Fallacy , Space can be bent , warped or contorted .

I used the Youtube only to demonstrate the Einstein thought experiment.

Any additional information was added by the poster and I caught the error in it. What exactly is the problem here?
What do you mean? You brought it here to our attention, and then questioned us what's wrong with it. James pointed out what's wrong with it. Which is all good. No worries there.

What's unusual is that I think it's the first time we've ever witnessed you find something online and actually take a moment to read and question it, rather than just mindlessly regurgitating it. You've made a habit of spamming threads here with references that are irrelevant or not comprehended by you - mimicking a spambot that is triggered by buzzwords, and responding with a vomit of uncomprehended fact-dump. You've been called out on his hundreds of times by virtually everyone.

This is the first time I've seen any sign that you actually might have paid attention to anything you scrape off the internet and post here. It's just notable, that's all.
 
It is up to the user to make judicious use of the resource, which I try to confirm with quotes and reference to authorship..
This is not "judicious use of the resource". AI makes up quotes and makes up references.

After all, book libraries are also full of shite, that why we are constantly fighting for freedom of speech, because there is always someone who wants to ban books or information.

Does anyone here advocate for censorship, banning, or for peer review to determine its scientific value?
It is not "banning" or "censorship".

It is a matter of credibility. If you tried to support your claims using, say, Velikovsky or von Daniken, you would be just as quickly summarily dismissed. Like AI, they are liars.

That's not banning or censorship. Free speech means you get to say what you have to say; it does not mean you are entitled to be listened to, let alone treated as credible.
 
I agree. That is why I asked the question to separate that closing addition from the main theme. You yourself approved of the elevator sequence.

But I don't like these sweeping statements about the uselessness of AI. It's here to stay, and it will rule the information sharing world.
It is up to the user to make judicious use of the resource, which I try to confirm with quotes and reference to authorship..

After all, book libraries are also full of shite, that why we are constantly fighting for freedom of speech, because there is always someone who wants to ban books or information.

Does anyone here advocate for censorship, banning, or for peer review to determine its scientific value?
I said YouTube was full of shit.

But Dave said, correctly, that AI (he was referring to LLMs) routinely makes up shite. We have all seen plenty of examples, both on science forums and in the news. I have read whole articles in the Financial Times about the problem. One nasty effect is that the web is now filling up with LLM- generated content, some of which is crap, and this is now being used by other LLMs to learn from, spreading the contamination.

AI is certainly here to stay but that just makes it all the more important to be alert to its limitations. My own feeling is that LLMs are a disaster and may even be abandoned. It is other, targeted, expert uses of AI that will bring us the benefits.
 
I said YouTube was full of shit.
But that blanket statement is just not true. It is not full of shit. Just as any library it is partly full of shit.
But I agree with much of what you said about AI, after all it has been programmed by humans and many humans are full of shit.

I don't use all AI generated conclusions. I always ask the same question with different parameters and have seen AI contradict itself, depending on the format of the question. But when the content is clearly based on sound scientific papers (see the accompanying numbered references), the the originals may be accessed for authenticity.

But YouTube also has valuable content when perused with some discretion. There are a lot of excellent recordings of live lectures by noted scientists at accredited colleges such as the Royal Institute (see Ri), or the Ted Talks (TED) at various colleges around the world.

Many noted scientists have lectures or discussion on serious and credible scientific matters on YouTube and University produced videos.
Unable to attend college myself, I use these venues to hear prominent scientists like Bassler, Bohm, Carroll, Dawkins, Einstein, Greene, Hastings, Hawking, Hossenfelder, Penrose, Seth (and many more) as they give lectures or participate in recorded symposiums around the world.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I intend to inform myself on the state of science and I try to consult all available scientific information on my favorite subjects when it is being discussed at large.
 
But that blanket statement is just not true. It is not full of shit. Just as any library it is partly full of shit.
If you don't have a way of separating the good from the bad, then it's irrelevant what the ratio is.

Only occasionally do I make a left turn across traffic, drive into a field and hit a cow. But don't call me a shitty driver - that's a blanket statement. Easily, 29 out of 30 days I don't screw up.

I don't use all AI generated conclusions. I always ask the same question with different parameters and have seen AI contradict itself, depending on the format of the question. But when the content is clearly based on sound scientific papers (see the accompanying numbered references), the the originals may be accessed for authenticity.
No they can't. AI's job is to look like it knows what it's talking about. If you have no way of verifying that everything or anything that it says is true, then it is totally unreliable (because any given answer might be false - you wouldn't know).

It's comparable to my drviing record, above. It doesn't matter if I don't kill a cow 29 times out of 30. You're not going to get in my car if there's any doubt I might drive into a cow this time. You can't trust me. Ever.

