Feedback on Recent Changes

[Gustav]

News

Welcome to the new-look "Subcultures" section of sciforums.

We have renamed the section "On the Fringe" and have created several new subforums. The Fringe now includes:

Alternative theories
Post your revolutionary new Physics ideas, or discuss alternative medicine, Creationism vs. evolution or other alternative ideas.

Parapsychology
Do you have extraordinary or paranormal powers, or just want to discuss them? This is the place.

UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters
If they come from Out There, you can discuss them in here.

Conspiracies
Tell us how our governments and our scientists are lying to us, and why.

Pseudoscience
If it's On the Fringe and you don't know where to post it...

---

In addition, a couple of subforums have moved house:

Formal Debates is now located in the sciforums.com category.
SciFi & Fantasy is now located under Life.

 

[drumbeat]

Is more psuedo-science a good thing?

 

[Gustav]

the above was quoted from an announcement thread in the fori under On The Fringe

if one wants offer up a few suggestions for any further mods or tweaks, feel free to do so.

-----------------------------------------------

with regards to the UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters forum.......

/sigh

the inclusion of "Ghosts" in the title.....

The term parapsychology was coined in or around 1889 by philosopher Max Dessoir, and originates from para meaning "alongside", and psychology. The term was adopted by J.B. Rhine in the 1930s as a replacement for the term psychical research.[2] Parapsychologists study a number of ostensible paranormal phenomena, including telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, near-death experiences, reincarnation and apparitional experiences.

discussions of such belong in the para forum. remove the reference

the inclusion of "Monsters" in the title.....

what is that? care to give some examples because i can only come up with some hollywood and greek mythology shit. remove that reference too.

you are left with "UFOs"
lets employ the alternate term........Ufology.

with regards to the inclusion of SciFi & Fantasy in the Life subforum....

the focus appears to be way to narrow to justify its inclusion in that forum. if anything, it would be more appropriate to group under Art and Culture. the implication of this move is that other genres could theoretically have a home here. i imagine an argument could be made for a Horror or Romance forum in Life in light of this precedent.

furthermore, since any topic in SciFi & Fantasy could theoretically find a home in Art and Culture, it would make that forum practically redundant. yet deleting that forum is not an option so what are the implications of moving it back to its original home.......​

the renaming of Subcultures to On the Fringe

....what really would be the point of classifying SciFi & Fantasy as "fringe" material? in fact why would sci even need to take a position on what constitutes fringe material or not? take for instance, Alternative theories and its expected contents. it is already considered "fringe" so what we have here is a redundant classification. it is also clear that description has considerable negative connotations thus sci appears to officially endorse an unwarranted prejudice towards its own subforums.

in light of these conjectures, i propose a reversion back to the original title...subcultures. it is nonjudgmental, all fori in it have the virtue of being viable sub cultures found in modern societies and it maintains tradition.

then move SciFi & Fantasy back to its original home​

the inclusion of Alternative theories in On the Fringe

i prefer if it were under science but have not formulated a clear rationale for the move...yet. perhaps others?​

summation:

*rename UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters to Ufology
*rename On the Fringe to Subcultures
*move SciFi & Fantasy back to Subcultures

 

[Gustav]

seed the new forums with a few pertinent and active threads. perhaps two pages of ufo crap in pseudo moved to ufology?

 

[CptBork]

I noticed the new forums shortly after they were introduced, and I think it looks great (for starters). The subfora are appropriately titled IMO- if people want to believe in spooks and monsters in the closet, more power to them, but these kinds of superstitions shouldn't be glorified with some technical-sounding title suggesting the evidence holds a candle to the mainstream scientific view.

Love the subtitle on the conspiracy theories subforum, it's straight and to the point.

 

[Gustav]

I noticed the new forums shortly after they were introduced,......

interesting point you raise there. i noticed them long after they were introduced.......yesterday?

....but these kinds of superstitions shouldn't be glorified with some technical-sounding title suggesting the evidence holds a candle to the mainstream scientific view.

is that a cautionary note or response to efforts to "glorify"?

 

[Gustav]

since the other new forums...Conspiracies and UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters fits fairly comfortably in Subcultures, it appears that the only reason why that forum was renamed On the Fringe was to accommodate Alternative theories. several forums were pwnd for the sake of one

as far as subforums go , it is better be impartial and non-judgemental the higher up the hierarchy one is. for instance

/sciforums/on the fringe implies /sciforums/various crackpottery fori

it is akin to bork's.....

but these kinds of superstitions shouldn't be glorified

on the other hand.......

