Fraggle:Conduct Unbecoming

[quadraphonics]

hi i am fraggle and i am here to discuss getting rid of your religion

Probably the most efficacious way doesn't involve confrontation at all. You just let the institutions become increasingly irrelevant and wait for people to give up on their own. Like has been going on in, say, Scandanavia for generations now.

so give me a methodology where you leave an individual belief system intact while simultaneously getting rid of its support system.

I don't recall asserting that any individual belief systems wouldn't be altered in the process. I'm pretty sure that was the whole idea, no?

What I said was that I don't see where Fraggle's called for any actual believers to be killed.

are you also burning bibles in the process?

Hard to envision a scenario in which that would be anything but counterproductive.

do you envision a resistance?

"A resistance" as in, like, the French Resistance or something? The methods that I could see working (see, again, Scandanavia) would seem to suggest "no." It would have to be more a gradual mass movement, then some regime of enforced atheism. If Stalin couldn't pull that one off, I doubt it's possible at all.

But, yeah, church leaders and the like would "resist" such a trend. Which is exactly why you wouldn't want to do something like that in an oppositional, confrontational way - it would empower said leaders.

when you reply to this are you presuming to speak for frag (chuckle)

I am presuming to speak about Frag, and have tried to make it clear when I am assessing his statements, and when I am offering my own views. If there's any confusion, go ahead and let me know.

nor have i noticed any overt pronouncement. it is just that frag does not consider the implications of his desired state of affairs

So you've dreamed up the most hysterical, prejudicial interpretation possible, and want Fraggle to be accountable to it. Not impressed and, indeed, you don't appear to be getting any traction to speak of with this line.

....i say! wtf!! i hope that off world gulag is sans ovens

He didn't suggest a gulag - he suggested an entire planet for them to run as they please, where they'd be in total control and could do whatever they want without any complaint from him or anyone else.

Not that it isn't cheap and trollish to go and sieze on what is obviously an expression of frustration - one phrased in science fiction terms, at that - and insist that we read it literally. But when the quotes you cherry-pick don't even superficially match your hysterical accusations, the result is asinine.

 

[Gustav]

Notice how you're writing your posts in a European language? And probably wear clothes, listen to music, read books, and eat food all dervied primarily from European cultural traditions? And are, probably, immediately differentiable, by sight alone, from people who hale from Africa, East Asia, etc.? That's "ethnic identity."

indeed
my palate hardly rebels when trading bangers and mash for sauerkraut, pierogi and kluski.

/snicker

europe as one single ethnic group
mindblowing

sounds like some wacked out racist screed you find in s-tormfront
wake up white people!

 

[Repo Man]

Gustav, have you ever considered starting your own forum? With very few exceptions, all I ever see you contribute to this one is your dissatisfaction with how it is run.

 

[Gustav]

quad
so the overall impression that this .....

...i say! wtf!! i hope that off world gulag is sans ovens

gives is..

and insist that we read it literally.

...that??

 

[quadraphonics]

europe as one single ethnic group

Not what I said.

Not that such is any impediment to you.

sounds like some wacked out racist screed you find in s-tormfront
wake up white people!

Except for the part where there's no advocacy of white supremacism or anything like that. But I guess it's somehow racist to aknowledge that ethnicity exists and observe its operation.

 

[Gustav]

So you've dreamed up the most hysterical, prejudicial interpretation possible, and want Fraggle to be accountable to it. Not impressed and, indeed, you don't appear to be getting any traction to speak of with this line.

that would be only if you interpret....

i suggest that sciforums not host the seeds to such inhumane depravity.

...that cautionary note on fraggle's screeds on religion in a hysterical and prejudicial manner (i wonder who the teacher and student is )

Not impressed and, indeed, you don't appear to be getting any traction to speak of with this line.

a secondary and rather inconsequential side issue at best. the only reason you focus on that is because you have room to maneuver. an easy troll that you rabidly run with

Not what I said.

sure it is
you subsumed actual ethnicities into a fictitious one. that is a common polemic propagated by racists in order to engender unity in the coming war with the mud people

/snicker

But I guess it's somehow racist to aknowledge that ethnicity exists and observe its operation.

bullshit
you did no such thing. you denied it

Notice how you're writing your posts in a European language? And probably wear clothes, listen to music, read books, and eat food all dervied primarily from European cultural traditions?

gee quad
i am a 3rd gen chinese and i do all that. how racist is it to imply that all that is reserved for your kith and kin.

And are, probably, immediately differentiable, by sight alone, from people who hale from Africa, East Asia, etc.? That's "ethnic identity."

heh
nordic/slav/mediterranean not sufficiently distinguishable?
furthermore, if "probably", then not "immediately"
your clauses conflict

 

[wynn]

Fraggle didn't suggest a "methodology." He simply described his ideal end-state: an absence of (fundie, Abrahamic) religion. He said nothing at all about how such should, or could, be accomplished.

So you just admitted that Fraggle is yet another flatulent politician, just like yourself ...
Yes, very effective!

 

[The Esotericist]

Eh, I'm an American, I know Fraggle is too. Though I don't always agree with him, and I certainly DO NOT agree with him here, I have to defend him, because we are culturally akin.

I have, since I have joined these forums, found 95% of the moderation here pretty silly, especially for an "enlightened" forum. This is supposed to be a forum for educated people to discuss free thoughts?!? How can we speak our minds freely if we can't be ourselves and speak our minds. I know, I know, it isn't America here. w/e. Foolishness. If I were in charge, I would get rid of all moderation. Thought control, nothing more. Grow some skin people.

And to the other. . . learn to be ladies and gentlemen. What happened to the by gone era when people were CIVIL? :bugeye:

It speaks volumes that you won't, no matter how much she disagrees with the multitudes who attack her, find SAM personally attacking people. What does that say about the stand and the arguments that people take against her? If they can't riddle her with reason. . . then I guess they have to baffle her with bullshit.

