Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.

Status
Not open for further replies.
so what... the fact is Sir Isaac Newton was a devout Christian who was also a theologian.
Write4u has stated explicitly :
p.s. I don't consider theists as intelligentsia.
Then back peddled when I pointed out that the "father of science" was in fact a theist.
He has since lied at least twice since to avoid loosing face.
simple really.
Back then, you had no choice but to be a theist.

You bring up Newton..

His polished writings on theology were not the musings of a dilettante but were the products of a committed, brilliant and courageous analyst. If he had published his ideas in the late seventeenth century, he would have had to leave the university, and would almost certainly have retired to what he would have seen as the freedom of his manor in Lincolnshire. He would never have enjoyed the senior political and administrative positions he was awarded in the early eighteenth century and indeed, would never have written the Principia or Opticks.

Which is why I asked you, what alternative was that? Do you think he or any of the great thinkers, creators, inventors of the past has any choice?

Religion had to be a part of his life. There was no alternative.

Compare it to today. A government school today does not teach about God or Christ or religious ideology. Back then, they were taught religion first. The fundamental basics of science were taught with a religious lean. Their educators would have been people involved in the Church.

Theism was not optional but mandatory.

Newton approached religion and theology analytically. He was deeply religious, but not in the sense that one would expect. He was analytical of it. And he hid it. With good reason.

As it is to all people of faith, religion was central to Newton’s life. Although there is obviously overlap between them, one should — or might — observe a distinction between Newton’s religious actions and beliefs, and his technical theological researches. The latter consisted of his study of prophecy; the nature of God; the nature and historical role of Jesus Christ; the form and function of pre-Christian religion; the evolution of Christian doctrine, particularly in the century following the Council of Nicea (325 CE), and the documentary history of the Bible and patristic literature. He wrote up much of this work in the form of treatises, many of which are as original and monumental as the works in the exact sciences for which he is best known. The fact that they are not part of the canon of major religious writings from this period is a direct consequence of the views that they express; since they were radically heterodox and would have been considered formally heretical by the Church of England, Newton decided to suppress them.[4]

So your use of Isaac Newton shows that you have not really read much about history. You think it's a trump card? Your 'ta daaaa' moment? It shows a deep level of ignorance of how life was for scientists of those days.

You are talking about periods where people were still imprisoned or even killed for being heretics.

So I ask you again, what alternative was there?

And before you answer, try and open up a history book or two.

not true.... take it up ...start a thread.. let's have at it...
I am sure we will have a great readership all waiting with baited breath to see you make your point...
Seriously , it's about time for a Rohingya thread especially given the recent events over there any how...
Why?

Do you want to defend genocide some more by calling it something else? Or do you want to lie some more? And I guess we know the answer to that, don't we?

A word of advice, QQ, trolling as you do with your dishonest schtick, is really not a good look.
 
No reason, I agree, yet you are dishonest by word and by deed, and seeminly oblivious of it.
No distortion. The attempt at association is clear with your use of the term "extreme" and the examples you have subsequently given. If no association was intended, why example them at all? It's not rocket science.
I have no idea what their particular philosophical and metaphyscial beliefs were, religious or otherwise, beyond their actions and their well document political ideologies. Do you? No, of course you don't.
That's at least what you believe of me.
"How I would define it is thus:
Atheistic extremism is a belief system that requires a person to evangelize deterministic fatalism. Claiming the belief to be about natural law and that there is no alternative to that belief.
That those who believe in self determination are deluded or inclined towards theism.
Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism.
Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment.
"​
Given that you have now explicitly stated that you think me an extreme atheist, in nearly the same breath as you example other "extreme atheists", I'm sure you can provide one example, just one, of where I have satisfied any of your definitions above? Just one? Please? Pretty please? Can you do that?
More ignorance on your part, QQ. Ah, well. Should we have expected anything less? Simple answer: no. And foolish us for thinking otherwise.
You are ignorant of my, and likely most, atheists' belief systems, whatever they may be. Yet you link me by association to abhorrent people, simply because you opine both of us to be "extreme atheists". You are just proving that this thread had nothing to do with discussion and was just a desire to flame and insult those who you haven't been able to keep up with in other threads.
Objective achieved, it would seem. Congratulations. Can we have a big ol' round of applause for QQ!