/sciforums/subcultures/"various crackpottery fori" adds a layer of insulation against an official endorsement of crackpottery. it clearly indicates that views propounded here are not mainstream but sci acknowledges there are segments of our society that thrives or even built an industry of sorts around this kind of stuff and we generously afford them a voice here. we do so without overt prejudice

---------------------------------

while we are nitpicking......

ESP, telepathy, faith healing, precognition, dowsing, talking to dead people

thats the desc for para
esp seems covers all the subsequent ones so mod to "extra sensory perception" and eliminate the redundancies. add "ghosts" if you wanna

 

[Tiassa]

I must disagree

summation:

*rename UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters to Ufology
*rename On the Fringe to Subcultures
*move SciFi & Fantasy back to Subcultures

In truth, I must disagree with all three of these points.

• Ufology — This is a subcultural phenomenon that, through its necessary corrolary, aliens (EBEs), represents a modern expression of superstitions that historically have included ghosts, monsters, angels, and devils/demons. The idea of Ufos, Ghosts, and Monsters works. Ufology would exclude its historical predecessors.

• On the Fringe — Perhaps I would have used a variation on that title, like "Fringe Elements", or some such, but in the end, it works well enough for me. The problem with the proposition of renaming OtF to Subcultures is that it is far too limiting. Subcultures include BDSM and AB sexual hedonism, punk music, beat poetry and hippies, stoners, and so on. We've never opened subfora for those particular subcultures for diverse reasons. Namely, we're not going to sponsor a BDSM or AB or Swingers subforum; and we haven't seen such acute demand in A&C to open a Punks subforum.

• SciFi & Fantasy — The subforum is well-suited for Arts & Culture, especially as we now have a place for fringe theories that tread into the SciFi realm. Science Fiction and Fantasy, as literary genres, are tremendously popular, and rather quite influential. There is much greater demand for a subforum dedicated to SF&F than, say, Dadaism, "chick-lit", or even historical fiction. Indeed, if demand grows enough in practice—it is not impossible to imagine enough threads spread through History and A&C that we might wish to reserve a specific subforum for historical fiction—we can certainly add to the parent forum. As it is, the A&C forum is inclusive insofar as it is open-ended. The OtF/Subcultures proposition plays here, in that context: It is limiting and exclusionary, and the possible future inclusion of other genres—e.g., Mystery, Espionage, & Adventure—in A&C would seem to sleight SF&F, which are, as I mentioned, powerfully influential and popular literary and pop art genres.​

 

[Gustav]

In truth, I must disagree with all three of these points.

• Ufology — This is a subcultural phenomenon that, through its necessary corrolary, aliens (EBEs), represents a modern expression of superstitions that historically have included ghosts, monsters, angels, and devils/demons. The idea of Ufos, Ghosts, and Monsters works. Ufology would exclude its historical predecessors.​

what the addition of ghosts and monsters imply is that be they be considered on their own account. we are now encouraging members to create "i saw a monster" thread. you encourage a possible ufo sighting to be considered in archaic forms such as your angels and monsters.

how many "monsters" have you seen in tt's? i counted less than 10 ghost/ghosts in tt's in para and pseudo

i do not see how "ufology" would limit any historical considerations of the various superstitions you present. on the contrary it is implied and all are free to present the comparison.

your premise is that since it is not explicitly included in the forum title, such considerations are necessarily excluded. that just seems silly

 

[Tiassa]

Exo-welcome?

i do not see how "ufology" would limit any historical considerations of the various superstitions you present. on the contrary it is implied and all are free to present the comparison.

As you're aware, I live in the Pacific Northwest.

I would ask you to imagine the following:

UFOLOGY

• I saw Sasquatch

• Lights over Nebraska city

• Yeti lives

• I saw a winged, evil-looking midget molesting my wife as she slept. What is it?

• Nazca lines a landing strip for ancient Indus flying machines

• help! werewolf ate my cat!

• Silver Bullets and Spark Plugs: Wolfman vs. Frankenstein

• top ten reason mods suck

• Secret DARPA lab creating Halflife's headcrabs

• dimensional portals in islam—palestinians are evil
​

In a Ufology subforum, the likely outcome is: Free Thoughts, on topic, Free Thoughts, Cesspool, on topic, Free Thoughts, SF&F, SFOG or Cesspool, Pseudoscience, Cesspool.

