch someone like that if I wasn't sexually involved with them, but all the time?

Or were they in touch with their feminine side?

If my friend had a feminine side, he'd never leave the house but for touching it!

I have seen research that points to a physical difference in male and female brains being at least a mitigating factor in the untouchiness of men.

Yeah well whatever that difference is, women can have it too - and it is inherited. My paternal grandmother and my younger sister have the same aversion to hugs.

 

[A Canadian]

Yep, i'm with you here Xev. Some people would fuck a spider, if they knew which pair of legs to open

LOL, this thread should of been over with at this post.



That was great slotty, thanks for the larf.

 

[Lava]

I think one single word sums up most of thsi thread: projection.

The item is a pilow shaped like legs. Thats it. All the rest is what went through /your/ head.

Lava

 

[Xev]

Lava::
If you want to go that route, then the item is a molded polyurethane shape.
Seeing it as a pair of legs is projection.

 

[invert_nexus]

Seeing it as a pair of legs is projection.

Damnit!! I was going to say that!

Well, I'll go off about it in a bit more detail than you did.

Lava,

Even seeing it as a pillow is a projection. After all, it could be a back-scratcher. Or maybe a suppository. Or some type of fungus.
Everything in this world that has meaning has that meaning projected into it by the observer.
This is an inevitable consequence of life. We perceive, we judge, we project. If we didn't do so then we wouldn't even know what to do with that hunk of polyeurathane let alone see it as a pair of disembodied legs.
And, as humans are a gregarious species, we are programmed to pay especial attention to other humans. This is in our very nature. So, how can you seriously expect a human not to project something into disembodied legs? Even mannequins tend to creep some people out, but this is something meant to be touched and carressed. Special attention has been paid to attempting to make it more lifelike down to the pantylines. So, don't tell me that it's unusual that one reads more into it than a pillow shaped like a pair of legs.

Xev,

Would you sleep with your head in your buddy's lap?

I already asked him this. He wouldn't. In fact, I took it about 100 steps further and asked if he'd lick his friend's dick. I'm a sick fucker, you know?

Eh...
I'm playing devil's advocate.

I'm cool with that.
But, just to be clear. You're just telling me this as a point of information and not in a defensive way, right? I didn't say anything disparaging towards you that you would need to defend yourself against and explain that you're onlly playing devil's advocate. If you took it that way, you took it wrong.

Beyond the Japanese and the Koreans, there were the Mongols - now the Mongols were an absolute disaster, almost as destructive and useless as the Turks have been, but still if the White race is matched by any, it is the Asiatic.

I started to write a lot more about this, but erased it as it's a touch off-topic.
I'll just say this. It's true that if there is another contender for world domination and technological innovation, it'd be the asians. Their problem being their tendency to slip into eastern religious modes of thought. Transcendentalism isn't very suited for living in the world. It's more about abandoning the world than improving it. This is why India is such a piece of shit country for all their manpower. They are working on it though, got a lot of computer support guys over there nowadays. Maybe they'll learn to accept the world. Maybe not. Only time will tell.

(Damnit. I hate that I deleted what I wrote about Mongolians. It had the most beautiful pun. The mongols had their pros and cons (khans. Get it?) Anyway...)

NOO!!! It's for expanding your mind, learning about new people and new cultures, learning to love the wonderful diverse diversity of mankind...and watching Swedish lesbians get it on.

I should have said that 'free porn is one of the things the internet is good for." It's a pity that so many think that's all that it's good for. Reminds me of an analogy on the difficulty of examining things to determine their function. Someone trying to figure out how and why computers were developed would look at how they're used and determine that they were made for chatting and downloading porn.

Sex sells, but who's buying?
(Feel free to kill me for even knowing a Megadeath album name)

Kill you? Megadeth was cool back in those days. That was before the schism between Megadeth and Metallica was healed. Back when Dave was still a pissed off piece of shit and not quite so far gone in heroin... most of the time. I loved that song.

What do ya mean I hurt your feelings?
Didn't know you had any feelings.
What do ya mean I ain't kind?
Just not your kind.
What do ya mean I couldn't be the President of the United States of America?
Tell me something. It's still We the People, right?​

Wake Up Dead kicked ass too. Good mindless fun.

Anyway, did you know that subliminal messages in advertising were never banned?

I'm of the opinion that people would renounce sex if they were confronted with it all the time. I don't mean pretty porn sex. I mean your fat fifty year old neighbors Dave and Ethel going at it Turkish-prison style.