But seriously, please don't respond unless it is accompanied by an apology to me and the other atheists you have tried deliberately to insult, attempting to associate them with abhorrent historical figures, simply because you think we hold a philosophy (not that you actually know that we do or not) that you don't understand and which you have in no way linked to those others. And an apology to everyone else for your rampant dishonesty throughout. Even just an apology by way of PM, if you're too embarassed to do it in public?
Please tell me and all the readers why my opinion is so offensive to you.....why are you so defensive and sensitive to the opinion of little ole me...
Even though you don't even know what my opinion really is....
 
so what?
he was a theist: yes or no?
He had no other option but to be a theist.

I mean, I get that it's somewhat complex. Like this might be construed as being complex:

51hcvFaPPDL._SX425_.jpg


But please try.

There was no alternative to theism without the risk of losing one's standing in society, his position in society and within the scientific community, his employment prospects, to possible death.. He even hid his own writings and analysis of religion and theism and his own religious belief out of fear of repercussions.

So when you respond with "so what? he was a theist: yes or no?" again shows breathtaking levels of ignorance and the inability to analyse and understand history.

In other words, your argument, or your comeback, if you will, is silly. It's the kind of response that would normally generate a 'what the fuck?' uttered under one's breath, because it could only come from someone who is trolling or genuinely ignorant.

Ignorance can be forgiven if one strives to educate themselves. Or be open and willing to learn. But you do not do that. You double down. To the point where one can only be left to think that it is trolling.
 
And before you answer, try and open up a history book or two
If I may add why Darwin hesitated 23 years before publishing his (on the) "Origin of Species".
Charles Darwin knew that once he announced his findings, he would become the center of a debate between religion and science. He knew he would shake everything that people had believed for so long. Darwin waited 23 years to present his work to the public.
https://biography.yourdictionary.com/articles/why-darwin-wait-long-publish-his-theory.html

He was not conflicted about his work, he was afraid lest someone kill him in a theistic rage as so many scientist had been killed or forced to "recant" before by extreme religious zealots.

The US Establishment Clause is not intended to guarantee freedom of religion.
It is to guarantee freedom from religion.
 
Last edited:
Even though you don't even know what my opinion really is....
Bahh.!
Yet you seek to forbid Atheists from posting their opinions on penalty of being labeled Extreme Atheists because they prefer a scientific solution to the question of origins which you have yet to declare as you just admitted?

Have you no shame?
 
Please tell me and all the readers why my opinion is so offensive to you.....why are you so defensive and sensitive to the opinion of little ole me...
Even though you don't even know what my opinion really is....
#11 "Atheistic extremism is a belief system..." - i.e. there is one kind. Included within this are "Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism. Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment."
#122 You associated a troubled man with atheistic extremism on the grounds of... what, your expertise as a psychological profiler?
#156 You provide further clarity on what you view as an "extreme atheist": "An extreme atheist is a person who denounces freewill and self determination as being illusionary due to their belief in the deterministic doctrine of secular Fatalism combined with Pre-determinism as a way to justify their belief in the non-existence of God ( as per their definition of the word God)"
#252 You publish a list of atheist mass-murderers with the tag line "Something about extreme atheism goes here...." - so a further clear association of those you are referring to as extreme atheists and these mass-murderers.
#262 "Major extreme atheists of modern times". You finally get round to linking extreme atheism - you know, those people you think hold a fatalistic philosophy - with Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al.
#334 "but you are an extreme atheist IMO..." - so you've stated quite clearly what your opinion is in this regard.

And that opinion is insulting. Not because you have called me an extreme atheist: you are as ignorant of my philosophical position as you are of most things you put forward. No, the insult is in the association with abhorrent figures such as mass murderers, dictators, fascists etc.
You have defined "extreme atheism" in the first instance, which is fair enough, you can define whatever you want however you want, but then you are equivocating that definition with the notion of "extreme atheism" that includes atheists with extreme political ideologies. And in doing so, in equivocating the two, you insult. It is offensive, as much as it is fallacious and ignorant.

But heck, you'll just ignore it and carry on oblivious, while you burn the house around you, and then you'll run into the street crying about how nasty people set light to your property.
 
