Feminism

[quinnsong]

@ Arioch,


When women can hit as hard as men and do the physical damage with one punch that a man can do, then your words would not have raised any eyebrows. I have never raised my hand to anyone I have had relationships with, but let us say I did and that I slapped my husband and the n he punched me and broke my nose. Would he be justified in your eyes?

 

[Arioch]

@Quinnsong --

He would have(likely, I've been slapped by a woman hard enough to get a concussion) retaliated with far more force than you used. Unequal force isn't justified in my mind unless one has reason to fear for their life(if you're afraid for your life then don't hold back).

 

[iceaura]

I mentioned some things that I will be glad to not have to put up with anymore if the genders are actually to be treated equally. Does this mean I think that people should hit women? Hell no. All it means is that I don't like putting up with nonsensical rules based on a time long past.

But in your new world you still have to put up with that rule - the rule is, men shouldn't hit women regardless of aggravation, and it would still be n force, and you would still have to put up with it. So what is your point?

Granted there would be new rules about not hitting men either, but that doesn't seem to be a concern of yours.

You are whining about stuff that has no effect on your life, if we believe your protestations. You are singling out feminists for targeted dislike because they aren't, in your opinion, doing enough to solve some problems that men make for each other, and that you don't have. That seems an odd choice.

 

[Arioch]

@Iceaura --

the rule is, men shouldn't hit women regardless of aggravation, and it would still be n force, and you would still have to put up with it. So what is your point?

Really? I thought the rule would be "nobody should strike the first blow". That way we could have one rule which applies to everyone instead of a bunch of rules for everyone.

You are singling out feminists for targeted dislike because they aren't, in your opinion, doing enough to solve some problems that men make for each other, and that you don't have. That seems an odd choice.

Hmm, I'm singling out perceived behavior of some feminist groups in a thread about feminism....you know what, you're right. That was totally uncalled for on my part. I should have come in here bitching about things other than the topic.

 

[ElectricFetus]

You want gender equality? How about you encourage men to not abuse and ridicule men who are abused.

So are you saying women don't condone and ever encourage such behaviour?

Look at how many women are thrilled and overjoyed to see a women beating up a man in public: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks

Look at women laughing with glee at accounts of a man's penis being chopped of by his wife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKgwczruOSQ

The idea that only men are the source of gender roles and sexual oppression is downright sexist: it is claiming that ALL women are somehow beyond promoting hate and oppression.

 

[Randwolf]

If you do that you spoil them, you have to treat them as they are the queen inside in the house and you are the king outside of the house , so it gives them a sense of power .

(bold emphasis mine)

Nothing like reinforcing the idea of "us" and "them" right?

 

[cosmictotem]

Who here is a feminist? Does anyone still think that feminism is a force for good? I don't buy it. Women need to be mindful of what men find attractive, and being belliegerent, loud, and not taking care of one's appearance is not attractive to men, and unfortunately a lot of feminists feel that they should be accepted as they are. Women also need to behave like women, rather than trying to be like men.

I would contend women behaving like men is not feminism but a reinforcement of the agressive and competative ethos of patriarchy.

The docility and civility of women us what makes them a better template for humanity than men.

Women do not need to strive to be more like men. Femininity does not create problems.

Masculinity, with its inherent aggressive and hostile code is the source of the world's problems.

Men should be taught to be more like women.

 

[Bells]

So are you saying women don't condone and ever encourage such behaviour?

Look at how many women are thrilled and overjoyed to see a women beating up a man in public: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks

Look at women laughing with glee at accounts of a man's penis being chopped of by his wife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKgwczruOSQ

Just as there are similar views about women and videos about women, spousal abuse and discussions in the public about the role of women in society and where they actually belong.

For example, 16% of the US population in a survey done a few years ago, think it is acceptable for a man to hit his wife.

The idea that only men are the source of gender roles and sexual oppression is downright sexist: it is claiming that ALL women are somehow beyond promoting hate and oppression.

Not at all. I never made such a claim. What I did say is that it has been predominantly men who have taken to labeling other men as sissies, etc if they do report. They are afraid of being laughed at by other men for reporting it, so they remain quiet.

 

[Stanley]

For example, 16% of the US population in a survey done a few years ago, think it is acceptable for a man to hit his wife.

I love these surveys i have never participated in. Has anyone here ever participated in "surveys" we see on the internet or elsewhere in the media?

 

[Arioch]

@Bells --

Not at all. I never made such a claim.

Wow, is your attention span so short that you forgot what you typed in this very thread(post #53 to be precise)? Here, let me refresh your memory.