I think that renouncing sex is carrying it a little too far. I can understand that people might get grossed out, but the truth is they shouldn't get any more grossed out from Dave and Ethel naked and fucking than them clothed and shopping for ice cream. They're just humans, doing what humans do.

With that said, I find it somewhat disheartening that it always seems to be those aging biker chicks with flopping boobs that are always so eager to display themselves in such a way. I imagine that it's because they need external validation to shore up their fading self-respect. Or it could be that their tits are sagging because they spend so much time naked without a bra.

Now, I've swum naked here: http://www.exploringthenorth.com/munising/home.html

How many people do you suppose clicked that link hoping to see a picture of a naked Xev frolicking in the waters of an icy Lake Superior?

Nudity isn't at all a provocation. Really. So don't go confusing the wanting to be nude with the wanting to get it on.

No. It's not. But, it certainly does draw the mind to thoughts of sex. My mind, anyway. I think most people would agree with me. At least those that aren't used to people walking around naked. It's the forbidden fruit thing. If being naked was more commonplace then it wouldn't be sexually stimulating. It would just be another day.

I believe that the most sexually active people in the world are the Icelanders and the Finns. They probably don't like being naked all that much! Fuckin' cold there!

Gotta stay warm somehow. Plus, all the time snowed in during the winter...
I wouldn't necessarily say they don't go around naked though. People in climates like that are well-adapted to it. Hell, if nothing else, they can slather up in some bear grease or whale blubber and run around naked and toasty.
Hell, have you ever heard of the Polar Bear Club?
I can easily imagine some type of Icelandic nudity ritual.

Dude, that's hott!
I doubt people were ever like that.

Yeah. Goddamnit. Sometimes I wonder if there is anything out there but stereotypes. Idealistic exaggerations of a blurry and distant reality.

From what I gather, they aren't treated harshly.
You can say that "oh sure, that's what they say" all you like - fact still remains that the Japanese have a much lower incidence of violent crime than we do, well-educated Japanese women can be just as successful career-wise as their American counterparts and beyond the violent rape porn, the Japanese are hardly patriarchial ingrates.

Yeah. I've not heard a lot of domestic violence type stories from Japan either. I think a lot of their low crime statistics have to do with how they've adapted their minds to block out the crowd. The Japanese have truly mastered the art of being alone in a room full of people.

There's the American stereotype, that Japanese or Asiatic women in general are soft-spoken, self-effacing and submissive. It's hardly true - well, perhaps soft-spoken, but that's a likable trait to me! - at least gathered from the admittedly limited sample of Asian women I've hung out with, trained with or had study groups with.

Well, for one thing, Japanese women aren't the same as Chinese women. Chinese men are hen-pecked. I used to work for a chinese crone. Every chinese woman I've ever met (from China. Not Americanized.) has been mean and vicious. They can usually squeeze a penny pretty damn tight too. This may be a stereotype, but its one that I've gathered from personal experience. Maybe I've just had an unlucky assortment of experiences? Who knows?

Were the limited sample of Asians (specifically Japanese) that you've dealt with been Americanized or right off the boat?

Hell, my ex-judo teacher's wife sometimes taught - oh man she ruled. She could flip a male student twice her size onto the mat and pin him like *that*. Try pulling the 'M. Butterfly' routine on a chick like that and she'd probably break your skull...

Funny thing about that is, that it's all in the mind. Ever heard the parable of the 300 lb guy who thought he was a little weakling? Couldn't hurt a fly? Was bullied ferociously? Here's this guy who could probably pull people's heads right off their bodies, yet he's cowering in fear because that's his mentality.

Was she Japanese? I really don't have much experience with Japanese. I know a few Americanized Japanese. Known quite a few Chinese. And a few Cambodians and Thais. Maybe a couple of Laotians, as well... Can't remember exactly. I'm from Seattle, by the way. Lots of Asians here.

The psychologist in me is wondering if you're projecting something onto it...
As a point of comparison, this is the sequal to the "boyfriend's arm". How do you feel about that?

Heh. Not surprised. But, as I said to Lava. How can you not project something into it? I mean it's a set of human legs with no torso. We are humans and are wired to pay attention to and respond most strongly to other humans. How can you not see these disembodied legs as something unwholesome and surreal? I keep getting images from The Cell everytime I think of this. A surreal objectification of the female form to the point of... something.