#11 "Atheistic extremism is a belief system..." - i.e. there is one kind. Included within this are "Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism. Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment."
#122 You associated a troubled man with atheistic extremism on the grounds of... what, your expertise as a psychological profiler?
#156 You provide further clarity on what you view as an "extreme atheist": "An extreme atheist is a person who denounces freewill and self determination as being illusionary due to their belief in the deterministic doctrine of secular Fatalism combined with Pre-determinism as a way to justify their belief in the non-existence of God ( as per their definition of the word God)"
#252 You publish a list of atheist mass-murderers with the tag line "Something about extreme atheism goes here...." - so a further clear association of those you are referring to as extreme atheists and these mass-murderers.
#262 "Major extreme atheists of modern times". You finally get round to linking extreme atheism - you know, those people you think hold a fatalistic philosophy - with Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al.
#334 "but you are an extreme atheist IMO..." - so you've stated quite clearly what your opinion is in this regard.

And that opinion is insulting. Not because you have called me an extreme atheist: you are as ignorant of my philosophical position as you are of most things you put forward. No, the insult is in the association with abhorrent figures such as mass murderers, dictators, fascists etc.
You have defined "extreme atheism" in the first instance, which is fair enough, you can define whatever you want however you want, but then you are equivocating that definition with the notion of "extreme atheism" that includes atheists with extreme political ideologies. And in doing so, in equivocating the two, you insult. It is offensive, as much as it is fallacious and ignorant.

But heck, you'll just ignore it and carry on oblivious, while you burn the house around you, and then you'll run into the street crying about how nasty people set light to your property.
do you know the meaning of paranoia?
do you know how important context is?

Until you show quoted context your posting is pretty much useless...
 
Last edited:
If I may add why Darwin hesitated 23 years before publishing his (on the) "Origin of Species".
https://biography.yourdictionary.com/articles/why-darwin-wait-long-publish-his-theory.html

He was not conflicted about his work, he was afraid lest someone kill him in a theistic rage as so many scientist had been killed or forced to "recant" before by extreme religious zealots.

The US Establishment Clause is not intended to guarantee freedom of religion.
It is to guarantee freedom from religion.

Yes you are right, don't blow a boiler, Darwin is part of your intelligentsia but Isaac Newton isn't....I understand you completely... ok...
 
So when you respond with "so what? he was a theist: yes or no?" again shows breathtaking levels of ignorance and the inability to analyse and understand history.
so....uhm was he a theist or not?

I suppose you think he was a fake theist?

Which is even worse....
 
#11 "Atheistic extremism is a belief system..." - i.e. there is one kind. Included within this are "Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism. Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment."
#122 You associated a troubled man with atheistic extremism on the grounds of... what, your expertise as a psychological profiler?
#156 You provide further clarity on what you view as an "extreme atheist": "An extreme atheist is a person who denounces freewill and self determination as being illusionary due to their belief in the deterministic doctrine of secular Fatalism combined with Pre-determinism as a way to justify their belief in the non-existence of God ( as per their definition of the word God)"
#252 You publish a list of atheist mass-murderers with the tag line "Something about extreme atheism goes here...." - so a further clear association of those you are referring to as extreme atheists and these mass-murderers.
#262 "Major extreme atheists of modern times". You finally get round to linking extreme atheism - you know, those people you think hold a fatalistic philosophy - with Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al.
#334 "but you are an extreme atheist IMO..." - so you've stated quite clearly what your opinion is in this regard.

And that opinion is insulting. Not because you have called me an extreme atheist: you are as ignorant of my philosophical position as you are of most things you put forward. No, the insult is in the association with abhorrent figures such as mass murderers, dictators, fascists etc.
You have defined "extreme atheism" in the first instance, which is fair enough, you can define whatever you want however you want, but then you are equivocating that definition with the notion of "extreme atheism" that includes atheists with extreme political ideologies. And in doing so, in equivocating the two, you insult. It is offensive, as much as it is fallacious and ignorant.

But heck, you'll just ignore it and carry on oblivious, while you burn the house around you, and then you'll run into the street crying about how nasty people set light to your property.
ok Let's talk a bit about insults and getting offended.
Who has the right to be more offended?
A person who can not stand to be corrected.
or
People such as Bells, JamesR , Trippy and others who are by your opinion void of any freedom to choose what they type on their keyboards?

