Extrasensory perception?

Doesn't sense perception imply a direct stimulation of the nervous system? I think that's why logic doesn't qualify. The senses are modes of neurological functioning. Logic is more of a cerebral functioning, not really triggered by some external physical stimuli.
No. Perception is a mental state. Reception is the actual excitation and processing of external stimuli by the senses, before it turns into perception by our brains. Mental perception is the brain's "best guess" of what the senses are receiving.
 
Doesn't sense perception imply a direct stimulation of the nervous system? I think that's why logic doesn't qualify. The senses are modes of neurological functioning. Logic is more of a cerebral functioning, not really triggered by some external physical stimuli.
MR nailed it here.

Senses mean detection of external phenomena. If it's internal, then by definition, you're not receiving any information about the outside world.
 
Magical Realist said:
Doesn't sense perception imply a direct stimulation of the nervous system? I think that's why logic doesn't qualify. The senses are modes of neurological functioning. Logic is more of a cerebral functioning, not really triggered by some external physical stimuli.
MR nailed it here.

Senses mean detection of external phenomena. If it's internal, then by definition, you're not receiving any information about the outside world.
I agree.

Logic is not a sensory receptor of any kind. It is an extra-sensory process, a function (an abstract potential, program) and it is the abstract processing language of the universe. The ability to perform logically ordered chronologies of information processing in an implacable manner.

All things in the universe including the universe are a result of the logical mechanics of it's universal values and functions.

Self Assembling Patterns. Revealed to us via our sensory receptions and cognitive perceptions.
 
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Don't senses have objects? Our senses seem to involve reactions to objects or states of affairs in objective reality. Light, sounds, mechanical pressure, even orientation of one's limbs in space.
Are you saying that when you see an elephant, you really believe there is a real elephant?! Science told us this doesn't work that way. All we are aware of are our "percepts". So, when you believe there is an elephant because you believe you're looking at one, all you are aware of is a percept. Sure, the percept seems an awful lot like a real elephant except you have no idea what would be a real elephant. All you are aware of is a percept that may or may not be a percept of something, and in any case something you don't know what.
So objects, as we are aware of them, and at least as far as we understand what's really going on, are things in our mind. Still, I guess we can't stop ourselves from believing percept to be percepts of real things. In fact, we take them for the real thing. Me too.
OK, that was a derail. That's all probably true but it doesn't matter much. Still, take logical objects to be just as much objects as your elephant. It's just a different kind of objects, but we're familiar with that, as we have to accommodate not only visual objects but also smell objects, but also thing like pains and tiredness and what not, all very different from each other but all with the same characteristic that they are brought to us by our senses. Logic doesn't differ more than any two senses differ from each other. Think of pains and visual object.
So what is the object of a hypothetical logical sense?
The object of our sense of logic is obviously logic and more specifically logical relations, or at least a class of logical relation. So there. Isn't that good enough?
Treating logic (and mathematics by extension) as if they were senses is the line of thinking that leads to mathematical Platonism, to the assertion that the objects of a hypothetical logical/mathematical sense are abstract objects with some objective existence of their own. (Leaving us with the problem of how the logico-mathematical sense connects with them. Seemingly not causally.)
https://www.iep.utm.edu/mathplat/
We don't have a sense of mathematics. Only logic. We use our logical sense to invent mathematical ideas. We have logical intuitions without having to learn logic. We do not have mathematical intuitions unless we learn maths.
I lean very much towards mathematical Platonism myself, certainly in some of my moods. But an opposing line of argument, exemplified by Kant I guess, argues that logic arises from how the human mind works, that logical structure is imposed on reality by our mode of perception/conception. Which kind of turns the question of why physical science works, of why physical reality conforms to our impositions and why reality doesn't produce a lot more anomalous, illogical, counterintuitive and seemingly a-nomic events, into kind of a miracle. (Which motivates the "no-miracles argument" for scientific realism).
Platonism is a metaphysical idea. We can choose for ourselves whether to believe in it. Logic, we don't have a choice, really like we don't have to choice whether we see an elephant or not.
Either that, or the formal structure of our mode of cognition has evolved so as effectively to model the formal structure of how physical events occur out there in reality, which circles us back to something like mathematical Platonism.
Well, you can also choose to believe that.
I have to admit that I don't really have a clue what the foundations of logic are. But that sentence italicized above probably most closely approximates how I'm inclined to think about it. I think that reality possesses form and structure.
Sure, you can believe that. You already believe there are elephants. It's just one little step more.
(What all those mathematical heiroglyphs on physicists' chalkboards hope to capture.) And I think that human cognition is able to (perhaps partially and imperfectly) model that form. (It's not difficult to concoct an evolutionary explanation for why that might be.) Which points toward a possible account for how we can be aware of logic without it being a sense like sight or hearing (it derives from how we evolved to think), and for why physical reality so often cooperates when physicists make logico-mathematical predictions about how reality is going to behave in particular experimental conditions.
Well, that's all we need. Logic is a capacity not only of our brain, but of any neurobiological tissue. Ours just evolved the longest, and so perhaps it's best. Our sense of logic is just the part we are aware of, through our intuitions. Works a bit like memory when you get to remember something, but also like some other impressions, which are essentially secondary percepts, i.e. something like interpretations of our primary percepts in terms of more abstract objects, like threats, possibilities etc.
You're criticizing somebody there. Who, and why?
Scientists for being too slow and ideological.
It seems to me that trying to turn logical intuition into an additional sense runs the risk of turning it into something very close to extrasensory perception. Similar causal mechanism problems etc.
Nothing extrasensory. It works like nociception, memory, and much like any intuition we may have.
Me, I'm quite sure p and q implies p and there's nothing extrasensory about it. It's not so different from remembering something, except you don't have to learn it. All you have to learn are the words to express it, not very different from the words we use to speak, except meaning is learnt throughout our lives.
EB
 
