Four horsemen of the apocalypse

DaveC426913 said:
Something I've never understood is that the Four do not seem to be equals. War, Famine and Pestilence all lead to Death.
Why is Death on the list then? He's da boss.

It's like saying 'the four things you need to concentrate on are Writing, Reading, Arithmetic ... and Education'.
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It's pretty much about stuff we don't like or look forward to ... Death being one of. What does apocalypse mean as defined? The revelation of John concerning apocalypse. The apocalypse of Peter is another book, although not included in the canon. The horsemen are typically viewed in a negative light, yet they are part of life, part of the yin and yang.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Something I've never understood is that the Four do not seem to be equals. War, Famine and Pestilence all lead to Death.
Why is Death on the list then? He's da boss.

It's like saying 'the four things you need to concentrate on are Writing, Reading, Arithmetic ... and Education'.
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Minus the religious connotations it's defined as something disastrous, which would be an appropriate definition of the term as I understand it .... Biblically and/or otherwise.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
It's pretty much about stuff we don't like or look forward to ... Death being one of.
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No, they're all just different paths to Death. War is bad because it leads to death. Famine is bad because of the death. Pestilence is death.

Analogous to my Education example. One subsumes all the others.


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DaveC426913 said:
No, they're all just different paths to Death. War is bad because it leads to death. Famine is bad because of the death. Pestilence is death.

Analogous to my Education example. One subsumes all the others.


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I stated this already and I think at least twice in this thread alone. Death is our last battle as living entities. The others are precursors leading to, but then so is birth and happiness and joy and laughter. The bad ones are thought to be more disastrous or calamitous than the better and more pleasant precursors I just listed.
 
Why is death on the list? I guess the apocalypse reference wasn't enough or that the others are all disastrous types of things in life that lead to our last disaster (death). If death is the boss, where does life stand? To me they're the same damn thing. I think the new testament made reference to this per the seed teaching and being being required to die before being given life again. It's similar to conception I would presume. It's not all bad .... To be certain, but the bad comes with the good... apocalyptically. Life comes with death and death comes with life. That's life.
 
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ThazzarBaal said:
Survival of the fittest and adaptation would seem to be motivated by the four horsemen. I keep hearing it's a dog eat dog world and I guess it is at times. In any case, I also hear that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. It must be the Darwinian influence I've learned over the years. It's a largely accepted theoretical science with a long long history and backing.
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My bold.
"motivated"

IMO.
No effort by the organism is needed. Without mutations there would be no 'permanent adaption' to any changing environment.
Mutation maybe equal to death in the process of continuing life in a changing environment.
The body or person doesn’t "choose" what mutations will happen in its germline cells.
Mutation is the engine of evolution. If by chance a germline mutation is beneficial for an organism’s survival in an environment, it will be passed on to its offspring.
A mutation is a change in the DNA sequence of an organism. Mutations can result from errors in DNA replication during cell division, exposure to mutagens or a viral infection. Germline mutations (that occur in eggs and sperm) can be passed on to offspring, while somatic mutations (that occur in body cells) are not passed on.
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https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Mutation
Did the blble say anything about the Earth environment changing?
 
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ThazzarBaal said:
Why is death on the list?
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Specifically, why is Death on a list with things that it subsumes? The list makes no sense.

Look at these examples and recognize why they make no sense:

  • 'The Four Lambs' of Christian spirituality are: the father, the son, the holy ghost ... and the trinity.
  • 'The Four Owls' of Wisdom are: writing, reading, arithmetic ... and education.
  • 'The Four Elephants' of Blood Relations are: siblings, children, parents ... and immediate family.
 
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foghorn said:
My bold.
"motivated"

IMO.
No effort by the organism is needed. Without mutations there would be no 'permanent adaption' to any changing environment.
Mutation maybe equal to death in the process of continuing life in a changing environment.
The body or person doesn’t "choose" what mutations will happen in its germline cells.
Mutation is the engine of evolution. If by chance a germline mutation is beneficial for an organism’s survival in an environment, it will be passed on to its offspring.


https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/Mutation
Did the blble say anything about the Earth environment changing?
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Genetics are part of the process, but I wouldn't be nearly as quick as you do dismiss our daily environmental motivators as they pertain to adaptation and our evolutionary processes.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Specifically, why is Death on a list with things that it subsumes? The list makes no sense.

Look at these examples and recognize why they make no sense:

  • 'The Four Lambs' of Christian spirituality are: the father, the son, the holy ghost ... and the trinity.
  • 'The Four Owls' of Wisdom are: writing, reading, arithmetic ... and education.
  • 'The Four Elephants' of Blood Relations are: siblings, children, parents ... and immediate family.
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So I suppose the larger circle is that of life then? If you utilized your method of understanding the family unit, I'd suggest that life and death go hand in hand as the first and last, the furthest poles between all the variables .... The yin and yang aspects of life, some things belonging to the yin and others to the yang, which I will (again) suggest are based on the same concept, undesirables such as disaster or hardship and the more desirables such as joy and laughter.
 
The ouroboros would symbolize this phenomena and infinite circle we call life. The vilified serpent in the garden and that which comes with such a great price ... Awareness and life ... A conscious conscience and creation, struggle and death but with no less joy and laughter, development, and yes wisdom and/or understanding.
 
ThazzarBaal said:
So I suppose the larger circle is that of life then? If you utilized your method of understanding the family unit, I'd suggest that life and death go hand in hand as the first and last, the furthest poles between all the variables .... The yin and yang aspects of life, some things belonging to the yin and others to the yang, which I will (again) suggest are based on the same concept, undesirables such as disaster or hardship and the more desirables such as joy and laughter.
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I have no idea what any of this has to do with the Four Horsemen.
ThazzarBaal said:
The ouroboros would symbolize this phenomena and infinite circle we call life. The vilified serpent in the garden and that which comes with such a great price ... Awareness and life ... A conscious conscience and creation, struggle and death but with no less joy and laughter, development, and yes wisdom and/or understanding.
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Or this.

But that's OK, no need to elaborate on my behalf. It's just different flavours of woo for me.
 
DaveC426913 said:
I have no idea what any of this has to do with the Four Horsemen.

Or this.

But that's OK, no need to elaborate on my behalf. It's just different flavours of woo for me.
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It's a bible reference and an acknowledgment of them always being present as opposed to them just a future event. They were the subject of my opening post, the reason for this discussion, and the motivation for your involvement. Beyond this, and what has thus been discussed I have no idea, but then I have no idea why you would feel the need to question this at all ... Concerning the four horsemen and your unacknowledged reason for posting in this thread, given the title and original opening post.

Are they documented anywhere beyond what is written in the bible? If so, fill me in I'd love to read about it. If not, this all remains a bible based religious inquiry and thread.
 
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ThazzarBaal said:
Genetics are part of the process, but I wouldn't be nearly as quick as you do dismiss our daily environmental motivators as they pertain to adaptation and our evolutionary processes.
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I'm not catching your point?
Can you give an example of evolution happening without a random beneficial mutation being passed on to offspring?

If you mean chemicals or radiation / radioactive sources in the environment causing mutations in germline cells, then the resultant mutations are not ‘chosen’ but are passed on to offspring good or bad.
 
foghorn said:
I'm not catching your point?
Can you give an example of evolution happening without a random beneficial mutation being passed on to offspring?

If you mean chemicals or radiation / radioactive sources in the environment causing mutations in germline cells, then the resultant mutations are not ‘chosen’ but are passed on to offspring good or bad.
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No, but part of that process is developed through life and struggle and learning to adapt to our environments while living.
 
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