That all of Bells effort to flame and insult are in vain as they are not her choices?

Who should be more insulted, you or the whole world of people struggling with their daily lives and fighting for freedom and dying in the process.
Who?

Did you ever loose someone fighting in a war?
To suicide perhaps?
So I ask you to clarify who do you think should be more offended, you or the people whom you reckon are no more than deluded organic drones doing a universes bidding.
 
Last edited:
ok Let's talk a bit about insults and getting offended.
Who has the right to be more offended?
...
So I ask you to clarify who do you think should be more offended, you or the people whom you reckon are no more than deluded organic drones doing a universes bidding.
Seriously? Your argument now is who should be more offended by what you have said? And that I somehow, because of the ignorant view and opinion you have taken of me, am not allowed to consider myself as insulted as other people?? That you think because someone hasn't lost someone fighting a war, or to suicide, that they are not allowed to feel insulted by your ignorant and ridiculous arguments? That's the line you're seriously taking??
 
Please quote people accurately. Do not edit words to suit yourself.
Seriously? Your argument now is who should be more offended by what we have said?
quote edited to reflect accuracy
edit: even with the correction your post makes no sense if it is related to my post... Perhaps read it again and try again.
Who has the right to be more offended?
A person who can not stand to be corrected. ( that's you Sarkus)
or
People such as Bells, JamesR , Trippy and others who are by your opinion void of any freedom to choose what they type on their keyboards?
sure why not? You'll make it up any way...
Just think of all those people spending their whole life learning how to self determine, from the time they learn to crawl and eventually stand up as children, getting an education, fighting wars so they can, as a nation self determine, and you have the nerve to come along and try to tell them that they are deluded, that there is no reality to self determination because of some sort of rigid over simplistic logical nonsense.
yeah sure why not.... you are spitting in the face of just about every one....including your self...

I bet if I told you, you had no control over your thoughts and was deluded in thinking you as an identity even existed you'd be upset...yes?
 
Last edited:
and Write4u stated what he stated:
"p.s. I don't consider theists as intelligentsia"

Theism is as flawed now as it ever was. Don't try to hide that fact. It is mythology plain and simple and does not belong in the arena of science or is not worthy of the term intelligentsia. It's primitive superstition.

In the creationist museums (bulwarks of theist knowledge?) we have people riding dinosaurs like the flintstones.
B9321748775Z.1_20160428214333_000_GEPE2F1MM.1-0.jpg

A diorama at the Glendive Dinosaur & Fossil Museum is based on the premise that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time and that the biblical figure Noah brought dinosaurs onto an ark during a cataclysmic world-wide flood.(Photo: TRIBUNE PHOTO/KRISTEN INBODY)

Really? And that "recreation" of the world belongs in the arena of intelligentsia or in a children's zoo?

This was the world of Newton? I doubt it very much.
Isaac Newton (4 January 1643 – 31 March 1727)[1] was considered an insightful and erudite theologian by his contemporaries.[2][3][4] He wrote many works that would now be classified as occult studies and religious tracts dealing with the literal interpretation of the Bible.
Newton's conception of the physical world provided a stable model of the natural world that would reinforce stability and harmony in the civic world. Newton saw a monotheistic God as the masterful creator whose existence could not be denied in the face of the grandeur of all creation.
. Although born into an Anglican family, by his thirties Newton held a Christian faith that, had it been made public, would not have been considered orthodox by mainstream Christianity;[8] in recent times he has been described as a heretic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

p.s. Newton has been described as a heretic by other theists! It's a theist term.

So it seems you don't even have that right. Learn you religious terminology.

But you are welcome to make your case that Newton was a theist. He was a brilliant scientist, but theism does not belong in the arena of science.

my p.s. stands on the merits and now includes you as well.
 
Last edited:
"p.s. I don't consider theists as intelligentsia"

Theism is as flawed now as it ever was. Don't try to hide that fact. It is mythology plain and simple and does not belong in the arena of science or is not worthy of the term intelligentsia. It's primitive superstition.

In the creationist museums (bulwarks of theist knowledge?) we have people riding dinosaurs like the flintstones.