Just sayin' ....

 

[Gustav]

In truth, I must disagree with all three of these points.

• On the Fringe — Perhaps I would have used a variation on that title, like "Fringe Elements", or some such, but in the end, it works well enough for me. The problem with the proposition of renaming OtF to Subcultures is that it is far too limiting. Subcultures include BDSM and AB sexual hedonism, punk music, beat poetry and hippies, stoners, and so on. We've never opened subfora for those particular subcultures for diverse reasons. Namely, we're not going to sponsor a BDSM or AB or Swingers subforum; and we haven't seen such acute demand in A&C to open a Punks subforum.​

the actual proposition is allowing the original title remain
so for 11 years you have been fighting off attempts to expand subcultures to include bdsm? and that is why the rename occurred?

how is subcultures "limiting"? limits what? the inclusion of your list? :shrug:

again my point is that yes there is a ufology sub culture. as for existing in the fringes and margins of society......

80% believed that other life forms exist in the Universe
55% believed that there is a foundation in truth for the existence of UFO’s
38% answered no.

....that is open to interpretation. therefore i prefer if sci to officially remain noncomittal and refrain from societal judgments

how hard is that to understand?

 

[Tiassa]

Today's Sesame Street is brought to you by the word "overstatement"

the actual proposition is allowing the original title remain

I actually think it works better this way:

As it is, the A&C forum is inclusive insofar as it is open-ended. The OtF/Subcultures proposition plays here, in that context: It is limiting and exclusionary, and the possible future inclusion of other genres—e.g., Mystery, Espionage, & Adventure—in A&C would seem to sleight SF&F, which are, as I mentioned, powerfully influential and popular literary and pop art genres.​

so for 11 years you have been fighting off attempts to expand subcultures to include bdsm? and that is why the rename occurred?

Something about melodramatic overstatement goes here.

again my point is that yes there is a ufology sub culture. as for existing in the fringes and margins of society......

80% believed that other life forms exist in the Universe
55% believed that there is a foundation in truth for the existence of UFO’s
38% answered no.

....that is open to interpretation. therefore i prefer if sci to officially remain noncomittal and refrain from societal judgments

Of the 80%, they have good reason to believe. I'm expecting we'll find some sort of life elsewhere in the solar system.

The 55% aren't exactly on the fringe. To the one, we can simply point out that ufos exist, and the only question is what they actually are. To wit, I once monitored a ufo over West Seattle for about an hour before I could remove it from the unidentified flying object category; it really was a weather balloon. Indeed, I'm also more likely to believe that the strange lights associated with Groom Lake and environs are are more likely experimental technology. There are more things in heaven and earth, after all, than dreamt of in our philosophy.

The 38%, which I'm juxtaposing with the 55%—lest we end up with 173%—I can't explain so easily. Some are just unimaginative, insecure dolts. Others are simply insistently wannabe objectivists.

how hard is that to understand?

Not especially. I just think you're overstating the point, though whether by a simple multiplier or orders of magnitude I shan't speculate.

 

[leopold]

UFOs should be in its own subforum

edit:
add "perceived gods" to ghosts and monsters.

 

[Gustav]

Just sayin' ....

/flummoxed

i want to try and understand what is being said or imagined here

you group sasquatch under ufology then go into say in a ufology forum, sasquatch threads will be moved out? are you against it being moved?

are you saying that sasquatch belongs in a ufology forum? a personal preference? is that why it was grouped under ufology?

and what is this shit about welcoming exosci back? hasn't pseudo always been around?

 

[Tiassa]

It's actually easier this way; and it's appropriate, too.

you group sasquatch under ufology then go into say in a ufology forum, sasquatch threads will be moved out? are you against it being moved?

are you saying that sasquatch belongs in a ufology forum? a personal preference? is that why it was grouped under ufology?

and what is this shit about welcoming exosci back? hasn't pseudo always been around?

I'm not really saying much of anything other than I see a certain working order in it. That is, the question disappears entirely with the subforum titled as it is. I'm not suggesting tequila and scrambled eggs here, but rather a common bond between the genres of legend.

No, a sasquatch thread doesn't belong in Ufology unless the underlying theory is that it is an EBE.

