Free Will and Determinism

H

humbleteleskop

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Write4U said:
Oh, that just sounds wrong to me. The earth's moon "rules" the collective self of the Solar system? Perhaps I misunderstand.
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You made up your own sentence, which is not true. It's always plural, it's always parts that rule over their collective-self entity. The Earth's moon does not have the total rule of what solar system does, it's just a part of it, it's all the planets and moons in symbiosis that rule or define what solar system does. Just like electrons and protons rule or define what atoms do, and so atoms rule or define what molecules do, and so molecules define what cells do, and so on to societies, ecosystems, planets and galaxies.


I keep hearing "irreducible complexity". No one has found an irreducibly complex system yet. Everything is reducible to its smallest "components" or "behaviors" (such as wave/particle duality of photons).
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It's about a "clock" (atoms/molecules/cells) made of many different cogs, wheels and gears spinning around according to laws of physics, and we are musing about the possibility this clock could actually rule over its cogs and truly be the master of its own destiny. The question is whether there can exist "free will" or not.
 
humbleteleskop said:
You made up your own sentence, which is not true. It's always plural, it's always parts that rule over their collective-self entity. The Earth's moon does not have the total rule of what solar system does, it's just a part of it, it's all the planets and moons in symbiosis that rule or define what solar system does. Just like electrons and protons rule or define what atoms do, and so atoms rule or define what molecules do, and so molecules define what cells do, and so on to societies, ecosystems, planets and galaxies.

OK, the whole is the sum of its parts. Now what?

It's about a "clock" (atoms/molecules/cells) made of many different cogs, wheels and gears spinning around according the laws of physics, and we are musing about the possibility this clock could actually rule over its cogs and truly be the master of its own destiny. The question is whether there can exist "free will" or not.
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Why assume that? If everything works with mathematical precision, we have Determinism, and any Uncertainty lies in the smallest of the smallest cogs, which cannot be perfect all the time. Perhaps a string may be prevented from vibrating at a certain frequency, and according to the butterfly effect, a tiny anomaly may result in unimaginable cosmic events.

I believe the condition you describe is called "standing waves". I previously mentioned "wave interference" . IMO, the collapse of all those waves result in our reality.
If the string is held at both ends, forcing zero movement at the ends, the ends become zeroes or nodes of the wave. The length of the string then becomes a measure of which waves the string will entertain: the longest wavelength is called the fundamental. Half a wavelength of the fundamental fits on the string. Shorter wavelengths also can be supported as long as multiples of half a wavelength fit on the string. The frequencies of these waves all are multiples of the fundamental, and are called harmonics or overtones. For example, a guitar player can select an overtone by putting a finger on a string to force a node at the proper position between the ends of the string, suppressing all harmonics that do not share this node.
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IMO, we have a measure of free will in our sphere of influence, but all decisions will be based on "learned response" (still deterministic).
Interesting articles on "mirror neural networks" are coming out now. It appears that everything in the universe has a mirror image. Perhaps it may be important discovering the secret of "communication at a distance"?

As to the clock?
Well yes, without oiling (and the implied mechanic) eventually the cogs would bind up and slow the clock down. Do you think it would have an effect on spacetime? And in the case of the caesium particle, eventually it will spend itself and stop altogether. Will time stop in the universe or will time stop for that caesium element?
The radioactive isotope caesium-137 has a half-life of about 30 years and is used in medical applications, industrial gauges, and hydrology. Although the element is only mildly toxic, it is a hazardous material as a metal and its radioisotopes present a high health risk if released into the environment..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium
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Write4U said:
Why assume that? If everything works with mathematical precision, we have Determinism, and any Uncertainty lies in the smallest of the smallest cogs, which cannot be perfect all the time. Perhaps a string may be prevented from vibrating at a certain frequency, and according to the butterfly effect, a tiny anomaly may result in unimaginable cosmic events.
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"Unpredictable will" is not the same as "free will". If something stays random it's just as failure to control it as if it stays deterministic. For a free will to exist it must be able to control what is actually going to happen. If something is uncertain "free will" should be able to make it determined. And if something is predetermined "free will" should be able to make it uncertain.


IMO, we have a measure of free will in our sphere of influence, but all decisions will be based on "learned response" (still deterministic).
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What is that "measure of free will" you speak of?


Well yes, without oiling (and the implied mechanic) eventually the cogs would bind up and slow the clock down. Do you think it would have an effect on spacetime? And in the case of the caesium particle, eventually it will spend itself and stop altogether. Will time stop in the universe or will time stop for that caesium element?
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I am asking how could brain ever be able to control what it does if what the brain does is controlled by the laws of physics? In other words, can there be "free will" if the brain can not actually violate and take control over the laws of physics?
 
humbleteleskop said:
I am asking how could brain ever be able to control what it does if what the brain does is controlled by the laws of physics? In other words, can there be "free will" if the brain can not actually violate and take control over the laws of physics?
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Perhaps the laws of physics do not control the brain as part of the laws of nature/physics in that we are given free will, making us independent of those laws in that particular regard.
 
paddoboy said:
Perhaps the laws of physics do not control the brain as part of the laws of nature/physics...
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How can it possibly not be a part of laws of nature/physics? You mean the brain does something to violate the laws of physics?


