For Taoists of sciforums: "Lessons" for Taoists...

"as i understand it the book was written for the lowest common denominator. maybe it is utopian and that's part of the reason i'm here, but i definately got something from it, at least enough that i wanted to find out more. "

You got into the wrong forum if you are searching for the lowest common denominator. While we have a lot of teenagers that are studying science, there are plenty super high IQed people here.

BTW: I read the book with rape and sex and violence scences (too many four letter words) that I could not stomach. As far as Multiverse theory....I do subscribe to a 5 dimensional universe where the 5th dimension is the size of one mm or less but attaches to other 4D universes like pages in the book. It is far out but people are working on it and we will soon know in about 15 years the mathematics behind it. So that is not far out.

I am still waiting for the cliff notes - the juicy parts....
 
discipline

i don't really agree with you regarding the four letter words. i don't remember a lot of sex and rape. imho the purpose of the book is to emulate reality using graphic language and scenes. i think it would be closer to fantasy if it wasn't so strong. my interpretation was that we have to suffer in order to build callouses. maybe i missed something. it seemed like the protaganist only succeeded when he stopped trying so hard and i liked that a lot. i also thought the explanations of time travel through multiverses was elegant, although as i said i'm unqualified to say too much about that.

as i said, i came at the book from an economic perspective and i found it a little problematic although i think it could be cleaned up easily. i am also a fan of popper and i thought the links between that philsophy and taoism were strong. i definately want to find out more about taoism and buddhism now, as well as quantum physics.

the strongest point to me was the way all of these elements were brought together in a strong story. like i said before, it isn't a text book. i couldn't have lasted through something like that.

the weakest point was the middle of the book where the story started to be not so strong. :) but again i think that it could be cleaned up and i also think that that section is important to the story. i said something to paco and he agrees.

as an aside, i'm not suggesting that this board is full of stupid people, only that the book seems to be written for the common man as well as pundits. if you were easily offended by the language i can see why you wouldn't like it but i don't think that is a strike against the story. i think it was written that way on purpose. and just because some of us are well versed in the ideas behind the book doesn't mean that it isn't a great way to present and join the theories. one of the things i liked best about it was that it will appeal to an audience that otherwise probably wouldn't be exposed to this stuff. i think it would make a really good movie.
 
"i don't really agree with you regarding the four letter words. i don't remember a lot of sex and rape. imho the purpose of the book is to emulate reality using graphic language and scenes. i think it would be closer to fantasy if it wasn't so strong. my interpretation was that we have to suffer in order to build callouses. maybe i missed something. "

No, you did not miss it. That is not my world even the world has violence and sadness. I dont have to spend a month in prison to understand the criminal philosophy or be raped to understand the violence. It is an assult to my senses. I try to stay clear of it. I rarely use four letter words at home or in business - even though I have managed hundreds of millions of dollar projects. Some do. Obscene language and violence is the antithesis of a civilized society. That is not reality - at least not where I live. People here still say "Sir" and "Ma'am" in public.

That is not the Tao I look for in one's life. I follow the words of "Desiderata".

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the spirit.

The book is then, not my philosophy, But, now I understand your POV.
 
discipline and taoism

understanding...

you will understand less than you believe if you shut out the world around you -- even the bad parts. experience defines our perspective and i submit that you will not understand the world around you as well as you think without experience. while i agree that you shouldn't go to prison, you will never truly understand it if you don't. this is one of the tenets that hit me hardest in ahlgren's book.

taoism is yin and yang. it is balance. you have rejected that balance in favor of a selective perspective. consider whether or not this message offends you. if it does, what might that mean?

loud and aggressive persons might be loudly and aggressively offering you an opportunity! :)

now i think i finally understand why the book was so offensive to you and i feel closer to the truth. thank you for that.
 
As I said, I understand your POV. And, I dont have to be evil to understand the true nature of evil. Power is neither good nor evil - it is how one uses it. Do you know that today we can simulate large nuclear explosions in a super computer to understand its effect? This does not mean that we can not understand the true devastation because we actually did not explode one.

The capacity to understand lies in the knowledge and the neural configuration of ones brain. The ability to experience certain events and possibilities can be greatly enhanced through meditation and following the methodology of the ancient rishis without actually being there. Consider the dream state. You can still dream being violated without actually being violated - yet your heart will race and pulse get higher and you may wake up with profuse sweat - and call it a nightmare. Do you know why it is so? Do you know how it feels to fly an unicorn? Visit a world that you have not seen depicted in any movies or books? Be in the past and smell and touch people a thousand years ago - a physical experience that no books and movie can provide?

True Taoism is the capacity to expand ones self beyond the limitation of present boundaries of time and space, to simulate a world as if it is real, and yes to feel the power that transcends good and evil.

Been there....done that....
 
Will do... my brain door is always open to new ideas....