You blame the lack of support for battered male victims on women and feminists when the fault lies solely with men. It is not the fault of feminists that men have set the gender roles and demand that men be 'strong manly men'.

The added emphasis on the word "solely" is mine. I felt it appropriate considering.

What I did say is that it has been predominantly men who have taken to labeling other men as sissies, etc if they do report.

This I'll agree with, I just wish you had put it this way first rather than going with tirade you directed at me.

They are afraid of being laughed at by other men for reporting it, so they remain quiet.

As a male I would say that the primary fear is that one might lose attractiveness to potential mates because of the perceived weakness. Sure the laughter would be uncomfortable, but I wouldn't think it powerful enough to effect behavior in the majority of males. Sex is a much stronger motivator of male behavior than shame is(powerful as it is).

Is it any wonder why controlling religions so typically link sex with shame?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Just as there are similar views about women and videos about women, spousal abuse and discussions in the public about the role of women in society and where they actually belong.

For example, 16% of the US population in a survey done a few years ago, think it is acceptable for a man to hit his wife.

A percentage of that 16% include women, for example I have a Jesus freak cousin that believes that god commands her to obey her husband and that any disobedience should be punished by him. Again Men are the not sole generated of oppression. I'm not really sure who to blame for this other then her, she was once quite areligious but then got really wet for Jesus, in short she choose to oppressor her self, and honestly what a person chooses to do to themselves that does not affect society I'm just going to have to let it pass.

Not at all. I never made such a claim. What I did say is that it has been predominantly men who have taken to labeling other men as sissies, etc if they do report. They are afraid of being laughed at by other men for reporting it, so they remain quiet.

"Predominantly men" does not give the supposed minority of women a free pass to oppress or stand silent to oppression. I'll bet you abused men are also afraid of women knowing as well or worse rightly afraid that no one, man or women, will believe them. As I showed in a video above some women think its a glorious thing when a women abuses a man, there are accounts of battered men going to abuse shelters and getting laughed out by female staffers.

Many people think me an misogynistic for being passionate about this subject, not at all, most women are not violence, probably more so then men on average, and the oppression by men is a much bigger problem world wide then oppression by women, but I'm not talking about most women, just the ones that are violent an the others that support their violence directly or indirectly by their silence.

My uncle was abused for years by his wife and eventually divorced her, but she accused him of abuse in the divorce and won everything, I would have believe he was lying at the time if it was not for the fact he could barely move with late stage parkinson's, the courts though sided with her despite his obvious handicapped that made physical abuse on his part impossible, why I can only assume because he was a man and she was a women: it must have been more possible in the judge's mind that a crippled man could abuse his wife then the outrageous impossibility of a women abusing his crippled husband, the judge by the way was a women! After having to striped this man naked and plop him on a toilet every night for months on end I became very passionate about the injustice that affected him.

So no, no one should get a pass on oppressing other simply because they come from a class that is generally or assumed to be "oppressed" or not often the the producers of oppression. All oppression is wrong, does not matter who it comes from.

The added emphasis on the word "solely" is mine. I felt it appropriate considering.

Yeah pretty much nailed Bells there as not only sexist but a liar.

 

[iceaura]

"You are singling out feminists for targeted dislike because they aren't, in your opinion, doing enough to solve some problems that men make for each other, and that you don't have. That seems an odd choice."

Hmm, I'm singling out perceived behavior of some feminist groups in a thread about feminism....you know what, you're right. That was totally uncalled for on my part. I should have come in here bitching about things other than the topic.

So bs about problems men cause each other, and you don't have, suddenly becomes reasonable if:

the thread is about feminism and

you blame these problems on feminism. Or in the revised version "some feminist groups".

Are we to assume the "some feminist groups" you refer to are made up of men, in that case?

So no, no one should get a pass on oppressing other simply because they come from a class that is generally or assumed to be "oppressed" or not often the the producers of oppression. All oppression is wrong, does not matter who it comes from.

So you describe a situation created and maintained by a misogynistic patriarchy, and object to the injustice suffered by your uncle under it

- and indeed, backing the oppressive presumption that women are weaker than men and assumed docile or nonviolent with the power of government to distribute goods and constrain rights is bound to lead to severe injustice now and then -

but you seem to be complaining about the role of feminism in that. Why? Certainly a feminist perspective would be exactly what your uncle needed in that courtroom.

 

[Arioch]

@Iceaura --

Where did I blame feminism for these problems?

 

[iceaura]

Where did I blame feminism for these problems?

