Formal Debate; The sad truth about the origins of the Christian belief system.

i thnk what we need to relly understand is that 'WE' create myth not the other way round. when it IS the other way round is when all the shit hits the fan

the essence of mythology-in its benevolent
aspect--when it isn't being used to plotically manipulate people and maintain a status quo--is about YOU. the living breathing person who is here now dynamically going through changes, as is all others, Naure including universe. THAt is alive
And there can be ever deepening experience
of this unfathomable life and death and regeneration. The prime source for insight into this mystery has always been and will always be hallucinogenic fruit

what happened with Christianity is that it decided to go 'orrrf-earth'....prohiibit even the MEMORY of pagan peoples ritualitic use off hallucinogenic inspiration, even demonizing all of their beliefs....and of course 'sublimating' them. But basically just leaving its followers, no matter what denomniation, with dry empty symbols....'promise'...'faith'....'hope' etc. And in the Church's history it has done some fukin evil too!....but its main insidious default-evil is its cutting its followers in two. a conflict between body and mind is proliferated. its only means of 'deliverance' is thin wafer of bread and sip of cheap wine. that's all folks

this is not just a dis-ease of the Christian myth however.......
 
nothing, for me and you, but for xians to be told the religion is founded on lies. now thats sad for them
 
Lets not discriminate here people. ALL modern religion was founded the same way that the Christian religion was.
 
I Am F_AQ2: Lets not discriminate here people. ALL modern religion was founded the same way that the Christian religion was.
*************
M*W: ... and, it's all lies! Only the strong will survive.
 
Seriously, why does this keep coming up?
Where's the bibliography? Where's the references? Where's the beef?

Mithra was not born of a virgin, he was born from a rock, or a cave, depending on your point of view, but no-where was said that he was born from a virgin. In all the depictions of his birth, there are only 2 men present, each being the polar opposite of the other; Cautes and Cautopates. There were no gifts. He had no disciples. He most certainly did not die. Since he didn't have disciples, and he didn't die, he didn't have a last supper. He killed the Bull, it pleased the sun god, who raised him up into heaven without dying, to have a feast with him. This event had nothing to do with saving us from evil. Since he did not die, he was not resurrected. He has no involvement with any trinity of any kind. The food that his followers partake of are not representative of his flesh.
This whole thing is just really bad case of the chinese telephone game. I swear it gets more and more embellished every time I hear it.
the preacher said:
do a little research and check it out for yourselves.
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There is nothing at all on that site that would aid any serious seeker in the act of research. Perhaps you should take you're own advice. The body of knowledge of Mithraic beliefs and and history can be found in the Journals Of Mithraic Studies. It's no longer published, but it is being made available electronically. A good start would be here:
http://www.uhu.es/ejms/

And if you're feeling adventurous, you might want to try find ing some of these:
http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/~rbeck/biblio.htm
Now, if you wanted to do research, that is the way to do it, not just taking somebody elses word for it right off the bat, especially if they don't have any supporting references.
 
HALCYON:However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.

this is taken from the bottom of the site the preacher recommends, it is but a starting point to research, and halcyon, please try explain away the above resurrections and virgin births all pre-date the bible, you belief's are founded on myths and lies wake up.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
HALCYON:However, it would be a vast oversimplification to suggest that Mithraism was the single forerunner of early Christianity. Aside from Christ and Mithras, there were plenty of other deities (such as Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus) said to have died and resurrected. Many classical heroic figures, such as Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, were said to have been born through the union of a virgin mother and divine father. Virtually every pagan religious practice and festivity that couldn't be suppressed or driven underground was eventually incorporated into the rites of Christianity as it spread across Europe and throughout the world.
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I've never made any such claims. The only point I've ever tried to make by correcting these misinformation artists was that Mithraism is not one of those influences. That's it. Anthropology is a particular interest of mine, and there was a point in my life when my studies centered around the cult of Mithras. That's why I take up the torch against such unfounded claims.

Anyway, this thread centralized around the theme that christianity was derived from mithraism, a completely unsupported claim. The prupose of my post was to correct this assumption and provide refrences to support my take.

fahrenheit 451 said:
this is taken from the bottom of the site the preacher recommends, it is but a starting point to research, and halcyon, please try explain away the above resurrections and virgin births all pre-date the bible,
Click to expand...

For some reason you've misinterpreted what I've said. Please tell me where anything I've written suggests that christianity is completely unique and not at all derived from any pagan practices. I've written before that many of christianity's celebrations are pagan in origin, and that's not just a personal opinion, it's historical fact.
fahrenheit 451 said:
you belief's are founded on myths and lies wake up.
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What beliefs are these? What information exactly have you used to determine what I believe in? I'd like to know, because if anything I ever posted has led anyone to believe I have other intentions than what I actually do, I'd like to correct it. I don't suppose that for some reason you think I'm a christian. Is that it? Because you're wrong. Eagerly awaiting your reply:
Halc
 
I am sorry halcyon,
I had misunderstood you meaning, and then made error after error, so please accept my apologies.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
I am sorry halcyon,
I had misunderstood you meaning, and then made error after error, so please accept my apologies.
Click to expand...
No worries, mate. ;)
 
LOL...no offense The Preacher, but that is EXACTLY why the dates where made that way. It is a FACT that Christ was NOT born on Dec 25. It was done to convert the "pegans" The Last supper was done that way because of Passover (when Loki comes and kills the firstborn. Jesus is the First born.) So by Tradition he had that supper. It was later used to convert the "pegans" Christ ressurected 3 days after passover, a bit more specific than "sunday".