"What if you could melt into the entirety of space and time, experiencing multiple universes at will? For thousands of years, spiritualists have claimed that the possibility is real, but only now are modern science and philosophy finally bridging the gap, providing crucial evidence to support those ideas..."

my personal experience for the last 15 years points to that direction and getting stronger everyday....even though my first OBE was in 1962. I am hoping the experience can be exponential in nature....
 
I read the sample of the book.

Is it already in the bookstore, or do you have to order it via mail?

It sounds interesting, cause Tao ideas are very appealing, but how can you apply them in real life without becoming a monk in a monastary?
 
How?

1. Understand the nature of your thought process and the nature of the world around you.

2. Practice meditation and cleansing of mind, body and spirit.

3. Goto One

You can still function in a society but with a higher performance.
 
**You can still function in a society but with a higher performance**

Now that is a very very nice statement!

Thank you for that post.

Edit: so how about some more information about the statement and points 1 and 2? :)

Edit 2: and does OBE means out of body experience? If so, could you tell a bit about it? If not, excuse me. :)
 
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A4Ever:
Edit 1: what you would like to know?

Edit2: OBE ...here it goes. I am sure I posted about it in this forum. First a disclaimer. I experienced something the cause of which I did not know. It matches with what people describe as OBE and hence my use of the term.

It was summer of '62. Just finished my highschool and getting ready to go to college. One night, I was outside (backyard) watching stars on an air mattress. During that time, I was learning transdental meditation even though the name was not invented yet. So, I decided to meditate a little while thinking about earth, our place in the universe. I was highly relaxed. Suddenly, I felt I am about 30 feet up and see myself on the ground on the air mattress. I felt calm. Then I just kept going up and up at very first rate and saw earth below as a very large ball with light glow all around. Cities with points of light everywhere like what you see from a plane but with a background light like it is full moonlight. I kept going somewhere - every thing was dark except a lot of points of light. Then the sky again got lit up and I saw the most beautiful cloud (looked like many clouds) with multicolor hues and strings of lights, swirling patterns and so on... then I moved back towards perhaps earth and in a short order I reversed my path and back on the mattress.

I did not have a stroke or was on any medication or was not dying. Just a normal day. Many years later I saw a picture the hubble telescope took that was identical to what I saw. Since it only happened once and I never had any opportunity to experience it again, I consider it as a fluke. Nevertheless, it was an OBE experience. So, there you have it. At a subconscious level, we have the ability to connect to the underlying cosmic intelligence - I think. One of thesedays I need to do some serious scientific experiments to prove my point one way or the other....

I do have a lot of lucid dreams, most of them with solutions to complex problems I encounter in my job. Others are either past history or a view of futue. I use the stuff I can to earn money. It is good for something....(the performance part)...
 
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Thanks for the story. I am interested in doing that myself, but I just know I would freak out. So first I need to center more, which brings me to what I'd like to know. :)

How exactly can you blend the east and the west, or tao and capitalism, or zen and society or... You see, I try not to be narrow minded :)

There seem to be too much contradictions. As I understand it, the taoist must let go of knowledge in order to know. Right? But I really need to study. You did too. Isn't that a huge contradiction?

The Taoist seems involved yet strangely detached. I just know a buddhist monk would fold the letter in half and continue whatever he was doing before, if he got a letter stating that his whole family was murdered and cut in tiny little pieces. (making it gruesome to make sure the point is made :) )

Universal love, ok. I try that. Two problems with that. I will always love my girlfriend more. No way I'll love her friends just as much. :) Second problem: I study law, I want everybody to have a fair trial, even that murderer from the buddhist story. I call that respect for human beings, even for the murderer (as a human being only of course). He is worthy to be heard, to receive fair punishment. But I could never love him.

The wise man seems naive, is unmoved by what's on the outside and stays centered. But you can not function that way in society. People expect you to argue, just to show you care about it. I don't think that is so wrong either. They expect you to show some emotions at time. I had a friend who constantly reminded everybody that we weren't more than dust in an enourmous universe, just to put everything in perspective. But sometimes that is not good enough.

I could go on. You see what I mean. You seem to have found a good blending. I read that in another thread. 40% private life - east. 60% other life - west.

So what's the trick? :)

I did read your post, but point one and two were very general remarks. How do you suggest we understand the nature of our thoughts and of things around us? What do you do with that first and second point?

Higher performance, now that was the very interesting thing. I thought performance would sink below zero for buddhists. :) How is it possible?

I hope that was clear. Thanks in advance.
 
A4Ever:

Let us start by understanding the tools that are needed to get there. I build expert systems that others call AI. One of the basic foundation in building such a system is "data" - and lots of it. Then I set up rules and associations that provides the information. Then the neural net does recursive algorithms to calculate the new threshold values - that becomes knowledge. I did not reach the wisdom stage on a software because the system is too limited at this time.