Exactly. Which essentially torpedoes the OP's thesis.
???
My thesis is not that logic is any kind of sensory receptor.
Well, given this shows you can't read the OP properly, what the point of you reading anything I say. Go on, keep misrepresenting what I say. That must do you a lot of good, somehow.
EB
 
???
My thesis is not that logic is any kind of sensory receptor.
Well, given this shows you can't read the OP properly, what the point of you reading anything I say. Go on, keep misrepresenting what I say. That must do you a lot of good, somehow.
EB
Or you could just clarify.
This is a discussion after all.
 
You've already committed the Fallacy of Special Pleading to allow logic as a some sort of "sense". It's hardly a stretch to allow mathematics as well.
You draw an arbitrary cut-off.
Except I explained, so not arbitrary.
Hey, you're just a waste of time.
You go on ignore.
EB
 
This is what you say in your OP:

"why science has not yet recognised, as far as I know, our sense of logic as a sense of perception"

This certainly sounds like a sensory receptor. Otherwise, how is it you're perceiving?


Hey, you're just a waste of time.
You go on ignore.
EB
Sticking one's fingers in one's ears is not a valid refutation.
It is an admission of the indefensible.

That will help readers of the thread, if not you.
 
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Are you saying that when you see an elephant, you really believe there is a real elephant?! Science told us this doesn't work that way
Are you saying that science is auything other than a precept? I mean to say .... if an elephant is a precept then the science that claims it to be is also. A mere mental construct that has consensus agreement just as the observation of an elephant has.
 
Are you saying that science is auything other than a precept? I mean to say .... if an elephant is a precept then the science that claims it to be is also. A mere mental construct that has consensus agreement just as the observation of an elephant has.
Sure, why not? How could it be otherwise? I thought this was no news. Whoa. Still leaving in the 19th century, are you?
OK, not that it makes any kind of difference.
Hmm, or may be it does.
EB
 
Are you saying that when you see an elephant, you really believe there is a real elephant?!

Are you saying that you don't?!

Of course I do.

Science told us this doesn't work that way.

Not any science that I'm aware of. My undergraduate background was in the biological sciences and certainly everyone believed that plants and animals really exist, that the past really happened, that biochemistry really occurs, and so on.

The idealistic sort of philosophers have indeed argued in the way you suggest and I'm sure some scientists here and there have been influenced by them. But I'm most emphatically not a philosophical idealist. I'm very much a realist, as are the vast majority of scientists that I've met. Astronomers believe that stars exist, biologists believe that biological organisms exist, geologists believe that rocks and landforms exist. Physical science is realist by its nature, since otherwise there wouldn't be any "physical".

All we are aware of are our "percepts".

No,no,no. I don't buy into the fantasy that "we" are little spiritual souls, homunculi watching the "physical" world on some "inner" TV monitor (that displays qualia I guess).

For one thing it's solipsistic, since it reduces not only the tables and the chairs, but other people, to my own personal "percepts". (Whatever a 'percept' is supposed to be.) When I argue with you, I don't imagine that I'm just arguing with voices in my own head (if I had a head). Intellectual disputes can't be resolved by upping one's meds. (If there were any meds, there isn't any neurochemistry either.)

So it's anti-physical science, since it seemingly denies astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology, geology and all the rest, reducing them not just to psychology, but to one individual's psychology (mine). Objectivity disappears and everything is subjective. The problem then is giving any meaning to 'reality' and distinguishing it from madness.