But YouTube also has valuable content when perused with some discretion.
The point here is that you apparently didn't. You posted a video that contained blatant falsehoods. How do you know anything else it said in that video is true? (And if you do know what's true, then you don't need the video).

There are a lot of excellent recordings of live lectures by noted scientists at accredited colleges such as the Royal Institute (see Ri), or the Ted Talks (TED) at various colleges around the world.
Yes. More of that please. Less of AI-generated Youtube bots.

None would be better. The number of acceptable cows-crashed into ... is zero.

Many noted scientists have lectures or discussion on serious and credible scientific matters on YouTube and University produced videos.
Unable to attend college myself, I use these venues to hear prominent scientists like Bassler, Bohm, Carroll, Dawkins, Einstein, Greene, Hastings, Hawking, Hossenfelder, Penrose, Seth (and many more) as they give lectures or participate in recorded symposiums around the world.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.
But what you post here is an indication of whether or not you are doing that. In this case, you posted a video that was obviously shite.

I intend to inform myself on the state of science and I try to consult all available scientific information on my favorite subjects when it is being discussed at large.
Then why waste everyone's time posting shite? is it deliberate? A buggy 'Send' button?

Why not post some of the credible stuff from those prominent scientists?

That is the nature of credibility. If I were a banker and 99 times in a hundred I gave you the full amount on your paycheck - but only once or twice a year I cheated you by a few sawbucks - would you ever trust me again?

How many times can I cheat you with you still trusting me? 5%, 25%? Zero??
 
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Then why waste everyone's time posting shite? is it deliberate? A buggy 'Send' button?
Is it not what this forum is for? The discussion if new and/or old ideas are/were good or bad science. How much bad science has gone before good science replaced it? I bet the ratio is very high. So who decides what bad science is unless there is concensus of good science?

As Anil Seth observes, "when everyone agrees we call that reality", but exactly what does everyone agree on?

Is there concensus about "quantum gravity"? Is it good science or bad? Who is to judge?

I remember a saying that all "science giants stand on the shoulders of those who came before", presumably doing good science.
But how many fell by the wayside, because of bad science?
How many times can I cheat you with you still trusting me? 5%, 25%? Zero??
False equivalence. Intent is not in question here. AFAIK, a proposal is not a declaration of truth. It is usually a genuine belief in a perceived possibility rather than intent to defraud.. Note that a denial of a truth can also be from false intention, a protection of the status quo..

Why not post some of the credible stuff from those prominent scientists?
That is all I do and get chided for. I never claim authorship, I just want to discuss really interesting issues on their merits as proposed by bona fide scientists.
 
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You posted a video that contained blatant falsehoods. How do you know anything else it said in that video is true? (And if you do know what's true, then you don't need the video).
I posted that video for its true content about Einstein's man in the elevator. I did notice the error later in the video and brought attention to it.
I posed it as a question because that would invite a response, which it did.
Are you now accusing me of not doing what I actually did ? I addressed both truth and falsehood, but I just can't win for losing. Its frustrating.

As far as I know the main complaint about my posts is that they are "plagiarized", but I have never claimed credit or authorship.
As to AI making things up that cannot be verified is a hasty conclusion. Again, those little numbers that follow statements are links to the source where the AI got the information from. Click on any number and it leads you to the original paper or author of the original content.

AI is like any reference resource. The inquiry must be formulated in a proper manner for the AI to use its logical algorithms effectively.
 
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Does anyone think the AIs will eventually facilitate the reframing of physics? While GR is astonishingly accurate and the standard model has its points, they need a multitude of crutches to keep them on their feet, DE and DM, for example. They, the AIs, are not prejudiced, they are remarkable things for all their own faults, and they will improve. There does seem to be a situation at the moment where any alternate view from the mainstream is picked apart while ignoring the holes in their own system. I see no reason why a carefully guided AI would not be good at this work
 
Does anyone think the AIs will eventually facilitate the reframing of physics? While GR is astonishingly accurate and the standard model has its points, they need a multitude of crutches to keep them on their feet, DE and DM, for example. They, the AIs, are not prejudiced, they are remarkable things for all their own faults, and they will improve. There does seem to be a situation at the moment where any alternate view from the mainstream is picked apart while ignoring the holes in their own system. I see no reason why a carefully guided AI would not be good at this work
Expert, specialist AI systems have a lot to offer, I’m sure. Large Language Model- based chatbots seem to be a curse and a waste of time when it comes to science.

Can you give an example of an “alternate [presume you mean alternative] view from the mainstream” that has been unfairly dismissed from prejudice in the way you suggest? In my experience of reading about them, all theories get picked apart and most of these rejected alternatives fail to get traction for sound reasons. But I admit it’s a generalisation, so I’d be interested in specific examples I may not have come across.
 