3, 7, 12 are simbles are "unity" "perfection" "whole"
2, 6 and 11 are simbles of "seperation" "inperfection" and "without whole" that is why there was only 2 tribes for Juda when they split. That is why there are 12 tribes even though there were accually 13. Again for deciples there were accually 13 but only listed the 12. 666 refers to Mankind cause we "fall short of the glory of God" we have authority but not all authority.

Paul or Peter, i forget off memmory, use the "unknown god" to convert a very religous town. ( they had statues for EVERY god. They felt that they might leave one out so they made an idle for the unknown god. He used this to tell them about the One true God)

U do pose an interesting perspective on Christianity. Very well put together :)
However, its really the reverse. Christianity was formed by God to appear like the others to convert them...doesnt mean mine or your beliefs are right. But it just makes it easier for people to come to Christian side.

Note: The Christmas tree for example is a Celtic tradition. Nothing to do with Jesus.
 
The fact that Christmas is "orginaly" a celtic holiday.
Christ was born during late spring - early summer.
There was a pegan following town that created idols for every god. This is because they feared that if any god that they forgot would send his/her wrath. So they made an idol for the "unknown god". This was later used to preach to them about God.

There are more historical document, but my lack on information is not good. So its one of those things you'll have to do some homework on. If i run accross it again ill be sure to post it. Im familure with some religions but not all, and not all holidays too.
 
I'll ask for fahrenheit, camphlp, where are you getting your source material.as you are so clearly wrong the xmas tree was of germanic origin and revised by prince albert husband to queen victoria in the mid 19th century.
 
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YULE:Celebrating the rebirth of the Sun. Also known as the Winter Solstice. Actually, the mistletoe is
originally a Pagan tradition and not a Christian Christmas decoration. The tradition stems from the Druids, when the Chief Druid
cut the mistletoe from the sacred oak during the Winter Solstice festival. The word Yule is derived from an old Norse word Iul,
meaning wheel. Long ago, the symbol of a wheel was used to mark Yuletide with the idea that the year turns continuous with the
spokes marking the seasonal holidays and occasions. In celebration, the altar is adorned with evergreens such as pine,
rosemary, bay, juniper, and cedar. Decorations such as cinnamon sticks and quartz crystals (icicles), and fruits like apples,
oranges, and lemons are hung from boughs of the Yule tree.

Edit: The Yule tree...though it can be possible that they have a simular celebration. The Celtic Origins and German origins are believed to be from the same lands. This of course is just a theory, but logicly does make sense. Reviewing the Celtic Holiday i realized about mistletoe, didnt know it was celtic too...so i guess i have to thank you for it.

Though i might give you a friendly warning, asking for proof, you usually get it...and IF your trying to be right, trying to argue after evidence is pretty stupid and sometimes be humiliating
 
camphlps said:
Though i might give you a friendly warning, asking for proof, you usually get it...and IF your trying to be right, trying to argue after evidence is pretty stupid and sometimes be humiliating
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Ok, but we're still waiting for the evidence. Mis-t and Farenheit both asked for source/reference material, which you still haven't provided.
 
the preacher said:
The many flavours of Christians throughout the world disagree on many of the scriptural points made in the Bible. This has led to sectarianism and open animosity between the various Christian denominations and cults. This is all very amusing to Atheists. Christians of all flavours all profess to be True Christians, they all work from the same source material and they all profess to worship the same god. So you would think there would only be one brand of Christianity. But no there are thousands of different versions.
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A true Christian would encourage the unity of all people, be them Christians or not. A true Christian would be rational as well as emotional. A true Christian would valorize differences, rather then oppose them. A true Christian would not only tolerate other beliefs, but actually love people for who they are, no matter whether they are right or wrong. A true Christian would worship God by loving others, not the other way around. A true Christian would be simple, rather then confusing. A true Christian would not only speak but also listen. A true Christian would love in action, not in words.....

A true Christian would do everything in love.​




It's funny how everyone says essentially the same thing and think that they are saying things completely different from each other. It would be amusing if it wasn't sad.... :eek:
 
camphlps said:
The fact that Christmas is "orginaly" a celtic holiday.
Christ was born during late spring - early summer.
There was a pegan following town that created idols for every god. This is because they feared that if any god that they forgot would send his/her wrath. So they made an idol for the "unknown god". This was later used to preach to them about God.

There are more historical document, but my lack on information is not good. So its one of those things you'll have to do some homework on. If i run accross it again ill be sure to post it. Im familure with some religions but not all, and not all holidays too.
Click to expand...
The greeks too:

Acts 17:22-28
Sermon on Mars Hill

"22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "
 
camphlps said:
Paul or Peter, i forget off memmory, use the "unknown god" to convert a very religous town. ( they had statues for EVERY god. They felt that they might leave one out so they made an idle for the unknown god. He used this to tell them about the One true God)
Click to expand...
You are accurate in some things, but not with that. Read my post right above this one... ;)


Btw.... you should spell "symbols" rather then "simbles"... ;)
 
halcyon: evidence is no good if no one believes it is evidence. If i gave you reference you still wont believe. I see no point...

TruthSeeker: Its a perception on what I said. Same meaning...you posed nothing different. More like my "version" of the bible or something. :)

yeah im 19 but i spell like a 9 year old. What the hell?
 
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