No, incubi and succubi don't belong in Ufology unless someone is going to dig up the Ark scene in Ezekiel and claim its aliens. (Yes, I have read that theory before. Once upon a time in childhood.)

Don't know what to say about lycanthrope dining habits. Unless, of course, the EBE thing.

You seeing a pattern here?

With the common bond between these genres of legend, the question disappears by this grouping.

 

[Gustav]

I actually think it works better this way:

As it is, the A&C forum is inclusive insofar as it is open-ended. The OtF/Subcultures proposition plays here, in that context: It is limiting and exclusionary, and the possible future inclusion of other genres—e.g., Mystery, Espionage, & Adventure—in A&C would seem to sleight SF&F, which are, as I mentioned, powerfully influential and popular literary and pop art genres.​

wtf?

SciFi & Fantasy is in Life not Art and Culture. Life should have more mainstream fori nested under it not some goddamn niche shit.
open ended shit like sports are sufficiently broad in scope to be nested under Life. you can then nest specific types of sports under that if the need arises

life/sports/various sports rather than life/footballand life/soccer etc

do we need a mile long front page?

likewise.......life/literature/various genres rather than life/scifi and fantasy

 

[Gustav]

just look at that shit. it does not make sense!

the only reason why that scifi had to be moved was because it could not be considered woo woo

subcultures was renamed to fringe due to personal prejudices. prejudices that are now being hosted on the frontpage of sci.

jesus fucking wept!

 

[Tiassa]

(Insert Title Here)

wtf?

Sorry, I wasn't high enough.

Right. I'll get back to you.

 

[chimpkin]

Tiassa:
We're not going to sponsor a BDSM or AB or Swingers subforum;

Damn!
I go to this big social networking site...which is also unofficially a great place for people into weird crap to hook up. On this site the classic noob question seems to be:

"What is up with those diaper people?"
You would be surprised at how many people get off to using diapers.
No, I dunno why either.
And I took a class on this stuff. Paraphilas never cease to, ehrm, puzzle the crap out of me...and I have my own set of paraphilias that doubtless would horrify a number of people.
(Masochism, it can't be beat! :bugeye:...)

Hey, you did say you wanted to increase traffic...

I am going to see if this causes the flakiness to get encapsulated or if we become besieged with woo-woos; as I feared; I guess it's an experiment in applied social behavior...

 

[CptBork]

Of the 80%, they have good reason to believe. I'm expecting we'll find some sort of life elsewhere in the solar system.

I'm not hugely hopeful of finding life elsewhere in the solar system, and if we found something like a virus there would be plenty of flat-earthers arguing it's not really life... but almost certainly I think there's life of the indisputable kind less than a trillion light-years away. I always thought it would be cool to have a fake TV show patterned after Steve Irwin, but with some crazy Aussie space explorer in the distant future going around to different planets and f***ing with the local alien wildlife. He should wear those silly shorts too when the local atmosphere permits.

The 55% aren't exactly on the fringe. To the one, we can simply point out that ufos exist, and the only question is what they actually are. To wit, I once monitored a ufo over West Seattle for about an hour before I could remove it from the unidentified flying object category; it really was a weather balloon. Indeed, I'm also more likely to believe that the strange lights associated with Groom Lake and environs are are more likely experimental technology. There are more things in heaven and earth, after all, than dreamt of in our philosophy.

Yeah but usually it's something insanely stupid like lightning, or an optical lens distortion. Definitely doesn't deserve to be glorified in its present state of understanding. If the claimants could produce mass UFO sightings on demand, or Red Sea partings or what have you, it would be different.

No, a sasquatch thread doesn't belong in Ufology unless the underlying theory is that it is an EBE.

Agreed. The Sasquatch doesn't deserve that kind of defamation, he's as much a victim of the mortgage crisis as everyone else and he doesn't need crazy human beast hunters adding to his already substantial troubles.

No, incubi and succubi don't belong in Ufology unless someone is going to dig up the Ark scene in Ezekiel and claim its aliens. (Yes, I have read that theory before. Once upon a time in childhood.)

I once had someone tell me that the Egyptian pyramids were constructed by using flutes to manipulate quantum gravitons. Like if Mozart hit the right notes, maybe the whole concert hall would go flying to the moon. Yeah, doesn't deserve much respect on a science board.