Yes you are, now stay the hell away from my lingerie drawer, you bra-burner!

I really do hate bras.

I dunno man. First written novel ever - "Tale of Gengi" written by the Japanese Lady Murasaki.
Loses a lot in translation, boring-ass aristocratic humdrum and 1000 years, but still!

Didn't know that. It figures though. It was the women who sat around the house and did such things. Wrote and played instruments and yadda yadda. The men were all out hacking at each other with swords.

A thing to consider about the treatment of women is how long have they been held to be subservient as they apparently are today? Is it a modern reaction? Since the loss of the Samurai code have they resorted to lording it over their women?
Maybe it's all just stereotype. Who knows.
I mean, the men over there are rather soft-spoken too, right?
Ever see the Simpsons where the Yakuza and the Mafia get in the gang fight? The Yakuza guy gets thrown through the window and begs forgiveness of the Simpsons before going back outside to fight some more.
Stereotypes again, but dammit. What else is there?

That help?

No. Not really. For one, the legs are in the wrong position. For two, there is a torso attached. I mean just the legs. Exactly as the pillow looks.

Oh, invert nexus, I totally respect you as a human being, oh do me, you erudite piece of man-flesh.

I'm totally serious here. What is more hot than respect? How can you do someone that you don't respect?
Don't get me wrong. This isn't the way I've always been. Most of the limited action I've had was with women I didn't respect. It's just that I eventually learned that I didn't really enjoy all the excess baggage that comes along with fucking people that you don't like.

Sorry! Actually the subject is rather close to my heart at the moment - I do hope it can work, you know, but I don't think the average person is capable of it.

Yeah. It isn't for the average person. But, do you respect average people? I don't.
And good luck with the whole thing. *knock on wood* Must be something nice. I'm not the only person that's noticed a change in your personality lately. Not that I really know you to begin with. More like know of you. But. whatever...

Mmmkay, well first off being in a position of power and having power are two different and, these days, contradictory things.
Think of the men who have control over either you or your country. Rummy, Ashcroft, Turner, Gates -

True. But, I bet you each of those names you just listed have women (and men) lined up around the block wanting to fuck them. I understand what you're saying though. And it's a good point.

Now, then - given that it is essential to respect the object of your affections. Well, how can a person be respectable if they are not powerful?!

Was Einstein powerful? Nietzsche? Who else...? Mr. Rogers? (Kidding. I'm blanking on the brilliant retard type.)
I mean, hell, even I'd probably let Einstein do me. Maybe even Nietzsche... But neither of them were really powerful. Not if you met them. Face to face. Power would be the last thing you'd get from either one.

Well that is a bunch of effemiate Christian bullshit. Weak people are frequently good and nice - they have to be!

Again. What about Einstein? Was he weak then? I notice that you use the term 'frequently'. How is it that you tell the difference? Is the method accurate?

And the other thing is - men who are not strong annoy the fuck out of women by constantly bitching that they can't get any.

What!? That's how I got all my lays. If you beg long enough they always give in.

Well duh!! Touching = sex in my view. Unless it is hugging children.

But, only skin on skin? Touching through fabric somehow precludes this?

So I think culture plays a large part in it.

Yeah. As I said to Roman above, I agree with this. But, there is a nature/nurture thing going on. And in such situations it's extremely difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins. However, seeing as how there is a diversity in male touching, culture does play a part.

You realize that just because men are capable of touching and being 'sensitive' that this is not necessarily a good thing? I don't think that I need to explain to you that many women see these types of men as effeminate and weak. And, there's a good argument to be made that disposing of the gender boundaries in this way has led to the degradation of our culture to an extent. I seem to remember Fraggle making an excellent post along these lines at one time or another.

Of course, touching isn't necessarily breaking down the gender boundaries, but it is a beginning.

You make me sound like a cuddle-slut!

Aren't you?
Kidding.

Interested sexually and we had acted on it. Just not at the moment.

Ahh. Ok. So, the question becomes how long prior to this incident(s) did the sex occur? Was he satiated? Or perhaps he wasn't a very horny person? Or possibly just strong in self-control?

You have an interesting take on the matter, like touching always has to lead to sex. I grant that I wouldn't touch someone like that if I wasn't sexually involved with them, but all the time?

It doesn't always have to lead to sex, but that doesn't mean that it won't raise the thought of sex. One can think about sex without acting on it.