It transforms me from a biological being in an environmental context into something transcendental, into whatever it is that's aware of my "percepts", but isn't itself included among the percepts. The 'unknown knower'.

And it doesn't really seem to address the problem of perception. It doesn't explain what a "percept" is, what a 'mind'/'spirit'/'self'/'soul' is, or how the latter 'perceives' the former on the supposed inner TV monitor of phenomenal awareness. It's like trying to account for the origin of reality by appealing to God, as the cosmological theistic arguments do. That just replaces one mystery with an even larger mystery. I don't think that it's helpful to make the same kind of moves with perception.

So, when you believe there is an elephant because you believe you're looking at one, all you are aware of is a percept. Sure, the percept seems an awful lot like a real elephant except you have no idea what would be a real elephant. All you are aware of is a percept that may or may not be a percept of something, and in any case something you don't know what.

So objects, as we are aware of them, and at least as far as we understand what's really going on, are things in our mind. Still, I guess we can't stop ourselves from believing percept to be percepts of real things. In fact, we take them for the real thing. Me too.

Or at least that's your metaphysical belief. I don't share it. I think that there are better (and more realistic) ways of conceiving reality.

OK, that was a derail. That's all probably true but it doesn't matter much.

It's probably helpful to the rest of us to understand what your metaphysical presuppositions are.

Still, take logical objects to be just as much objects as your elephant. It's just a different kind of objects

I suppose that if one adopts your idealistic presuppositions, then that move might be easy to make. I don't find it particularly convincing though. You seem to be trying to make room for logic as another sense by redefining sense away from what the vast majority of of us think senses to be.
 
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So objects, as we are aware of them, and at least as far as we understand what's really going on, are things in our mind.
There's a problem with this sentence. It introduces the notion "as far as we understand what's really going on". What can this possibly mean if awareness of "objects" is in our mind?

Does it refer to what's "really going on", in our mind? Where is that?

Perhaps the sentence underlines the difficulty of abstracting our awareness of the supposed "objects". Are they in our mind, or "out there"? Where then, is "out there"?
 
Are you saying that you don't?!
Of course I do.
Sure, I know you do. That's what I said. It's called "naive realism". We are all subject to it.
So, you're not really reading. Or you are forgetting as you read.
Not any science that I'm aware of. My undergraduate background was in the biological sciences and certainly everyone believed that plants and animals really exist, that the past really happened, that biochemistry really occurs, and so on.
No. Science doesn't say anything about the ontology of the world. Or if it says anything then you can expect it will be shown wrong sooner or later, like Newton.
Science talk of elementary particles. So, you have to decide whether things that exist are elementary particles or elephants. You can't have both, or that would be a kind of Dualism.
And while we know our qualia, we don't actually know our elephants and our elementary particles. Science is best understood as saying nothing about the ontology of the world and instead to be about predicting what we will observe in the future, or more accurately, what we will subjectively experience.
The idealistic sort of philosophers have indeed argued in the way you suggest and I'm sure some scientists here and there have been influenced by them. But I'm most emphatically not a philosophical idealist. I'm very much a realist, as are the vast majority of scientists that I've met. Astronomers believe that stars exist, biologists believe that biological organisms exist, geologists believe that rocks and landforms exist. Physical science is realist by its nature, since otherwise there wouldn't be any "physical".
You're doing the wrong reading. I'm not idealist. I'm a rationalist, meaning empiricism and logic. I am accordingly agnostic about the ontology of the world beyond my conscious mind.
No,no,no. I don't buy into the fantasy that "we" are little spiritual souls, homunculi watching the "physical" world on some "inner" TV monitor (that displays qualia I guess).
???
Who talked about souls?!
Ah, yes, it's you.
For one thing it's solipsistic, since it reduces not only the tables and the chairs, but other people, to my own personal "percepts". (Whatever a 'percept' is supposed to be.) When I argue with you, I don't imagine that I'm just arguing with voices in my own head (if I had a head). Intellectual disputes can't be resolved by upping one's meds. (If there were any meds, there isn't any neurochemistry either.)
No, it's not solipsistic. I believe like you in the reality of the world outside my mind, including other people. I'm just not so naive that I would take my percepts to be the real things.
So it's anti-physical science, since it seemingly denies astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology, geology and all the rest, reducing them not just to psychology, but to one individual's psychology (mine). Objectivity disappears and everything is subjective. The problem then is giving any meaning to 'reality' and distinguishing it from madness.
There's nothing anti-science ni what I say. There's as much science in my conception as in yours.
Objectivity doesn't disappear but it is correctly interpreted as a belief, while subjectivity is knowledge. However, what we do, although necessarily based on what we know, it in fact in line with what we believe. If there is a lion, I may know the qualia of the lion percept, but what I will do will be motivated by my belief that there is a dangerous lion rather than qualia.
As I said, little difference.
It transforms me from a biological being in an environmental context into something transcendental, into whatever it is that's aware of my "percepts", but isn't itself included among the percepts. The 'unknown knower'.
Again, nothing transcendental. I have no idea where you find all those terms.
And it doesn't really seem to address the problem of perception. It doesn't explain what a "percept" is, what a 'mind'/'spirit'/'self'/'soul' is, or how the latter 'perceives' the former on the supposed inner TV monitor of phenomenal awareness. It's like trying to account for the origin of reality by appealing to God, as the cosmological theistic arguments do. That just replaces one mystery with an even larger mystery. I don't think that it's helpful to make the same kind of moves with perception.
We don't absolutely need to know the reality as it is. All we need is that there should be a process that results in our existence. Our representation of this process doesn't need to realist. All it needs is that it should help us adapt our actions and behaviour to the world.
Or at least that's your metaphysical belief. I don't share it. I think that there are better (and more realistic) ways of conceiving reality.
It's probably helpful to the rest of us to understand what your metaphysical presuppositions are.
I suppose that if one adopts your idealistic presuppositions, then that move might be easy to make. I don't find it particularly convincing though. You seem to be trying to make room for logic as another sense by redefining sense away from what the vast majority of of us think senses to be.
Yes, well, Copernic did exactly the same thing so I'm perfectly happy not to play the role of the Pope. You do as you please.
EB
 
