Evil Indian/Hindu Caste System

And more....this focuses on "Dalit Muslims"
The 'Dalit Muslims': Who Are They?

Most Indian Muslims are descendants of ' untouchable and 'low' caste converts, with only a small minority tracing their origins to Arab, Iranian and Central Asian settlers and invaders. Although the Qur’an is fiercely egalitarian in its social ethics, Indian Muslim society is characterised by numerous caste-like features, consisting of several caste-like groups (jatis). Muslims who claim foreign descent claim a superior status for themselves as ashraf or 'noble'. Descendants of indigenous converts are, on the other hand, commonly referred to contemptuously as ajlaf or 'base' or 'lowly'. As among the Hindus, the various jatis among the ajlaf Muslims maintain a strong sense of jati identity. The emergence of democratic politics is, however, bringing about a radical change in the manner in which this sense of identity is articulated. Aware of the importance of numbers in order to acquire political power and the economic benefits that accrue from it, the Dalit movement has sought to establish a wider sense of Dalit identity that transcends inter-caste and inter-religious divisions and differences among the ‘lower’ caste majority. This wider Dalit identity does not seek to deny individual jati identities. Rather, it takes them into account but seeks to subsume them within the wider collective Dalit identity, based on a common history of suffering as well as common racial origins as indigenous people. This seems to have been a crucial factor in the emergence of a specific 'Dalit Muslim' identity that the AIBMM seeks to articulate. 'Lower' caste Muslim ideologues and activists in the AIBMM are now in the process of fashioning a new 'Dalit Muslim' identity, seeking to bring all the 'lower' caste Muslims under one umbrella, defined by their common identity as Muslim as well as Dalit.

The All-India Backward Muslim Morcha

The AIBMM was set up in 1994 by Ejaz Ali, a young Muslim medical doctor from Patna, capital of the eastern state of Bihar, belonging to the Kunjera caste of Muslim vegetable-sellers. Bihar, India's poorest state, is notorious for its acute caste problem and for its frequent anti-Dalit pogroms. Consequently, the Dalits in Bihar have been among the first to take to militant forms of struggle. The Muslims of Bihar, who form over fifteen per cent of the state's population, are also characterised by sharp caste divisions. The plight of Bihar's Dalit Muslims, whom the AIBMM estimates at forming almost ninety per cent of the state's Muslim population and consisting of twenty-nine different caste groups, is particularly pathetic. 1 Most Bihari Dalit Muslims work as daily wage labourers, manual workers, artisans and petty peasants, barely managing to eke out an existence.

According to Ali, the plight of the overwhelming majority of the Muslims of Bihar, as well as an acute awareness of the limitations of the traditional Muslim leadership, suggested to him the need for the establishment of the AIBMM to struggle for the rights of the Dalit Muslims. He regards the destruction of the Babri mosque at Ayodhya in 1992 as a landmark event in this regard, seeing the traditional, and largely 'upper' caste, Muslim leadership as having only further complicated matters by playing into the hands of Hindu militants and as 'misleading' the Muslim masses for their own petty gains.

In less than a decade of its founding, by early 2001 the AIBMM had emerged as an umbrella group of over forty organisations claiming to represent various different Dalit Muslim castes. It now has branches in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, West Bengal, Delhi, Rajasthan and Maharashtra, in addition to Bihar, where it has its headquarters.

Aims and Objectives of the AIBMM:
The foremost priority for the AIBMM is to get recognition from the Indian state for the over 100 million 'Dalit Muslims' as Scheduled Castes so that they can avail of the same benefits that the Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist Scheduled castes enjoy, including reserved government jobs, reserved seats in state legislatures and in the Indian Parliament, special courts to try cases of atrocities against them as well as social and economic development programmes meant specially for them. According to Indian law as it stands at present, only those Dalits who claim to be Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists can be considered to be members of the Scheduled Castes and thereby eligible for the special benefits that the state has made available to these castes. The AIBMM sees this as violating the basic secular character of the Indian Constitution. It insists that its demand for Scheduled Caste status for 'Dalit Muslims' is fully in consonance with the spirit of the Indian Constitution. Recognising the fact that demands for special legal status for Muslims have been viewed in the past as 'separatist' and 'anti-national' and even ‘pro-Pakistan’, the AIBMM is careful to project its demands as aimed at integrating the 'Dalit Muslim' into the 'national mainstream' by enabling them to progress economically and socially, along with other deprived sections of the Indian population. Besides being considered 'anti-secular', the law as it stands today is also condemned by the AIBMM as a gross violation of human rights. Furthermore,it is seen as a ploy to keep the more than one hundred million Dalit Muslims in perpetual thraldom, a conspiracy in which both the Hindu as well as Muslim 'upper' caste elite are seen as being involved. Because they have been denied Scheduled Caste status and the benefits that accrue from such status, the Dalit Muslims are said to lag far behind the Hindu Dalits, who have been able to make considerable progress in all fields because of the special facilities that the state has provided for them.