I suppose my take on it is precisely because I'm not a touchy feely person. Every human touch is something... special. I've never really thought about it before, but your mention of you being sensitive to touch is exactly how I'd describe it. Especially skin on skin. There's something electric about it. The heat from the skin of other. Galvanic skin response, perhaps. I don't really know.

I'm not phobic of germs or anything like that. It's nothing like that. It's just that I'm not a social person and touching is a social thing. Grooming in chimps, I suppose. I don't even like shaking hands.

But, here you are now saying that you wouldn't touch like that if you weren't sexually involved. So, even if you don't accept that touching leads to sex, you do accept that sexual intimacy is a key to allowing someone such proximity. So, they're connected somehow.

Do you think you could rest your head on the lap of a man who you wanted to have sex with yet haven't as of yet?
What would you do if you realized that he was getting aroused by your head in his lap? (With either man. One you've had sex with or one you hadn't. Whichever.)

If my friend had a feminine side, he'd never leave the house but for touching it!

A very old saying but also very true.

Yeah well whatever that difference is, women can have it too - and it is inherited. My paternal grandmother and my younger sister have the same aversion to hugs.

Interesting that you don't mention your mother or father. Maybe it's something that skips generations? I wonder if any research has ever been done on a genetic predisposition to touching?

I know with me my environment probably has something to do with it. My mother was distant with me while I was growing up. I've always been bright. As a kid I think I freaked people out with how aware I was. Like I was a 'little man' or something. I made them wary, if you can dig it. I missed out on a lot of common sense teachings this way as well. People always assumed that I already knew things. Simple things. But, I didn't. Not always.
Ah well. Such is life.

(Jesus. Long-ass post. Another thing about me is that I don't have a good editing instinct. I tend to respond to everything. So feel free to be choosy about what to respond to.)

 

[Lava]

Invert nexus:

>Lava,
>
>Even seeing it as a pillow is a projection. After all, it could be a back-scratcher. >Or maybe a suppository. Or some type of fungus.
>Everything in this world that has meaning has that meaning projected into it by the observer.

True-ish, but I think not the whole truth. We can all, or nearly all, agree on the fact that its a pair of pretend legs, thats why I call it a fact. But the other stuff really is little more than each individual exploring their own mind, it doesnt strike me as having much basis in reality beyond just personal opinion.


>And, as humans are a gregarious species, we are programmed to pay especial attention to other humans. This is in our very nature. So, how can you seriously expect a human not to project something into disembodied legs?

I never expected people not to, but I do think it helps to differentiate substantiable fact from pure personal projection.


>So, don't tell me that it's unusual that one reads more into it than a pillow shaped like a pair of legs.

I havent said its unusual, quite the opposite. In fact the thread shows that nearly everyone projects onto it, just as I do. It just seems to lack much substance at this point. If anything, it seems we're just meandering and guessing.


Lava

 

[invert_nexus]

Lava,

But the other stuff really is little more than each individual exploring their own mind, it doesnt strike me as having much basis in reality beyond just personal opinion.

Damn you!

I never expected people not to, but I do think it helps to differentiate substantiable fact from pure personal projection.

But, this thread is all about personal opinion. Isn't it? You're right. We can pretty much all agree that it's a pillow shaped like legs, but above and beyond that it's a human shaped object which is sure to draw a personal opinion from everyone. And it is that personal opinion that is the meat of the matter. If all we could say that it's a pillow then the conversation would have been over after the first post.

Know what's funny? No one ever commented on the condom train.

It just seems to lack much substance at this point. If anything, it seems we're just meandering and guessing.

Well, as you said, we're talking about a pillow shaped like human legs. How much substance do you want?

Welcome to SciForums. We're a rambling, meandering bunch at times. I know I am anyways.

Xev,

Just went over this thread again and saw the post on the arm pillow. I know you were talking about it, but thought you were just making an analogy. I didn't know there really was an arm pillow.

I'm really unsure which is worse. Both are objectifications of human anatomy. Something which Dahmer would be right at home with.

 

[Communist Hamster]

Invert Nexus
>The heat from the skin of other

Do you think that maybe pheromones have that effect? Like making the mind think and feel that there is an aura of warmth around that person, when there isn't? Worth looking into...

 

[Xev]

invert nexus:

I already asked him this. He wouldn't. In fact, I took it about 100 steps further and asked if he'd lick his friend's dick. I'm a sick fucker, you know?