... in that we are given free will, making us independent of those laws in that particular regard.
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What did you just say, independent of the laws of physics? Kind of like telekinesis, mind over matter?
 
humbleteleskop said:
How can it possibly not be a part of laws of nature/physics? You mean the brain does something to violate the laws of physics?
What did you just say, independent of the laws of physics? Kind of like telekinesis, mind of over matter?
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The laws of physics dictates free will, so again in that regard, and that regard only, we are free to do and think what we like.
:shrug:
 
paddoboy said:
The laws of physics dictates free will, so again in that regard, and that regard only, we are free to do and think what we like.
:shrug:
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If the laws of physics dictate "free will", then it is not free, is it? Free will should dictate the laws of physics to be free, right?
 
humbleteleskop said:
If the laws of physics dictate "free will", then it is not free, is it? Free will should dictate the laws of physics to be free, right?
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The laws of physics are what defines the laws of physics.
Free will is what defines free will.
Science is what we know: Philosophy is what we don't know.
 
paddoboy said:
The laws of physics are what defines the laws of physics.
Free will is what defines free will.
Science is what we know: Philosophy is what we don't know.
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You mean free will is like "soul", non-material, separate and independent from the laws of physics?

So can free will make a difference in the world of the laws of physics if it can not control those laws of physics?
 
humbleteleskop said:
You mean free will is like "soul", non-material, separate and independent from the laws of physics?

So can free will make a difference in the world of the laws of physics if it can not control those laws of physics?
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Your misinterpretation is astonishing.
What I posted is what I meant.
Think about it.
 
paddoboy said:
Your misinterpretation is astonishing.
What I posted is what I meant.
Think about it.
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If you would like me to understand what you said just answer the questions please:

1.) Do you mean free will is non-material, separate and independent from the laws of physics? No, yes?

2.) Can free will make a difference in the world of the laws of physics if it can not control those laws of physics? No, yes?
 
Write4U said:
And for a closing line, we would need to conclude that "God is a molecule". Do you see the conflict in the physical part of that condition?
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God is a molecule of what parts? We would not need to conclude that or anything like it, unless we enjoyed some hallucinogenic drugs or lost our minds otherwise.


Are we able to use the laws of physics "at will" or are we driven by the laws of physics regardless of our occasional protestations?
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That's the question, kind of. I say if the laws of physics are unchangeable then "free will" can not make any difference. For free will to exist it must be able not only to bend the laws of physics, but rule over them. Telekinesis, literally - mind over matter. Without actual power of telekinesis free mind can not exist. It's pure logic. If it cannot command, then it must obey. And if it must obey, then it is not free. Isn't that right?
 
humbleteleskop said:
That doesn't answer my question. The question is: if the laws of physics are unchangeable can "free will" make any difference?
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ok, I'll have a stab. If you have knowledge of the laws of physics, you may be able to manipulate certain events or circumvent certain physical laws. This is mostly done as an "anticipated" preventive measure, i.e. Building a dike to prevent future flooding.
(of course this is based on our knowledge of persistent flooding "in the past")

We have a litle wiggle room in the future. The past is only Deterministic.
 
Write4U said:
ok, I'll have a stab. If you have knowledge of the laws of physics, you may be able to manipulate certain events or circumvent certain physical laws. This is mostly done as an "anticipated" preventive measure, i.e. Building a dike to prevent future flooding.
(of course this is based on our knowledge of persistent flooding "in the past")

We have a litle wiggle room in the future. The past is only Deterministic.
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I'm not sure that is a good example of circumventing any physical laws?
Firstly, I don't believe it can be done. But certain "actions" may be able to be undertaken, to give a "perception"of circumventing the laws of physics. I'm thinking of "Alcubierre drive" type of arrangements, where we may have the technology to warp, bend, twist spacetime, around a starship, to give a perception of FTL travel.
But even that isn't breaking any known physical or GR laws.
 
Write4U said:
If you have knowledge of the laws of physics, you may be able to manipulate certain events or circumvent certain physical laws.
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That's not it. Your mind has to "drive" your body and command it to do those certain things. If your physical body is governed by the laws of physics, then how can your mind make it do anything different? It follows from there then for your mind to be able to control your body it need the power to violate the laws of physics and take control over them, it needs the power of telekinesis, i.e. "mind over matter". Right?
 
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