To Fraggle issue . . .
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
~Voltaire

 

[S.A.M.]

The first lesson I learned at sciforums is that attacking ideas is not attacking the people who hold them. The second lesson, that if people do not like your ideas, they attack you. The second lesson was learned by putting the first one to practice

 

[phlogistician]

“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
~Voltaire

Except it wasn't Voltaire that said that. It's a distillation of his point of view, but not an actual quote.

Anyway, to the matter at hand. Fraggle called SAM an asshole, which given his moderator status, wasn't perhaps the most politic thing to do, but I understand how he was driven to it. I have SAM on ignore, so I don't have such reactions to her intellectual dishonesty. Fraggle doesn't have that luxury.

But anyway, this site is somewhat over moderated, and there's nothing wrong with the odd insult every now and again. We do not need to punish every instance.

 

[chimpkin]

And probably wear clothes, listen to music, read books, and eat food all dervied primarily from European cultural traditions?

Since I went vegan? eh, not that much on the food.
A world with no Vietnamese food is a sad place.
True on the clothes, as it's cheapest.
To dress like an Indian person, or an African person, or a Chinese person, I'd have to drive to the other side of town where their shops are, and spend more money.

But the entirety of Europe as a homogenous culture?
They were all trying to kill each other the first almost-half of this century and much of the one before that.
People on my mom's side of the family still refer to the Italian-ancestry people who live around them as something I'm not going to repeat. But they are all whites of European ancestry...

 

[Stoniphi]

...just a free-floating individual with no connection to anyone..

Yes, and I learned long ago not to take anyone at their word as to who and what exactly they really are. It may come as a shock to some, but there are those among us that are "posers". The boys who claim to be girls, the high school drop outs that claim to possess advanced degrees, the 15 year olds who claim to be adult professionals and the like....

I have on several occasions mentioned what I refer to as "logical inconsistencies" in the great body of posting by certain individuals. A logical inconsistency is when 2 statements by 1 individual contradict each other.

An example would be a person who claims to be 72 years old on 1 thread mentioning that their father has lots of black hair all over his back on another thread. Those 2 statements tend to contradict each other. Another example would be the person who claims to be a highly - trained professional in a high - demand field....and spends 23 out of every 24 hours posting here. :shrug: Not that there is anything wrong with that......

For practical purposes, I start out assuming that whoever it is that I am reading at the moment is that naked fat man seated before a computer that we have all seen pix of. (Gustav has it on hand, I am sure)

A certain amount of this discussion appears to be powered by that old 1920's surrealist dictum to "fire pistols randomly into crowds" so as to inspire "a permanent revelation" through "shock and awe".

I perceive it as creative....but not actually serious in the big picture, sorry.

 

[chimpkin]

Esotericist:
Though I don't always agree with him, and I certainly DO NOT agree with him here, I have to defend him, because we are culturally akin.

Why on earth are you required to do that???
You'd stick up for someone if that person was acting like an ass, merely because that person is part of your culture and their opponent isn't?
That's really...really..weird.

Stoniphi:
Yes, and I learned long ago not to take anyone at their word as to who and what exactly they really are. It may come as a shock to some, but there are those among us that are "posers".

Yes, I figured out I was transgender by pretending to be a guy while posting on FARK.
That place is a total sausage-fest anyway....
But I felt embarrassed about lying.

 

[Stoniphi]

If you are an honest person who always tells the truth - if you choose to answer the question - then you do not have to have crap for a memory as you just answer honestly every time and it pretty much comes out the same way.

The liar must remember the lie they told to protect the lie they told to protect the lie they told to protect the lie they told. That is a lot of work to do just to "pose" for the audience.

 

[S.A.M.]

Erm...
SAM wouldn't consider Indonesian Muslims to be her people I don't think.
Nor would SAM consider Saudi Arabians to be her people. Not the same ethnic group, culture, branch of Islam...

You're using the wrong criteria for defining people

My people are not a nationality or a religion, they are a type. Like this and this

 

[Pineal]

if this honest deconstruction and analysis of their religions/beliefs is unwanted or offends them, then it's utterly illogical to discuss it on a science/critical thinking forum.

But he was writing about her as a person, not her beliefs in Gustav's quotes. This is against forum rules.

 

[leopold]

Eh, I'm an American, I know Fraggle is too. Though I don't always agree with him, and I certainly DO NOT agree with him here, I have to defend him, because we are culturally akin.

bullshit.
the ONLY defense frag deserves is in relation to the mod team, nothing more.

 

[Pineal]

What I said was that I don't see where Fraggle's called for any actual believers to be killed.

They're all bullshit, they all want to return us to the happy days before the Industrial Revolution, and the sooner we're rid of them all, the better.

He may not have meant kill them, but it is a very poor wording if he meant, transform them through rational dialogue into atheists.

 

[Pineal]

Except no implied genocide of religious pratitioners was made.

Then you are assuming he meant that religious organizations want things. That would be fairly irrational.

They're all bullshit, they all want to return us to the happy days before the Industrial Revolution, and the sooner we're rid of them all, the better.

I mean, it is hard to tell. The assertion they all want to return us...
is clearly not true in relation to either institutions or the religious as a whole. I don't see much institutional luddite leanings and religious people seem to accept technology in general.

So this makes it more confusing.

 

[Pineal]

Nope Gustav, in the same token as Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, if you are going to accuse someone of genocide then you need to produce something much more compelling than that quote.

No one is accusing Fraggle of genocide, but of a genocidal sentiment. That someone here might have a generalized hatred of religious people is not an extraoridinary claim. That they actually carried out a genocide, that is an extraoridinary claim.