What? I wouldn't lay down on a girlfriend's lap.
I don't care how open a man claims to be about touching. First off, touchy people are annoying. Second, a man who hugs another man is borderline homo.

Damn this keyboard, I cannot get used to it.
That's the thing about new computers - takes a while to get used to them. It's relevent - I'm a bit set in my ways with everything. Even cds, I have maybe ten or fifteen favorites that I prefer not just because of quality, but because I'm used to them. Comfort for me is very about established pleasure.

I think that's relevent.

I'm cool with that.
But, just to be clear. You're just telling me this as a point of information and not in a defensive way, right? I didn't say anything disparaging towards you that you would need to defend yourself against and explain that you're onlly playing devil's advocate. If you took it that way, you took it wrong.

Believe me, if I felt disparaged I'd have called you an asshat fucksickle a while back.

I started to write a lot more about this, but erased it as it's a touch off-topic.

Back onto the subject of porn! Do not deviate from the subject of porn, damn you!

I'll just say this. It's true that if there is another contender for world domination and technological innovation, it'd be the asians. Their problem being their tendency to slip into eastern religious modes of thought. Transcendentalism isn't very suited for living in the world. It's more about abandoning the world than improving it. This is why India is such a piece of shit country for all their manpower. They are working on it though, got a lot of computer support guys over there nowadays. Maybe they'll learn to accept the world. Maybe not. Only time will tell.

Very true. The White race is in its own way slipping into that sort of transcendentalism - look at the popularity of Christianity, of Buddhism. I believe it's a way of coping with huge populations.

A race war would be a pity though.
S.E Asian men are hott

(Damnit. I hate that I deleted what I wrote about Mongolians. It had the most beautiful pun. The mongols had their pros and cons (khans. Get it?) Anyway...)

That's bad.

Anyway, did you know that subliminal messages in advertising were never banned?

I thought they were found to be ineffective.

I think that renouncing sex is carrying it a little too far. I can understand that people might get grossed out, but the truth is they shouldn't get any more grossed out from Dave and Ethel naked and fucking than them clothed and shopping for ice cream. They're just humans, doing what humans do.

I'm being facetious.
Yes, they would still have sex.
But I do wonder if sex would lose its mystique if it were completely public. Perhaps it's a limited point of view, but I rather feel that sex gains something if it's repressed. If it's dirty. If it's bad. If it's unchristian.

Michel Foucault showed pretty convincingly that Westerners have had reservations about the sexual act since before the Christian era. We tend to blame Christian guilt for American screwiness about sex, but I bet it's more than that.

I wonder. I love hiking, outdoorsy type things. They've got a very wholesome image - so why do I think sex would be boring if it was just as wholesome as a granola bar?

With that said, I find it somewhat disheartening that it always seems to be those aging biker chicks with flopping boobs that are always so eager to display themselves in such a way.

As I explained to my friend:

"Well, the young attractive women know that they will get hit on. Hell, to the point where it may get annoying. The older ones have to be a bit more shrill"

No. It's not. But, it certainly does draw the mind to thoughts of sex. My mind, anyway. I think most people would agree with me. At least those that aren't used to people walking around naked. It's the forbidden fruit thing. If being naked was more commonplace then it wouldn't be sexually stimulating. It would just be another day.

Yeah basically.

Hell, have you ever heard of the Polar Bear Club?
I can easily imagine some type of Icelandic nudity ritual.

The Russians have something like that. Steam baths in the dead of winter, they pour vodka on the glowing hot rocks that line the baths, and just sit there naked.

Ritual, yes. But everyday would be impractical.

Yeah. Goddamnit. Sometimes I wonder if there is anything out there but stereotypes. Idealistic exaggerations of a blurry and distant reality.

People are people, they've probably been more or less the same throughout history.
I think idealizing either the past or the future is pretty ingrained.

Yeah. I've not heard a lot of domestic violence type stories from Japan either. I think a lot of their low crime statistics have to do with how they've adapted their minds to block out the crowd. The Japanese have truly mastered the art of being alone in a room full of people.

In terms of rape and domestic violence, under-reporting could be an issue.
But given that most Japanese are industrialized and well-educated, I do doubt it is a huge huge factor.

Well, for one thing, Japanese women aren't the same as Chinese women. Chinese men are hen-pecked. I used to work for a chinese crone. Every chinese woman I've ever met (from China. Not Americanized.) has been mean and vicious. They can usually squeeze a penny pretty damn tight too. This may be a stereotype, but its one that I've gathered from personal experience. Maybe I've just had an unlucky assortment of experiences? Who knows?