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Well, yes. There are many. Darwin and evolution, Einstein and GR for 2. Obviously now, they are the mainstream because it’s difficult to pick them apart.
But it would make much more sense for structure to be biased, to cohere and follow a path of least cost than to follow spacetime and have to magic up dark matter because it doesn’t fit.
I’ll bet that an experienced physicist could steer an LLM to produce an entirely ground up model of the universe that would be very hard to pick apart.
You sound like an ex chemist. When I first learned about Schrödingers wave functions and school level chemistry fell into place, it was fascinating that it was so completely unclear what these quantum ‘particles’ are (and remain). You’d have to admit that there’s something deeply fishy the general manoeuvrings that occur at these levels of physics. I mean, what if everything was simply phase, coherence and bias
 
Well, yes. There are many. Darwin and evolution, Einstein and GR for 2. Obviously now, they are the mainstream because it’s difficult to pick them apart.
But it would make much more sense for structure to be biased, to cohere and follow a path of least cost than to follow spacetime and have to magic up dark matter because it doesn’t fit.
I’ll bet that an experienced physicist could steer an LLM to produce an entirely ground up model of the universe that would be very hard to pick apart.
You sound like an ex chemist. When I first learned about Schrödingers wave functions and school level chemistry fell into place, it was fascinating that it was so completely unclear what these quantum ‘particles’ are (and remain). You’d have to admit that there’s something deeply fishy the general manoeuvrings that occur at these levels of physics. I mean, what if everything was simply phase, coherence and bias
You have not answered my question.

What is the alternative to evolution that is being dismissed on the basis of mainstream prejudice? I'm unaware of one.

Similarly with GR, what is the rival that is being dismissed?

From your response it looks to me as if you may be conflating the unanswered questions thrown up by these models with a dismissal of alternatives - when actually there aren't any!
 
I did answer your questions, those 2 theories were dismissed at the time of their first proposal in the face of mainstream prejudice. Even Einstein dismissed spooky action at a distance. Dismissal of new theory has always happened through history.
I completely agree with you that any new theory has to beat the existing, that’s not in question at all. They either have to offer better predictions and be validated that way, or possibly offer a better, more complete explanation of existing observation. So I cant offer any current examples of theories to beat incumbents, and wasn’t offering any. What I was saying is that the incumbents are not without their flaws which suggests that they’re not necessarily correct, and that it would be an interesting experiment for an experienced scientist, perhaps yourself, to have a run with an LLM and see how it plays. My hypothesis is that they might be better tools than the establishment might care to admit, and in the right hands, like a new pupil in front of a teacher, might be useful.
 
I did answer your questions, those 2 theories were dismissed at the time of their first proposal in the face of mainstream prejudice. Even Einstein dismissed spooky action at a distance. Dismissal of new theory has always happened through history.
I completely agree with you that any new theory has to beat the existing, that’s not in question at all. They either have to offer better predictions and be validated that way, or possibly offer a better, more complete explanation of existing observation. So I cant offer any current examples of theories to beat incumbents, and wasn’t offering any. What I was saying is that the incumbents are not without their flaws which suggests that they’re not necessarily correct, and that it would be an interesting experiment for an experienced scientist, perhaps yourself, to have a run with an LLM and see how it plays. My hypothesis is that they might be better tools than the establishment might care to admit, and in the right hands, like a new pupil in front of a teacher, might be useful.
What you said, in post 108 was "There does seem to be a situation at the moment where any alternate view from the mainstream is picked apart while ignoring the holes in their own system." (My bold)

So I asked for examples of such alternative views. And you have offered none.
 
Oh, I see, my bad, I did not read clearly enough.
I’d have immediately offered the head of this thread, but I checked and see he didn’t even offer theory, merely made a statement. I see there’s a thread about galaxies having ‘stability’ instead of DM. Now I'm with you, you can’t just think something up and offer it as a solution to the world’s problems without something to give it some credence.
However, being devils advocate, this thread was about warped space, I assume he means spacetime, a photon takes the shortest path through distorted spacetime. That would look identical to the path of the photon being biased without any warpage of spacetime. Now I’d be prepared to bet good money that you could persuade an AI to rewrite GR in terms of probability and bias the path of a photon in an identical way to curved spacetime and I’d further that by suggesting the same concept would model galactic rotation without dark matter but would have ‘stability’.
Circling back to my original point, these ideas may well be delivered by nutters trying to ruffle feathers, but (to take this example here) you may ask me ‘bias what, what is it about the photon you bias?’ - a perfectly valid question (of this made up example) but it sort of brushes over the ‘fabric of spacetime’ which suffers from the same problem. Curved spacetime is a mathematical construct that accurately models reality (until it stops and needs DM), and that young crank Einstein produced that idea working at night with a pen and paper. He didn’t have AI to speed him up.
I don’t know, I’m not trying to cause a fight, and hanging around in a pseudoscience forum, I suppose it’s all about the fight….
 
