Forums Reorganization

[Cris]

Dave,

You were considering reorganizing some of the forums a short while ago. I’d like to make two recommendations based on the actual usage since the new site design.

I think it would make sense to merge my two forums into a single forum, and I propose the following title - AI, Robotics, and the Fusion of Man and Machine.

In the religious debates there is not really a clear usage split between the three categories. I think it would be wise to revert to the old model of a single ‘Religious Debate forum’, I recommend you merge the three forums. And place the forum under the ‘Debate’ category.

Cris

 

[Tiassa]

I have no thoughts on the proposal

But I did want to comment, since it's partway relevant:

In the religious debates there is not really a clear usage split between the three categories. I think it would be wise to revert to the old model of a single ‘Religious Debate forum’, I recommend you merge the three forums. And place the forum under the ‘Debate’ category.

I've always wondered about the lack of diversity we do experience; surely there are Jews, Muslims, and others with computers. We've a few Wiccans on the roster, and various less-than-specific permutations of theisms (yeah, I know) .... But it does seem that most of what is debated in the religious sense derives primarily from the Western heritage. This could be in part due to the less evangelical nature of some religions, but that doesn't explain it all.

For instance, the lack of clarity 'twixt the Atheism and Christianity forums: atheists, having no set canon, don't necessarily have much to reaffirm in that sense. Furthermore, as atheism seems most aggressive only when pressed by a religion, I don't see a whole lot of formalized effort to develop a canon to reject individual religions. But the primary dualism of Christian versus Atheism is the result of the same polarization in society: we pagans can be saved, but those darn atheists say there is no God, or something along those lines. I don't see how ruling that one cannot force an atheist child to pray in a school is persecutory to any religion, unless it considers endorsed evangelism among its rights. So the issues that press atheists seem to largely come from Christianity, which causes the two Forums to muddle somewhat. Really, it would be quite interesting if a Muslim stepped into the Atheist forum; it would require a slight revision of factual approach. Sufi mysticism by someone far more knowledgeable than I would be an interesting refutation to watch, as the sense of "fact" refuted becomes ever more vague until the only argument left is over is whether or not God exists and, frankly, to the Sufi, it doesn't matter: his perspective would be that God made you as you are and he's not bright enough to know God's motives, so that's that.

I'll stop now. But, yes, a little bit of cultural diversity would help. How to achieve that, I haven't a clue. It's not like there's anything exclusionary about the site except the fact that fairly mainline Western heritage seems to be the demographic result. Perhaps a Muslim or Hindu coming into the board might think that's all we care to argue; but that's that person's assumption and no fault of Dave's. (Really, Dave, there's nothing I'm implying to be wrong with the site, I swear! That we're most familiar with Western cultures is purely coincidental ...) Of course, that might go to support the proposal re: Religious Debate. So, since I promised to have no thoughts on that, I suppose I should hush now.

thanx much,
Tiassa

 

[Porfiry]

I am not sure what the original rationale was for the Atheism forum. I suppose I was orginally hoping there would be more confrontation in the Atheism forum, whereas the more zealous Christians would stay in the Christianity forum. I suppose I should have forced this by actively moving topics. I also could have communicated this intention to our now non-existent moderator.

I do agree that the Atheism forum probably should be folded back in with the others. But I do think the Alternative forum is still valuable, for reasons of diversity that tiassa mentions. However, perhaps the forums should be renamed?



As for the AI forums, I am still planning to coalesce them sometime soon. "AI, Robotics, and the Fusion of Man and Machine" is rather verbose -- perhaps it is better as the description. I was thinking of something more general like "Science of the Artificial" -- but perhaps that's too general.

 

[Chagur]

A suggestion?

Dave,

Re. the AI forum: how about 'Hardware, Software, &Wetware'?

It would pretty much cover the field

 

[Cris]

Tiassa, Dave,

Hmmm, well, the site is open to the world, but what attracts people to the site? It is a science site primarily and that in itself might discourage religionists, or at least those that want to purely debate religion. I would love to see some debate on Hinduism and Islam with those that practice those faiths, but perhaps there is another problem – language. We do have members here who do not have English as their first language and they have struggled to some extent with their posts. I suspect many others, especially Hindu or Islam based, would find it too much trouble.

There are religious debating sites available that I have visited but, wow, the volume of traffic is generally very heavy. With sciforums we can see a debate between two members last for days with few if any interruptions from others. That doesn’t happen on the busier sites – such sub-thread discussions are simply swamped.

Dave, I don’t know if you advertise this site elsewhere, do you? One method that I would think would attract more members of a wider interest would be to place a link to this site on web sites that they would access. That of course means requesting various web masters to cooperate with both their agreement and actually posting the link.

Perhaps if anyone reading this has some ideas of other sites that would post our link then perhaps they could add their comments here.