The Shadow knows.

Were the limited sample of Asians (specifically Japanese) that you've dealt with been Americanized or right off the boat?

Half and half.

Funny thing about that is, that it's all in the mind. Ever heard the parable of the 300 lb guy who thought he was a little weakling? Couldn't hurt a fly? Was bullied ferociously? Here's this guy who could probably pull people's heads right off their bodies, yet he's cowering in fear because that's his mentality.

Have you ever noticed that large people, though, tend to be fairly nice people? I don't mean fat but you know, like the people best able to kick ass are the least likely to.

Part of why I do the martial arts thing is to deal with my pent-up aggression. I've found that the more capable of violence I am, both physically and mentally, the nicer I am. I'm sure if it were not for my fear of being arrested, I'd be the sweetest little thing.

There's this line in one of the Conan books - civilized men are incredibly more rude than barbarians, because they know they don't risk having their skulls split.

Yes, she is Japanese - native too, here on a work visa or something, anyways makes more than enough money managing her family business to come here, go there, come here again.

Heh. Not surprised. But, as I said to Lava. How can you not project something into it? I mean it's a set of human legs with no torso. We are humans and are wired to pay attention to and respond most strongly to other humans. How can you not see these disembodied legs as something unwholesome and surreal? I keep getting images from The Cell everytime I think of this. A surreal objectification of the female form to the point of... something.

And as I said, just seeing it as a pillow is a projection.
I dunno - I wouldn't sleep with it, nor with a boyfriend arm. But I don't know how violent it is.
Hmmm...

I really do hate bras.

Uncomfortable things.
I suppose they're better than corsets, which they replaced, but then I have no idea what a corset is like.

Didn't know that. It figures though. It was the women who sat around the house and did such things. Wrote and played instruments and yadda yadda. The men were all out hacking at each other with swords.

*Shrugs*
Women generally have higher status in warrior cultures than in agragarian. Take the Spartans and the Athenians - reading a book about the Spartans - apparently the Spartan women had it fairly good. The Athenian women were just treated as any other domestic servant.

A thing to consider about the treatment of women is how long have they been held to be subservient as they apparently are today?

And how much of that female subservience is romanticised myth?
I think the feminists exaggerate how bad it was, men exaggerate how bad it was because it rather appeals to their sensibility - look, way back when I had control just through this little bit of flesh between my legs - well not all men of course.

I bet it's a lot of bullshit. In English class we read Chaucer and spoke a bit about the way women were portrayed - it was commonplace to beat your wife.

And then I pointed out that it was pretty commonplace to beat your husband.

I am sure that authority generally went to men in the past. But then as of now, a woman of spirit could have taken care of herself quite well.

Is it a modern reaction? Since the loss of the Samurai code have they resorted to lording it over their women?

That's a valid point.
It applies to modern men in any country. So this doesn't count as 'lording over', but here's an example -

One physics lab I had once involved moving a bunch of equipment around. Some was quite heavy, I ended up grabbing a thirty pound drum of somethingorother. My professer offers to carry it, as he only has a few light things. I say nope, I'm cool - and he jokingly replies fine, just emasculate me why don't you?!

Now here we are, both science geeks, both destined to rely on our brains more than anything else, and there's the little -tension- about what we're physically able to do. Kinda ludicrious.

I'm totally serious here. What is more hot than respect? How can you do someone that you don't respect?

No baggage.

Yeah. It isn't for the average person. But, do you respect average people? I don't.

Nope, respecting the average person is a contradiction in terms.

And good luck with the whole thing. *knock on wood* Must be something nice. I'm not the only person that's noticed a change in your personality lately.

This place is like junior high all over again. Thanks though.

True. But, I bet you each of those names you just listed have women (and men) lined up around the block wanting to fuck them. I understand what you're saying though. And it's a good point.

Gates? Rummy? Cheney? Trump's sortof a popular one, but more women want to do Brad Pitt than want to do Donald Trump.

Was Einstein powerful? Nietzsche?

Not socially. Intellectually. Both will be remembered long after Gates is forgotten. Einstein saw the architecture of the cosmos - can you get any more powerful?

I'd do Einstein, Einstein was pretty hot as a young man.

Again. What about Einstein? Was he weak then? I notice that you use the term 'frequently'. How is it that you tell the difference? Is the method accurate?

