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MetaKron said:
Like I said, use creative accounting and it appears not to violate the second law. The fact is that the second law is true only in severely limited cases. And you are still an asshole
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The second law is true and applies in ALL cases without exception.

And name calling gets you nothing but another infraction report.

Here's an idea: file a class-action lawsuit against GE, Carrier and all the other big makers of heat pumps for deceptive advertising and false perdormance claims. And don't forget all the hundreds of outlets that sell them and all the HVAC companies/cxontractors that install them, too. Since you have the "facts" on your side you stand to win millions!
 
Read-Only said:
The second law is true and applies in ALL cases without exception.

And name calling gets you nothing but another infraction report.

Here's an idea: file a class-action lawsuit against GE, Carrier and all the other big makers of heat pumps for deceptive advertising and false perdormance claims. And don't forget all the hundreds of outlets that sell them and all the HVAC companies/cxontractors that install them, too. Since you have the "facts" on your side you stand to win millions!
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I wonder if I can ban your nonsensical tripe from replying to me.
 
Read-Only said:
The second law is true and applies in ALL cases without exception.

And name calling gets you nothing but another infraction report.

Here's an idea: file a class-action lawsuit against GE, Carrier and all the other big makers of heat pumps for deceptive advertising and false perdormance claims. And don't forget all the hundreds of outlets that sell them and all the HVAC companies/cxontractors that install them, too. Since you have the "facts" on your side you stand to win millions!
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What name-calling? I didn't see any name-calling. Did anyone else see any name-calling?

No, the manufacturers of heat pumps have achieved what would be called perpetual motion (although wrongly) were they to use it to generate electricity, and they have proven the invalidity of the 2nd law.
 
What a ridiculous argument. The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. Heat pumps are just thermal-energy transporters between separate systems. Just as you can carry coals to Newcastle, you can argue back and forth about the implications of carrying thermal energy from A to B all you like. But there's nothing mysterious in the pumps I happen to install as part of geothermal home heating systems, nor is their mystery in our refrigerators, in our air conditioners, etc. There's nothing to argue here, except a parsing of terms.
 
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Then the 2nd amendment to the laws of thermodynamics only applies to other than real-world systems. Thus it is wrong to say that the 2nd law forbids the existence of machines that employ a certain form of perpetual motion.

Torturing Read-Only is fun.
 
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MetaKron said:
What name-calling? I didn't see any name-calling. Did anyone else see any name-calling?
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Right! I happened to see it JUST before you edited it out.

No, the manufacturers of heat pumps have achieved what would be called perpetual motion (although wrongly) were they to use it to generate electricity, and they have proven the invalidity of the 2nd law.
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That doesn't even deserve a comment.
 
MetaKron: "it is wrong to say that the 2nd law forbids the existence of machines that employ a certain form of perpetual motion."

No it's not. By definition, a "perpetual motion machine" is a pipe-dream that only exists in fantasies ignorant of basic physics. Wikipedia among other sources chronicles the convoluted history of these recurrent hoaxes.

PMMs (Infoplease):
A machine that would produce more energy in the form of work than is supplied to it in the form of heat would violate the first law of thermodynamics, which is a special case of the law of conservation of energy (see conservation laws, in physics), and is known as a perpetual-motion machine of the first kind. A machine that would completely convert heat from a warm body into work, without letting any heat flow into a cooler body, would violate the second law of thermodynamics, which is concerned with entropy changes, and is known as a perpetual-motion machine of the second kind.
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1st Law of Thermodynamics:
The increase in the internal energy of a thermodynamic system is equal to the amount of heat energy added to the system minus the work done by the system on the surroundings.
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2nd Law of Thermodynamics:
Heat cannot of itself pass from a colder to a hotter body; temperature differences between systems in contact with each other tend to even out and that work can be obtained from these non-equilibrium differences, but that loss of heat occurs, in the form of entropy, when work is done.
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Heat Pump Basics from How Stuff Works.

Let's not confuse commonplace, functional devices like heat pumps with quackery.
 
Read-Only said:
Right! I happened to see it JUST before you edited it out.

That doesn't even deserve a comment.
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I don't see how you happened to see an insult. It wasn't visible when I looked back at the message. I did see a formatting error or two to edit. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Considering your first message on this board, it's funny as hell to watch you twisting at the end of this line. :D
 
Then refute what I "misunderstand" point-by-point:

PMMs by definition violate the laws of thermodynamics; are quackery

LOT-1 Conservation of Energy

LOT-2 Entropy and Work

Heat Pump operating principles
 
MetaKron said:
I don't see how you happened to see an insult. It wasn't visible when I looked back at the message. I did see a formatting error or two to edit. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Considering your first message on this board, it's funny as hell to watch you twisting at the end of this line. :D
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Bull! It was there and I clearly saw it - you've NO credibility with me anyway.

Twisting???? Not at all. I'm not even the least bit inclined to try and explain away your foolishness over thermodynamics and how heat pumps actually work (which, in truth, is quite simple and requires NO "creative accounting" as you called it).

I suppose you also think that pumping oil to the surface of a well requires more energy than you can recover from the oil, eh? Yeah, that's a different topic entirely but it perfectly parallels your lack of understanding about heat pumps.
 
MetaKron said:
Clearly saw what? Did you edit it out? You quoted something, was it in there?
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Stop trying to be cute and acting so innocent. You called me an asshole and then edited it out yourself - so of course it didn't show up in the quote.

As I said, your personal integrity was already shot to pieces with me before I even made my first post. And all you've done since - like this little episode - just reinforces that.
 
I'm sorry. Honestly, when I read over my last few messages to you, I couldn't see anything except where I said that you really should go to hell. I don't know what else you "plainly saw."

You're also trying to tell me that the 2nd law works outside of closed systems when you want it to.

Are you sure the insult isn't in that quote at the top of this page? If you give me ten dollars I might tell you what I did.
 
MetaKron said:
I'm sorry. Honestly, when I read over my last few messages to you, I couldn't see anything except where I said that you really should go to hell. I don't know what else you "plainly saw."

You're also trying to tell me that the 2nd law works outside of closed systems when you want it to.

Are you sure the insult isn't in that quote at the top of this page? If you give me ten dollars I might tell you what I did.
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Not the least bit interested. End of story.
 
It's in the quoted material but it's not in the messages that I wrote. How did that happen, Read-Only? Did you edit it in?

If you don't want people to play games with you, don't start shit with them.
 
MetaKron said:
It's in the quoted material but it's not in the messages that I wrote. How did that happen, Read-Only? Did you edit it in?

If you don't want people to play games with you, don't start shit with them.
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Oh, give it up. You aren't about to bait me into dropping to your level so you might as well quit trying - or just keep on, if that suits you. I really don't care what you do or say since so little of it is believeable anyway. And no - there is nothing edited in - can't you even read it?
 
You don't know how you could see it and no one else could and how come you can't see it now, so you're pretty simple-minded. Also, I don't think that it is possible for you to rise to my level.

The fact is that the heat pump is an example of a perpetual motion of the first type. It requires an actual input of energy at the cold side, but that fact didn't keep people from writing the definition of a perpetual motion machine of the first type.

You see, my method of insulting you is like trying to explain a scientific concept to you. It's there but you can't see it.
 
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