Forum rules update

[James R]

So it is ok to show a pm to someone as long as he's a moderator and the pm is insulting.

You can show any PM to anybody you like. You can't post it on one of the public forums without the author's permission. Of course, it might be very rude to show somebody's private PM to another party without their knowledge or permission, but that's a matter of upbringing, good manners, that kind of thing.

Is this really so hard to understand?

Thats OK admins can read other peoples PMs if they want. I'm sure most do.

I can't speak for "most" admins. As an admin here, I can tell you that I have no power to read people's PMs. Only the site owners can do that, and I'm sure they would only do it if there was a good reason to do it.

 

[Varda]

Yes this is very difficult to understand. You need to dumb it down some more for us retards on the board. Let's discuss the rules to exaustion as they are extremely important to a good posting experience .
What if I share a pm with someone, and this someone had terrible upbringing and posts it in a public area. What are the implications for me and for this bastard?

 

[Mr MacGillivray]

What are the implications for me and for this bastard?

What if the content is on how you hate the moderators. Surely the moderators aren't going to punish the person who published that PM.

 

[James R]

Varda:

Yes this is very difficult to understand. You need to dumb it down some more for us retards on the board. Let's discuss the rules to exaustion as they are extremely important to a good posting experience .

Interesting that you post this and then go on to ask another question.

This thread is for people who want to discuss or comment on the rules update. If that doesn't interest you, nobody is forcing you to read the thread or to contribute to it. I'm well aware that many posters have little to no interest in the rules. They make the reasonable assumption that if you don't behave like a dick (as somebody else put it), you'll be fine as far as moderation is concerned, which usually turns out to be right.

What if I share a pm with someone, and this someone had terrible upbringing and posts it in a public area. What are the implications for me and for this bastard?

No implications for you. A warning for the bastard if it is a first offence, or a ban if there's some kind of history and active infraction points. Isn't this clear enough from the rules?


MacGillivray:

What if the content is on how you hate the moderators. Surely the moderators aren't going to punish the person who published that PM.

We have threads on how people hate the moderators. That particular topic has no particular connection to the publishing of private messages without consent.

 

[OnlyMe]

I can't speak for "most" admins. As an admin here, I can tell you that I have no power to read people's PMs. Only the site owners can do that, and I'm sure they would only do it if there was a good reason to do it.

I cannot back this up with any evidence, but this sounds almost as if a PM here is more secure than most e-mail. At least internally.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I cannot back this up with any evidence, but this sounds almost as if a PM here is more secure than most e-mail. At least internally.

It's only as secure as the person you send it to can be trusted not to make it public. How much trust are you going to have if that PM is derogatory and has a lot of profane name calling in it?

 

[OnlyMe]

It's only as secure as the person you send it to can be trusted not to make it public. How much trust are you going to have if that PM is derogatory and has a lot of profane name calling in it?

That's the case in any form of communication. I was really commenting on the mechanism that is implied. Some public e-mail servers seem far less secure than Jame's implied a PM is.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

That's the case in any form of communication. I was really commenting on the mechanism that is implied. Some public e-mail servers seem far less secure than Jame's implied a PM is.

I think a court order gets access to all of it, so if you are a friend of a friend that got murdered all of your emails for your entire life might end up in an evidence box and used against you after you have sworn to tell the truth. And when they find out you are a forum member, same deal.

 

[OnlyMe]

I think a court order gets access to all of it, so if you are a friend of a friend that got murdered all of your emails for your entire life might end up in an evidence box and used against you after you have sworn to tell the truth. And when they find out you are a forum member, same deal.

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

This is getting way off topic, but sometimes a little humor can lighten the mood of things.

 

[wynn]

Sciforums site rules, posting guidelines and advice to members have been updated today.

Members are advised to familiarise themselves with the updated rules. These are posted as an Announcement at the top of all subforums.

Questions, comments and suggestions are welcome.

I'd like to bring up one issue for discussion:
Members talking about their own future/possible suicide attempts, suicide ideation and such.

I think there should be a limit on this.

It is unnecessary negativity for the forum that there are posts to the effect of "I'm again thinking about offing myself."

Suicide is a serious matter and should not be talked about so casually.