Naw, definitely he was not.
Intuitively, and through observation. Accurate? Is anything accurate? I can't know both the position and momentum of a particle, what's accurate?

What!? That's how I got all my lays. If you beg long enough they always give in.

Ha ha.

But, only skin on skin? Touching through fabric somehow precludes this?

Touching through fabric is either something I'd do because I'd be rude not to or a courtship.

Courtship...that's the word. Touching a man is courting him. I don't court often and I never court unless serious. Hell, I don't like even *flirting* because it seems to be a promise of something I don't fully intend to deliever.

Back to physical actions - I'm an academic. I should be happy with a world in which social nuances and not physical strength are determining. But I'm not. I'd be a good Valkyrie, I'm not much good at anything else.

You realize that just because men are capable of touching and being 'sensitive' that this is not necessarily a good thing?

*Blinks*
Did you need to ask?
Sensitivity's a mixed bag. Depends. I'm physically, mentally quite sensitive. I can go into raptures over the texture of a nice fabric and I can be depressed by an ugly environment. Emotionally I'm a brute. I've dated the "sensitive" type, quite by accident I assure you!, can't stand it.

The old Norse were that way. See their artwork? Exquisite taste.

I don't think that I need to explain to you that many women see these types of men as effeminate and weak.

Just "many" and not "most" or "all"?

And, there's a good argument to be made that disposing of the gender boundaries in this way has led to the degradation of our culture to an extent.

Not really. I suppose if you're stupid and need culture to spell out your role and way of being, than yeah, you're fucked if things start changing. Since most people are stupid and need culture to do that, they're fucked.

"Men are confused!"

I like that. Degradation of our culture? Oh bring it on baby. Nur uberleben die Stark. Ever seen "Fight Club"?

I seem to remember Fraggle making an excellent post along these lines at one time or another.

Fraggle is a ersine little pussy himself.

Of course, touching isn't necessarily breaking down the gender boundaries, but it is a beginning.

Hey, it's not like women are the ones in authority. If men are suffering because they've created a simulacra of reality in which social adeptness is more important than mental or physical strength - ha ha, you fuckers deserve it.

Nah, men aren't confused. Weak men are. Don't know what women expect of them, increasingly useless due to feminism - if male suicide rates go through the roof, that will be excellent. Culling the herd.

Aren't you?
Kidding.

Be a great title.

Ahh. Ok. So, the question becomes how long prior to this incident(s) did the sex occur? Was he satiated? Or perhaps he wasn't a very horny person? Or possibly just strong in self-control?

Again - you're dealing with cloth. It's not very arousing. We watched a movie, I dozed off, we probably did end up fooling around later.

I suppose my take on it is precisely because I'm not a touchy feely person. Every human touch is something... special. I've never really thought about it before, but your mention of you being sensitive to touch is exactly how I'd describe it. Especially skin on skin. There's something electric about it. The heat from the skin of other. Galvanic skin response, perhaps. I don't really know.

Galvanic is right. Paraphrasing Leo Sacher-Masoch, a man is rather like an augmented electric battery. Physical contact is an exchange of energy, a spark if you will.

Someone mentioned pheremones. Whatever, it's chemical-electrical, like the oxidization of zinc that they showed us in chemistry courses.

I'm not phobic of germs or anything like that. It's nothing like that. It's just that I'm not a social person and touching is a social thing. Grooming in chimps, I suppose. I don't even like shaking hands.

For me, it's the connection that touch is supposed to imply.
I don't like touching. I'll smile out of courtesy, but I don't do it all the time. I'm not even really happy with making eye contact all the time.

Why? It's really the presumption of intimacy. Not many people I like getting intimate with. Besides intimacy always leads to aggression - or aggresion allows intimacy. I don't think that would work with most people.

But, here you are now saying that you wouldn't touch like that if you weren't sexually involved. So, even if you don't accept that touching leads to sex, you do accept that sexual intimacy is a key to allowing someone such proximity. So, they're connected somehow.

Oh they are definitely connected.

Do you think you could rest your head on the lap of a man who you wanted to have sex with yet haven't as of yet?

Yeah, but as a tease.

What would you do if you realized that he was getting aroused by your head in his lap? (With either man. One you've had sex with or one you hadn't. Whichever.)

That would be the purpose of the tease.