There's a problem with this sentence. It introduces the notion "as far as we understand what's really going on". What can this possibly mean if awareness of "objects" is in our mind?
Does it refer to what's "really going on", in our mind? Where is that?
Perhaps the sentence underlines the difficulty of abstracting our awareness of the supposed "objects". Are they in our mind, or "out there"? Where then, is "out there"?
I'm not suggesting there is nothing beyond my own mind, merely that what we naively take to be objects of the real world, like an elephant, are in facts objects of our mind. That doesn't preclude that there should be something else beyond our minds that would be the original thing, but something none of us, not even science, knows as such. We see elephants. Science see elementary particles. What there is, who knows?
And I can assure you I lead a perfectly normal like. I go out to buy food, go for a walk, meet friends. Nothing different. Nothing like the end of the world.
EB
 
No. Perception is a mental state. Reception is the actual excitation and processing of external stimuli by the senses, before it turns into perception by our brains.

I'm inclined to think of both of those as different parts of the perception process. Our eyes supply us information about the world around us. Then our brains and cognitive processes try to identify what we are seeing through an elaborate pattern-recognition process.

Mental perception is the brain's "best guess" of what the senses are receiving.

Yes, that's certainly part of it. The end product of perception is often a judgement, something like: "I just saw an elephant!" Certainly when I judge that I saw an elephant, it's a fallible judgement that might conceivably be incorrect. Maybe what I saw wasn't an elephant at all and I misidentified it. In which case I would have to go back to the drawing board, reapply the pattern-recognition task and try once again to identify whatever it is. Or else try to describe whatever it is in more raw-data form: size, shape, color, speed. That involves judgement too, and the description might in turn be mistaken. Perhaps we can say that whenever we try to attach words and concepts to perception, we are introducing the possibility of error.

But, none of this suggests that what I see isn't something really out there in the world, let alone that it's naive to think it was. None of it suggests that what I really saw was a mysterious mental object in my own mind called a "percept" that must be whatever it seems to be and can't be misidentified. That's just bad philosophy in my opinion.
 
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I'm inclined to think of both of those as different parts of the perception process. Our eyes supply us information about the world around us. Then our brains and cognitive processes try to identify what we are seeing through an elaborate pattern-recognition process.
Yes, I struggled with that myself.
I was trying to separate the act of receiving external information with the translation into electro chemical signals, which in turn are converted by the brains to produce a sensory experience or an actual internal holographic image.
 
But, none of this suggests that what I see isn't something really out there in the world
I didn't say there wasn't something out there.
Seeing is essentially our brain using incident light to create a percept, percept which is entirely inside your brain, unlike things supposed to be out there. The only thing you can be conscious of is the percept itself. Science. Since you are conscious of an elephant upon seing an elephant, it can only be that the elephant is nothing but the percept inside your mind. So the elephant you see is nothing but the way your brain represents to you the something which is out there. Nothing Platonic or transcendental about that. Just science and common sense. And a few elephants.
EB
 
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