There are forum rules on
Personal attacks, threats and stalking
Hate speech and stereotyping
Defamation
- and these should apply to the person themselves as well, at least to some extent.

If it is against the forum rules to personally attack other posters, threaten them, speak about them hatefully and defame them,
then it should also be against the forum rules to do that to oneself.

A forum poster is a forum poster.

 

[James R]

Suicide is a tricky topic that comes up every now and then. I don't think we should rule the whole topic out as off-limits. On the other hand, we don't want to encourage people to start threads threatening their own suicide, either.

Other opinions?

 

[Varda]

Varda:

Interesting that you post this and then go on to ask another question.

This thread is for people who want to discuss or comment on the rules update. If that doesn't interest you, nobody is forcing you to read the thread or to contribute to it. I'm well aware that many posters have little to no interest in the rules. They make the reasonable assumption that if you don't behave like a dick (as somebody else put it), you'll be fine as far as moderation is concerned, which usually turns out to be right.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I want you too look uder every rock.
If I may end up banned because of your interpretqtion of a rule" I'd rather know what it is before it hahappens

No implications for you. A warning for the bastard if it is a first offence, or a ban if there's some kind of history and active infraction points. Isn't this clear enough from the rules?

No. Nothing in the rules is clear enough if you're going to be bending it to suit your fancy.
Now, let's get on with some more specifics.

What if the content of my pm is criminal?
What if I, under expectation of privacy, pm someone a picture of me torturing bunnies?

 

[KilljoyKlown]

Suicide is a tricky topic that comes up every now and then. I don't think we should rule the whole topic out as off-limits. On the other hand, we don't want to encourage people to start threads threatening their own suicide, either.

Other opinions?

I agree, so what do you suggest be done when it happens? I don't want to be cold about it. But the last time it happened it almost felt like a troll that everybody got suckered into because they didn't want to be seen as calling it what it was on the chance that it was true. It's my belief when people want to talk about it, they rarely do it.

If it were my choice to make the policy I'd make any talk of suicide in the personal sense a 30 day suspension, and permanently if it happened a second time. We don't need to be enabling that kind of behavior.

 

[James R]

Varda,

Now, let's get on with some more specifics.

What if the content of my pm is criminal?
What if I, under expectation of privacy, pm someone a picture of me torturing bunnies?

This criminal or bunny-boiling PM is somehow brought to the attention of a moderator, I assume. Either the recipient reports the PM, or else forwards it to a moderator or something like that.

So, let's say I receive a forwarded PM in which you say you're about to import a shipment of Crystal Meth. I'd be inclined to investigate that matter to some extent, and would seriously consider providing your ISP details to relevant law enforcement authorities. The same kind of thing may apply to the bunny torture, too.

Verification is always a potentially thorny issue. If in doubt, though, then as an Administrator I may be put in a position where I either report you or ignore the potential maltreatment of who knows how many animals. Also, since I know that torturing animals is often a precursor to the commission of violent crimes against human beings, it may be best to nip this kind of thing in the bud.

----

I'm, interested, though. What would you do as a forum moderator in that kind of situation?

 

[chimpkin]

It's my belief when people want to talk about it, they rarely do it.

If they directly say they are going to this is because they are conflicted and want someone to talk them out of it. Means that they are on the fence, putting them on a ban might be just enough to push them over.
There's at least two people here I know of who are probably still alive because they came on here and announced they were really going to,this time, seriously.
When I was at Ye Olde Mental Health Forum it was a really slow week when at least two threads like this didnt get started.
Especially if someone's attempted before, but in general? Um, someone announces as opposed to ideating that they'd like to...they do mean it.

Edited: that's my experience.
If it does become an attention-seeking behavior?
I would suggest dealing with it then...

Edited some more...I lifted this from another poster in one of those threads.

What SandDune said:

Angels are spiritual beings... they use our arms to do the holding and comforting.

If you pass beyond our reach, neither we nor the angels can help you.

We are all alone in the hard shells of our skulls, and it hurts. Oh it hurts.

The Angels reach out spiritually and empower mere mortals to bless others.

So too must we reach out of OUR skulls and lift OUR arms to touch other humans.

Again.

And again.

And again.

No matter how many times we fail, how many times we are rejected, we must again again and again reach OUT of our lonely skulls.