Interesting that you don't mention your mother or father. Maybe it's something that skips generations? I wonder if any research has ever been done on a genetic predisposition to touching?[/quote[

My father does as well, I was leaving him out because of course he's male.
Back when the idea of autistic spectrum disorders became popular, I figured that was part of the explanation. Those, and the resistence to touch, the resistence to intimacy, the increased perceptual/mental sensitivity, have a definite genetic component.

I know with me my environment probably has something to do with it. My mother was distant with me while I was growing up. I've always been bright. As a kid I think I freaked people out with how aware I was. Like I was a 'little man' or something. I made them wary, if you can dig it. I missed out on a lot of common sense teachings this way as well. People always assumed that I already knew things. Simple things. But, I didn't. Not always.

Sounds pretty familiar.
Do you think that accounts for some of your selectiveness?

Last thing -

I have a biography of Nietzsche written by someone fairly critical of his ideas. Not hostile but not hagiographic. You get the idea. I read it a year ago - and obviously this stuck with me, because I still remember it - the author points out that Nietzsche had really no idea how "normal people" lived.

Sounds like me. I've remedied it a lot, but a lot of common sense things I just "don't get". Like the lap pillow.

You saw quite immediately the position as submissive, servile. I'd tend to see the same thing - it's part of what makes me so combative. I have a tendancy to see eh, hostile or controlling motives in fairly normal behaviour.

Which is part of what makes Nietzsche so famous, he showed the "will to power" underlying even things like altruism and friendship. Which is all well and good, I'm quite happy with the will to power.

But the average person wouldn't see it. They'd accept as given.

See what I'm getting at?

 

[Communist Hamster]

>the people best able to kick ass are the least likely to.

Yes, that's true. Someone in my school who's like that.

 

[gendanken]

Allright, you dun asked for it.

Invert:

What does it say exactly? That they have limits? You realize just how disgusting the Japanese can be about sexual toys and pornography? Their only limits seem to be an aversion for pubic hair.

No, I don't realize.

I've never seen a porn flick in my life, I'm a mutant of cold logic- this means my sexual experience is wack so I posted here in ignorance.
You’re a seasoned pornosopher- so you’re acquainted with Asian depravity- I only get to see the sansho and admirable discipline.

Its a pillow, but to say it screams of submission is an exaggeration.
My teddy bears screamed of animal cruelty, then, all dolled down to impotence.
No?
And my lace bra screams of weakness?
Not to say harmless wittle pillows or things can't be used as control mechanisms or suggestions, but its men buying them not women.
Nail polish and fully wuff commercialized sweet shit- that's control.

And what's so degenerate about it? Think about it. You could comb it and braid it and lubricate it and hug it and kiss it and call it Shirley.

And I could call you a desperate hobo with issues for doing it.

OOHhh, *snap*. One for Gendanken.
On my idiot day, no less. *funeral grin*

It seems to me that this is more a matter of submission and power than sex. Did you look at the picture? Don't know about you, but to me the pose of the legs oozes submission.

Very Japanese.
Very feminine.

Its not about sex.
Or power.
Its a fucking pillow.

Its about innovation and too much time on one's hands- slapstick even.
The Chinese are limited in their breeding.
Both Chinese and Japanese children are taken from their homes and bred by the government into super athletes- at six.
Everywhere, marriage is glamorized and the weak praise weaknesses.
The strong are made to feel awkward and wrong without anyone forcing them to.
A man will touch me to seduce, but say otherwise.
That's the language of "submission and power"

This is a pillow you'd find at Spencer's Gifts.
You're almost a leftist in this, hyperventilating- "My god! No bars in the bathrooms?! This place reeks of prejudice for the handicapped! Poor Timmy, fighting for piss man, damn the system!"

Do you also object to Ralphie's lamp?

Never heard of it. Does it have nudity? The occasional dildo?

Nope.

"My Messy Bedroom" features weaklings deluding themselves into feelings of power by yakking on sex.

I watched it for the same reason I do Pat Robertson.


Roman:

My circle of male friends are all very affectionate, physically affectionate. None of us are really that gay, either. We just take comfort in each other's presence, but it's not sexual.

Of course you do.
Cold as fuck in Alaska, no?
Ya'll huddle asexually.

You seem as inert sexually as I was- yet you cross dress.
Odd.

 

[Lava]

> Its not about sex.
> Or power.
> Its a fucking pillow.

Exactly, lol


Lava


PS

>Nail polish and fully wuff commercialized sweet shit- that's control.

yeah, I agree, though in a roundabout kinda way. Its all voluntary.


> and the weak praise weaknesses.