Applying the same principle with humans...you need to start aquiring data from your friends, this forum, books, documentaries, text books etc. That is the first step. Then you have to continue doing it for the rest of your life. As you soak in the data, always remember some may be incorrect and others are correct within a boundary condition. Luckily your brain is designed to shift through and create associations while you sleep or meditate.

This will go on for a few years. During this time - always keep an open mind and make sure the data is validated against the boundary conditions and expanded as needed to new conditions. (We call that open mind) You need to acquire data in every field that you interact in your life - medicine, law, politics, psychology, etc...simply because your own life will pass through events that require you to have a basic understanding of this information to make decisions. If you read most of my posts in different topics, you will get a feel for what I am talking about.

This is the best method to manage oneself in a society yet stay detached to a certain extent to keep one centered. Any other method lack survival components. Unfortunately it is not something you can acquire over night. Training can help - but I have not started a school yet (One Canadian wanted me to do that for Canadian business people but flaked out at the last minute).

The procedure is painless but may require one to two hours of talking or several sessions of text communication...I recommend for you to stay on the learning mode for now and gradually incorporate the associations. I will do the best I can to show you the right direction (that reduces the time only). Eventually you will make your own direction....

The reason I did not answer to specific alleged contradictions is in order to resolve it, you need the underlying data and result set which could be massive if you pick piece meal. If you understand this statement...you are in good shape.
 
I couldn't understand the last statement due to language barriers: "if you pick piece meal" does not make sense to me.

But I think that what you mean with that last statement is that to solve the examples I gave, you would need too much data. It would be impossible to turn that into useful information. For example the buddhist monk. Who is he? Which relatives does he have, how old is he, how close to enlightment is he,... There is no straight answer to my examples.

I hope that's what you mean.

The rest of the post is pretty clear I think. You apply data-to-information systems to everyday life. You use a metaphore to say something that I already knew (I think). But I am always tempted to look for easy answers. I must realise once and for all that there's no such thing. :)

The lack of survival components in other systems is that they do not use full data, so they can not reach full information, nor good decisions, right?

Luckily your brain is designed to shift through and create associations while you sleep or meditate
Click to expand...

Is that the process of forming information from the data? Why do you say you need to sleep or meditate for this? Isn't this done by simply thinking?

Thanks.
 
Is that the process of forming information from the data? Why do you say you need to sleep or meditate for this? Isn't this done by simply thinking?

NO. The thinking part only works when you already converted data to information. Then you can draw some conclusions based on that information. However that information has to be limited. The conscious brain can not process too many new variables. That is why the saying "Let me sleep on that". It can only collect the rules that has already been formed in the background.

An analogy is a computer program. When you interact with it, you only see a limited facet of that activity. A lot happens behind the scene. A large company has to collect the data that happens during the day and processed in the middle of the night to digest the data in proper format so that in the morning, the management can get the reports of yesterdays activity. It is the background processing vs the limited processing of the "now" information.

"if you pick piece meal" - means items without reference or context. It is like standing in the middle of the desert and not knowing where you are headed....The analysis and inference is difficult....lot of dancing around the subject matter....you got it...

While you may admire a Buddhist monk for certain aspects of their life style, there is a minor problem in the context of the universe. Assuming it is a great life style, can you analyze what happens to mankind if everybody becomes a Buddhist monk? Ten years from now, thousand years from now? Ten thousand years from now?
 
While you may admire a Buddhist monk for certain aspects of their life style, there is a minor problem in the context of the universe.
Click to expand...

YES!! That's one thing I've always had difficulty with. I admire their tranquility, their control. But they have nothing to do with society. I read books about those monks. They need to beg for food. But what if all the people they begged to converted? They would starve. They probably wouldn't mind though :)

They would make for a very artificial and none surviving society. They would be eaten by wild animals, cause they can't kill them.

The thinking part only works when you already converted data to information
Click to expand...

It is the background processing vs the limited processing of the "now" information.
Click to expand...

But you put a very important thing in subconscious... That makes me feel out of control. What if wrong information is formed?

I bet you're gonna say that you have to make sure to collect good and enough data to increase the quality of the information, and that the decision proces stil has the final word, so that errors in information can be filtered out :) Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Which is the nature of the processes that are used to form information in the subconscious?

Is there more to say about the thought proces, and what would you give as a short insight to the nature of the world around us? Is that where the Tao kicks in?

Thanks.
 
I recommend a book you can pick up at any library. It can provide some insight as to how our brain works (real life analysis). You should also read some background information on the good doctor.

Everything in slow doses.....:D

The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat
by: Oliver W. Sacks



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Hmmm....yes.... I was asking a lot of things there, wasn't I? :)

I will read the book, but only in July, cause I have exams now. Also I don't think you can pick it up in any library here in Belgium, but I will try to find it.

Thanks!
 
If your university library has a electronic catlog, you can search it fast. The book (and other books by the author) is a required reading by students who take medical courses.

Then come back and we shall discuss it. In the meantime you can post other stuff as needed....

Good luck on your exam....
 
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