We must lift our arms, open our eyes and ears and mouths and touch, see, talk and listen to other people.

(but our arms are bruised from rejection and we block our ears to keep out the hurt and we cast down our eyes so not to see the hate and pity.)

Keep on.

Your arms are those of someone else's Angel.

 

[wynn]

Suicide is a tricky topic that comes up every now and then. I don't think we should rule the whole topic out as off-limits. On the other hand, we don't want to encourage people to start threads threatening their own suicide, either.

Other opinions?

I wasn't suggesting that the whole topic of suicide be ruled out.

I am thinking about a rule similar to Godwin's Law: when someone starts talking about their own possible suicide, the discussion be closed and/or the post be deleted.

 

[wynn]

If they directly say they are going to this is because they are conflicted and want someone to talk them out of it. Means that they are on the fence, putting them on a ban might be just enough to push them over.
There's at least two people here I know of who are probably still alive because they came on here and announced they were really going to,this time, seriously.
When I was at Ye Olde Mental Health Forum it was a really slow week when at least two threads like this didnt get started.
Especially if someone's attempted before, but in general? Um, someone announces as opposed to ideating that they'd like to...they do mean it.

Edited: that's my experience.
If it does become an attention-seeking behavior?
I would suggest dealing with it then...

As far as I know US laws, it is illegal to take it upon oneself to try to talk someone out of suicide. Instead, if someone threatens with suicide, one is supposed to inform the authorities; otherwise, one may become an accessory to a crime.


Edit:

Found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation

Historically, various states listed the act of suicide as a felony, but these policies were sparsely enforced. In the late 1960s, eighteen U.S. states lacked laws against suicide.[10] By the late 1980s, thirty of the fifty states had no laws against suicide or suicide attempts but every state had laws declaring it to be felony to aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide.[11]

- and this is where the problem is.
If a person does attempt to or commits suicide and one was present, one might need to prove one did not "aid, advise or encourage another person to commit suicide."

In a forum like this, there may even be posters who would directly suggest that someone should commit suicide.
A suicidal person may also take otherwise well-meaning advice the opposite way.

Basically, we as posters here are not equipped to aid a suicidal person, and we might be making things worse even if we try to help. And by trying to help, we might even be doing something illegal.

So there should be some protocol for what to do in a case when a poster talks about their own suicide.

 

[wynn]

From some websites on suicide:

Get emergency help, if needed

If you believe someone is at risk of suicide (or has made a suicide attempt):

* Don't leave the person alone.
* Call 911 or your local emergency services provider right away. Or, if you think you can do so safely, take the person to the nearest hospital emergency room yourself.
* Try to find out if he or she is under the influence of alcohol or drugs or may have taken an overdose.
* Tell a family member or friend right away what's going on.

If a friend or family member talks or behaves in a way that makes you believe that he or she might commit suicide, don't try to handle the situation without help. The most important step you can take is to get help from a trained professional as quickly as possible. The person may need to be hospitalized until the suicidal crisis has passed.

/.../

Take all signs of suicidal behavior seriously

If someone you know says he or she is thinking of suicide or is behaving in a way that makes you think the person may be suicidal, don't play it down or ignore the situation. Certainly, not everyone who has thoughts of suicide or talks about suicide actually attempts it. But many people who commit suicide have expressed the intention at some point. You may worry that you're overreacting, but the safety of your friend or loved one is most important. Don't worry about straining your relationship when someone's life is at stake.

You're not responsible for preventing someone from taking his or her own life — but your intervention may help him or her see that other options are available to stay safe and get treatment.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/suicide/MH00058

What if Someone Needs Help Online?
If you see someone online who is suicidal, there are several steps you can take to help this person:

* Give him or her a helpful resource – Send 1-800-273-TALK (8255) and our website www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org. Tell him/her we are available 24/7 for anyone in suicidal crisis in the United States
* Take his/her words seriously and respond with compassion
* Encourage him/her to reach out for help to a friend, family member, counselor, clergy and other community members
* If the person online is saying he/she is going to kill him or herself at that moment or is in the process of attempting suicide, please try to find his/her location and call the local police or 911.

http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/WhatIfSomeoneIKnowNeedsHelp.aspx

A suicidal person should see a doctor or mental health professional immediately. Calling 911 or going to a hospital emergency room are also good options to prevent a tragic suicide attempt or death. Calling the National Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK is also a resource for you or the person you care about for help. Remember, always take thoughts of or plans for suicide seriously.