A diorama at the Glendive Dinosaur & Fossil Museum is based on the premise that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time and that the biblical figure Noah brought dinosaurs onto an ark during a cataclysmic world-wide flood.(Photo: TRIBUNE PHOTO/KRISTEN INBODY)

Really? And that "recreation" of the world belongs in the arena of intelligentsia or in a children's zoo?

This was the world of Newton? I doubt it very much. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton

So it seems you don't even have that right.
But you are welcome to make that case. It shows in what arena you intelligentsia belongs. Mythology!

my p.s. stands on the merits.
so you conveniently fail to post the entire paragraph.... how disengenious of you...
By 1672 he had started to record his theological researches in notebooks which he showed to no one and which have only recently been examined. They demonstrate an extensive knowledge of early church writings and show that in the conflict between Athanasius and Arius which defined the Creed, he took the side of Arius, the loser, who rejected the conventional view of the Trinity. Newton "recognized Christ as a divine mediator between God and man, who was subordinate to the Father who created him."[115] He was especially interested in prophecy, but for him, "the great apostasy was trinitarianism.


Newton on End times:

"So then the time times & half a time [sic] are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, recconing twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calender [sic] of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of [long-]lived kingdoms the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner."[134]

"This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, and it is not for us to know the times and seasons which God hath put into his own breast."


Well there you go I didn't know that Newton had used the scriptures to predict end time in 2060 with no reason to expect end times to be earlier....hmmmm

"...if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner." ~ Isaac Newton

Given what we know about climate change he might not be that far off....

hey Bells does that sound like a fake theologian to you? You know the one you reckon is a Christian under cultural duress...

and Write4U... shame on you for deliberately trying to fool the forum.
 
quote edited to reflect accuracy
Stop being so blatantly dishonest. I wrote what I wrote because it reflects exactly what I meant it to say, and it is accurate. YOU are the one who has stated the things I have found insulting. YOU. There is no "we", there is just YOU. Others have joined in on individual aspects, but the insult is in the tying of the two aspects together. YOU did that. Noone else.
edit: even with the correction your post makes no sense if it is related to my post... Perhaps read it again and try again.
Ah, just more blatant head in the sand tactics.

sure why not? You'll make it up any way...
Are you denying what you have posted???
Just think of all those people spending their whole life learning how to self determine, from the time they learn to crawl and eventually stand up as children, getting an education, fighting wars so they can, as a nation self determine, and you have the nerve to come along and try to tell them that they are deluded, that there is no reality to self determination because of some sort of rigid over simplistic logical nonsense.
yeah sure why not.... you are spitting in the face of just about every one....including your self...
No, I'm not. This is simply you and your ignorance of the philosophical position. But instead of try to understand it you created a whole thread in an attempt to flame, ridicule, and yes, insult those who hold it.
The simple fact: you described people as "extreme atheist" and you equated them to abhorrent people. Beyond that simple insult, the manner in which you did it is insulting enough in its lack of intelligence, its ignorance, and its blatant dishonesty.
I bet if I told you, you had no control over your thoughts and was deluded in thinking you as an identity even existed you'd be upset...yes?
Has someone told you that? Or is that just what you have interpreted what they have actually said to mean? If the latter: what did they actually say? If the former: please provide thread and post number? I'm intrigued.
On a more general level, if someone told me something I disagree with, I'd try and understand why they thought what they did, and see where the differences actually lie. Who knows, I might actually learn something. Of course, I could just create a thread to try to ridicule and insult them for having that view when I'm actually ignorant of what the view entails. But who would do that!
 
"...if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner." ~ Isaac Newton

Given what we know about climate change he might not be that far off....
Newton used climate change as proof of his prediction? Where?

Your logical contortions are becoming more and more bizarre.............o_O
 
No, I'm not. This is simply you and your ignorance of the philosophical position. But instead of try to understand it you created a whole thread in an attempt to flame, ridicule, and yes, insult those who hold it.
The simple fact: you described people as "extreme atheist" and you equated them to abhorrent people. Beyond that simple insult, the manner in which you did it is insulting enough in its lack of intelligence, its ignorance, and its blatant dishonesty.
oh Sarkus then answer the simple question:
According to you do humans have freewill and self determination that isn't an illusion?

simple yes or no would be fine...
I'll quote your answer in the what is free will thread later.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top