Oh, I see, my bad, I did not read clearly enough.
I’d have immediately offered the head of this thread, but I checked and see he didn’t even offer theory, merely made a statement. I see there’s a thread about galaxies having ‘stability’ instead of DM. Now I'm with you, you can’t just think something up and offer it as a solution to the world’s problems without something to give it some credence.
However, being devils advocate, this thread was about warped space, I assume he means spacetime, a photon takes the shortest path through distorted spacetime. That would look identical to the path of the photon being biased without any warpage of spacetime. Now I’d be prepared to bet good money that you could persuade an AI to rewrite GR in terms of probability and bias the path of a photon in an identical way to curved spacetime and I’d further that by suggesting the same concept would model galactic rotation without dark matter but would have ‘stability’.
Circling back to my original point, these ideas may well be delivered by nutters trying to ruffle feathers, but (to take this example here) you may ask me ‘bias what, what is it about the photon you bias?’ - a perfectly valid question (of this made up example) but it sort of brushes over the ‘fabric of spacetime’ which suffers from the same problem. Curved spacetime is a mathematical construct that accurately models reality (until it stops and needs DM), and that young crank Einstein produced that idea working at night with a pen and paper. He didn’t have AI to speed him up.
I don’t know, I’m not trying to cause a fight, and hanging around in a pseudoscience forum, I suppose it’s all about the fight….
OK, thanks for the clarification. I should maybe explain that it happens to be a bit of a bête noire of mine when people seem to attack what they call "mainstream" [ugh] science, merely on the basis that it does not yet have all the answers to the mysteries of nature. But if we had all the answers, nobody would need to do any research, obviously! So the mere fact there are unexplained phenomena out there is to be expected at the cutting edge. It is not evidence that any alternatives are being suppressed. Hence my initial challenge to what you seemed to be saying.

In fact, when it comes to Dark Matter there are rival hypotheses being entertained quite seriously. On the one hand, there is the hypothesis that our model of particle physics is incomplete (hence WIMPS etc). On the other there is the hypothesis that gravitation works differently at large scales from what we have hitherto assumed (MOND and its variants). Both have their adherents and are being pursued. Nobody is suppressing anything.

Regarding your remarks about photon paths in space, I'm not a cosmologist and don't pretend to understand GR properly, but as I understand it there are attempts to fit MOND ideas into GR, though this requires ad-hoc and inelegant bolt-ons, which physicists tend to regard with disfavour. However that is sometimes the way new insights arise, e.g. Planck's curve fitting of black body radiation in his attemot to overcome the "ultraviolet catastrophe" at the end of the c.19th. So who knows. It seems most physicists think it is particle physics that needs to be expanded, rather than a modification of GR, but no doubt in time we will see.

With LLMs, I feel fairly confident that is not the way to go where science is concerned. As the name suggests, these models are based on language. They can't do maths, nor can they reason. They have no way to tell truth from falsehood and regularly screw up badly. There are other ways to apply AI that will be far more suitable.

One final comment: don't imagine Einstein was ever thought a crank. He was building on already existing ideas (Lorentz, Poincaré etc). He was also appointed professor within 4 years of the publication of his annus mirabilis papers in 1905, which is evidence of very rapid acceptance of his ideas by the science community. There is in some quarters a bit of a c.19th Romantic myth of Einstein as the misunderstood genius, toiling away in his garret room with no money or recognition, due to the implacable opposition a hidebound establishment threatened by his ideas, etc., etc. That's balls.
 
This may be of interest.

Quantum fractal patterns visualized​

Feb. 28, 2025
By Tom Garlinghouse
A team of scientists from Princeton University has measured the energies of electrons in a new class of quantum materials and has found them to follow a fractal pattern. Fractals are self-repeating patterns that occur on different length scales and can be seen in nature in a variety of settings, including snowflakes, ferns, and coastlines. A quantum version of a fractal pattern, known as “Hofstadter’s butterfly,” has long been predicted, but the new study marks the first time it has been directly observed experimentally in a real material. This research paves the way toward understanding how interactions among electrons, which were left out of the theory originally proposed in 1976, give rise to new features in these quantum fractals.
1745936918438.png
The image shows a quantum version of a fractal pattern, known as “Hofstadter’s butterfly,” which has long been predicted, but the new study marks the first time it has been directly observed experimentally in a real material.

more.... https://phy.princeton.edu/news/quantum-fractal-patterns-visualized
 
I did answer your questions, those 2 theories were dismissed at the time of their first proposal in the face of mainstream prejudice
Darwin (and Wallace independently although they presented their findings together -you can get details on that) published and the works were accepted by the scientific community within about 15 years. His colleagues were finding similar trends and evidence of Evolution in the field. "Spooky action" for Einstein was not his theory.
 
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