Never keep a plan for suicide a secret. Don’t worry about risking a friendship if you truly feel a life is in danger. You have bigger things to worry about-someone’s life might be in danger! It is better to lose a relationship from violating a confidence than it is to go to a funeral. And most of the time they will come back and thank you for saving their life.

http://www.save.org/index.cfm?page_id=705E1907-C4DD-5D32-2C7087CE5924CCA4

# Take it seriously.

Myth: The people who talk about it don't do it. Studies have found that more than 75% of all completed suicides did things in the few weeks or months prior to their deaths to indicate to others that they were in deep despair. Anyone expressing suicidal feelings needs immediate attention.

Myth: Anyone who tries to kill himself has got to be crazy. Perhaps 10% of all suicidal people are psychotic or have delusional beliefs about reality. Most suicidal people suffer from the recognized mental illness of depression; but many depressed people adequately manage their daily affairs. The absence of craziness does not mean the absence of suicide risk.

Those problems weren't enough to commit suicide over, is often said by people who knew a completed suicide. You cannot assume that because you feel something is not worth being suicidal about, that the person you are with feels the same way. It is not how bad the problem is, but how badly it's hurting the person who has it.

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/whattodo.htm

# Always take suicidal comments very seriously. When a person says that he or she is thinking about suicide, you must always take the comments seriously. Assuming that the person is only seeking attention is a very serious, and potentially disastrous, error. Get help immediately.

# Follow the information that is on the home page of Suicide.org. Feel free to view the home page of this site and to use it to help you. Dealing with a person who is suicidal is not easy, so following what is on the home page of Suicide.org can help you. And always remember that you need to call 911 or your local emergency number immediately for anyone who is at a high risk for suicide. Do not hesitate.

# Try not to act shocked. The person is already highly distressed, and if you are shocked by what is said, the person will become more distressed. Stay calm, and talk with him or her in a matter-of-fact manner, but get help immediately. If the person is at a high risk for suicide, call 911 immediately.

# Get help immediately. Call 911, 1-800-SUICIDE, or 1-800-273-TALK. This point cannot be overemphasized; a person who is suicidal needs immediate professional help.

# Do not handle the situation by yourself. A suicidal person needs immediate assistance from qualified mental health professionals. Again, call 911, 1-800-SUICIDE, or 1-800-273-TALK. And do not allow untrained individuals to act as the only couselors to the individual.

http://www.suicide.org/how-to-help-a-suicidal-person.html

 

[OnlyMe]

Suicide is a tricky topic that comes up every now and then. I don't think we should rule the whole topic out as off-limits. On the other hand, we don't want to encourage people to start threads threatening their own suicide, either.

Other opinions?

James, you are obviously finding a diverse set of opinions. I am glad I am not in a position that I have to make any decision on the subject.

Any claim that someone makes that he/she is contemplating suicide, represents a serious situation. I don't think that banning such statements could serve any constructive purpose. For some this may be their only or one of their only mechanisms of contact with others. For anyone who is genuinely considering suicide, cutting them off from contact with others, could as someone else has already mentioned, just reinforce their underlying psychological issues.

Banning any thread discussing suicide in general or anyone who promotes or encourages suicide, is probably a good idea.

How to deal with any individual who proclaims a suicidal intent, I have no real constructive recommendation. If the threat seems real enough, an administrator might have sufficient information that outside authorities could use to identify and locate the individual and provide some help. If so that might be something to consider and pursue.

I believe that anyone who is suicidal and openly claims be be thinking of suicide is likely asking for help and should be given the help they need, when possible. There is also a part of me that maintains that everyone should have the right to make a decision about life for theirselves. I cannot know what the world looks like to anyone other than myself, so there is no way for me to judge another's decision, except as it involves others or society as a whole. Essentially, people should have the right of self determination and when necessary be given what support they need, during times of personal crisis.

Again I am glad that I am not in a position that I need make any official decisions, involving this issue.

 

[Varda]

----

I'm, interested, though. What would you do as a forum moderator in that kind of situation?

I don't believe in moderation. Life is too short.