And tiassa, yes atheism being essentially negative does have a problem taking a position unless attacked. I started most of the threads there, but, boy, I’m struggling to devise new thread ideas that would attract some discussion knowing that there aren’t too many actual atheists here. So I really end up taking a position against Christianity knowing that is likely to generate discussion, in which case I might as well post in the Christian forum, and thus making the atheist forum redundant.

Cris

 

[Cris]

Some more suggestions

Dave,

I suppose I should have forced this by actively moving topics. I also could have communicated this intention to our now non-existent moderator.

Maybe, but I don’t think it would have made too much difference, so don’t blame yourself. As for oxygen: I certainly haven’t seen her post for a long time –it would be nice to have a more pro-active moderator – perhaps there should be a set period of tenure followed by a vote for moderators.

I do agree that the Atheism forum probably should be folded back in with the others. But I do think the Alternative forum is still valuable, for reasons of diversity that tiassa mentions. However, perhaps the forums should be renamed?

Yes I agree. As a suggestion then –

How about a wider scope that is more appropriate to a science site – change the “Religious Debate” category to “Philosophy” (love of wisdom), this would be consistent with the other categories, e.g. “Science” (love of knowledge). And then under this new category have these forums –

Religion
Other Disciplines

This latter category would then cover other areas and ideas like; humanism, skepticism, Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Determinism, Kant, atheism, etc., etc., you get the idea I’m sure. Religion would cover all religions and then if later we find an infusion of new members with beliefs other than Christianity then we can split at that time.

As for the AI forums, I am still planning to coalesce them sometime soon. "AI, Robotics, and the Fusion of Man and Machine" is rather verbose -- perhaps it is better as the description. I was thinking of something more general like "Science of the Artificial" -- but perhaps that's too general.

Ha ha, yes and even my suggestion was cut down. I couldn’t find an appropriate ‘science’ like name that fitted well – cybernetics came to mind, but that was too restrictive. I would object to stressing ‘artificial’ any further since intelligence can’t be artificial, but it can be non-human.

How about simply “Intelligent Machines”? That covers, AI, Robotics, even mind-uploading at a small stretch, and all forms of ‘artificial’ (read synthetic or non-human) life.

It might be a good idea to be able to include a short (several line) description somewhere obvious of the intended content of each and every forum. This will guide future posters and provide some ideas for topics.

And I think we need a more formal “Computing” forum - gosh how about "Computer Science".

Have fun
Cris

 

[dexter]

oxygen has not been replaying to my e-mails... i do not know where SHE is. i will try to contact HER again. dave, i like how you have this set up. i like the layout. though i would make religion one forum again.

 

[Cris]

dexter, Thanks I'd forgotten (him/her).

 

[Porfiry]

Cris,

I do like your idea of consolidating religious debate under the umbrella a more general Philosophy section. I also agree that 2 subforums of Philosophy (call them "General Philosophy" and "Religion") seems about right. I suspect the entire contents of "Ethics, Morality, & Justice" should be moved into "General Philosophy".

How about simply ÒIntelligent MachinesÓ? That covers, AI, Robotics, even mind-uploading at a small stretch, and all forms of ÔartificialÕ (read synthetic or non-human) life.

"Intelligent Machines" or "Machine Intelligence" would certainly work. But don't these conjure up the same thoughts of artificiality as my suggestion? "Artificial" refers not to just the effects produced directly by humans, but rather all effects and phenomena that have arisen as a consequence of human existence.

That said, I do prefer "Machine Intelligence" over my suggestion as it's a bit more direct and obvious.

As a side note, people who work (at least academics) in AI really dislike the term. They do seem to prefer "simulated" / "synthetic" / "computational" / or "machine" intelligence.

And I think we need a more formal ÒComputingÓ forum - gosh how about "Computer Science".

Given that this is my field, I'd definitely be interested in trying this out. Is anyone willing to second this proposal? (I might just go ahead and add it anyways).

 

[Cris]

Dave,

OK sounds good.

In addition –

1. Move ‘World Affairs & Politics’ to the Life category
2. Move ‘Ethics, Morality, & Justice’ as a forum to the Philosophy category.
3. You can then remove the ‘Debate’ category.

Ethics, morality, etc are important issues so I wouldn’t move them into General Philosophy.

I could live with ‘Intelligent Machines’, although it isn’t quite right. A good description would solve that though, but how about a subtle change to - ‘Intelligence and Machines’? With a description that reads – ‘AI, Robotics, Computational Neuroscience, Brain Emulation, Cognition Systems’.

Cris

 

[wet1]

Changes

To put my 2¢ in (or is it 25¢ now with inflation?) I like the idea of Computer Science. I say go for it. We will all be able to deal with it. Whatever the change, once it is done, is it what you have. Hey, I'm easy.