When you ascribed responsibility for doing something about them to feminists, and justified that by pointing to the OP topic "about feminism". The connection between the supposed failures of feminists (they aren't doing enough to fix the problems you have with other men and their patriarchal institutionalized misogyny) and feminism itself (your misrepresentation of the OP topic) is yours (and the OP in reality), not mine.

 

[Arioch]

@Iceaura --

When you ascribed responsibility for doing something about them to feminists

I thought I put the responsibility on society as a whole, not on any one group that makes society up. But given that feminists are a part of society I can see how you would jump to that conclusion.

(your misrepresentation of the OP topic)

I didn't realize that I presented any interpretation of feminism nor any of the many feminist groups out there. I simply highlighted behavior that I don't like, how is that "blaming" anyone for anything?

 

[iceaura]

I thought I put the responsibility on society as a whole, not on any one group that makes society up. But given that feminists are a part of society I can see how you would jump to that conclusion.

I think the people you actually named and complained about, repeatedly and specifically and exclusively, rather than a whole bunch of people you never mentioned and specifically excluded by reference to the OP, were your subject.

(your misrepresentation of the OP topic)
I didn't realize that I presented any interpretation of feminism nor any of the many feminist groups out there

You misrepresented the OP as being "about feminism" specifically not including "feminists" or "some groups of feminists" as you revised things, in order to deny the otherwise plain meaning of your posts.

 

[Arioch]

@Iceaura --

I think the people you actually named and complained about, repeatedly and specifically and exclusively, rather than a whole bunch of people you never mentioned and specifically excluded by reference to the OP, were your subject.

Where did I use names?

 

[ElectricFetus]

So you describe a situation created and maintained by a misogynistic patriarchy, and object to the injustice suffered by your uncle under it

I'm sorry but when you say misogynistic patriarchy I can't seem to match that with the reality I've seen, it was not a women hating man that judge my crippled uncle the abuser! Are you going to say that somehow the judge was swayed by hatred of women to judge in favour of my uncles abusive wife?

I just don't see this misogynistic patriarchy here in america, sure in developed countries I saw women practically slaves to their husbands, work from before dawn to after night slaving for them just ot get beaten less, but here in America that does not exist anymore or is shunned rightfully. Here in America women get it pretty good: they win custody disproportionally, they get lesser jail time, they can yell abuse or rape and get a man arrest with no evidence, sure there are many situations where women are still "oppressed" like how they still earn less, despite more education, but all of that can't be summed up as mearly male privilege (patriarchy) and hatred of women (misogyny), its illogical!

This is an issue of gender roles that both men AND WOMEN perpetuate and that evil PEOPLE utilize to create injustice in the world! Not about hate of women or a system that some how ALWAYS privileges men when it clearly does not! Calling it "patriarchy" is the first thing feminist do wrong because it dissuade men from their supposed cause of gender equality: because most men in America today don't feel like they have been privileged at all simply because they are men, and in fact in many circumstances they are not privilege at all.

What my uncle needed was an EGALITARIAN perspective in the court room, a perspective that judged my uncle and his wife WITHOUT regards to their genders. Feminism as I've pointed out before general disregards abuse of men and the outspoken feminist even goes to the point to pretending its impossible. You can see this in the quotes Erin Pizzey I posted before for example. Those "feminist" that do in fact believe in equality and would stand up against oppression where ever they see it, even if its a women oppressing a man, I argue are not actually feminist but egalitarians, because the vocal parts of the feminist cause are not for equality, and standing silently by makes you look like your not either, so stop grouping your self with them.

 

[Economister]

Proud to be a feminist.

 

[iceaura]

Are you going to say that somehow the judge was swayed by hatred of women to judge in favour of my uncles abusive wife?

? I am saying that judge was apparently swayed - more than swayed, indoctrinated - by a patriarchal and misogynistic worldview long institutionalized in the US and Western civilization overall - written into the very laws, as well as the customs and standard assumptions.

And in support of that I point to the fact that assuming a wife is weak and docile and kind and unable to abuse characterizes misogynistic patriarchy and runs contrary to every tenet of feminism - what your uncle needed was a feminist judge, male or female, capable of defying the institutionalized presumptions of the US culture and legal system.

He was shafted by the presumptions common to male societal domination. And the people to blame for that are the male societal dominators.

Where did I use names?

"Feminisim" is a name, for example, as is "feminists" used above by you. You used such names above, to specify your subject of complaint. And I don't believe for a second you honestly need to be instructed in this fashion.

Further posting like your last three or four, if addressed to me, will be labeled and dismissed without substantial response. If you have an actual response, you can figure out some way to post it that isn't so obviously trolling.