A New Indian Muslim Leadership and Changing Discourse of Community Identity:

The AIBMM prides itself in having coined the term 'Dalit Muslims', and in this it seeks to radically refashion notions of Muslim community identity. Deconstructing the notion of Muslims as a homogenous bloc, it brings to the fore the existence of caste distinctions among the Indian Muslims, which it sees as one of the primary and defining features of Indian Muslim society.

In articulating a separate Dalit Muslim identity it finds itself at odds with the traditional, largely 'high' caste Muslim leadership, which, in seeking to speak for all Muslims, sees the question of caste that the AIBMM so stridently stresses as divisive. Leading Muslim spokesmen have, not surprisingly, accused the AIBMM of seeking to create divisions within the Muslim community and of spreading 'casteism', and thus playing into the hands of militant Hindus.Ali sees as Islam as having historically played a key role in the emancipation of the Dalits, a role which, he says, was gradually watered down over time. Islam spread in India principally through the agency of the Sufis, he says, whose teachings of love and social equality attracted many Dalits to the new faith, shackled as they were by the chains of the caste system and the Brahminical religion. 7 It was not by the sword but through the love and compassion that the Sufis exhibited in their behaviour towards the poor, principally the Dalits, that large numbers of Hindus converted to Islam. With the establishment of Muslim political power in various parts of India, however, he says, this radical egalitarianism of the early Sufis gave way to more institutionalised forms of religious expression. 'High' caste Hindus, in order to save their properties or to secure high positions in Muslim-ruled territories, converted to Islam, bringing with them notions of caste superiority that are foreign to pristine Islam. Doctrines were developed that sought to legitimise caste inequalities by suitably misinterpreting the Qur'an. Gradually, he says, the 'spirit of Islam' was replaced by the 'rituals of Islam'.

Getting a bit more complext isnt it duendy??? Life isnt black and white you know...not all Muslims are suicide bombers and not all Dalits are Hindu......

I'l have a post on the way Christian Dalits are being treated by the Christian community later....it's a lovely day and I'm going to sun myself...untill then.....peace!!! :cool:
 
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samcdkey said:
Aaaheeemmmm!

Simplistic

Adjective

1. Unrealistically simple. (Webster's)

as in looking at the caste system without the context in which it exists

I'm a nit picker :p !!
- So am I, and there's nothing unrealistic about my post :p
 
The caste system owes its heritage to divisions of occupation or varna - varna is described in the vedas as symptomised by guna (quality) and karma (activity) as opposed to janma (birth) - its not that the caste system is wrong - its that a caste system based upon birth, as opposed to quality and activity is wrong
 
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We weren't really disagreeing, I was just being captious :p

Seriously, though: The caste system still exists, and imo it shouldn't.
 
I don't know said:
We weren't really disagreeing, I was just being captious :p

Seriously, though: The caste system still exists, and imo it shouldn't.


Yes of course; but if you explore the modern day casteism, you'll discover it has more to do with economic exploitation and the reservation system utilized by the Indian government to help with the "upliftment of the downtrodden" which has conferred benefits on "lower caste" people. This is viewed with resentment by those "upper caste" people who inspite of better education or merit find themselves on the fringes of an uncertain job market. The resultant resentments are of course expressed through caste wars. If you work in a private company, however, where merit is more important, such "casteism" is rarely encountered. In many cases, even where there is no casteism it is viewed as such by individuals who may feel defensive about their position. e.g. I know an instance of an airline pilot who got into a national airline through the scheduled caste reservation. He continually did poorly at his simulations and needed many trials in order to clear the grade. Honestly, would you want someone like that flying you across the Atlantic? When other pilots protested against his clearing the grade, that pilot claimed he was being discriminated against.

Its a very complex issue; I don't doubt that there are rural pockets in India where the caste system is a way of life, but such individuals also follow the village form of government and are less likely to go up in arms against each other. There may be economic exploitation but it is related more to the educational shortcomings than to the "evils" of the caste system.
 
But not all men fry in their hormones

A brahmana is supposed to be qualified by samo, damas, tapah, saucam etc, peacefulness, self control, austerity, cleanliness etc

This is the distinction between one class of person and another
 
Xerxes:If we try to force India out of the caste system, it will destroy their culture. What India really needs is a slow evolution of their values, not to become a mirror image of the we

I think India is already on the road towards change and its happening internally among their intellectuals, writers, artists and politicians. The caste system is very strong and difficult to break so of course the change will be slow. Its not easy for a caste conscious person to accept an untouchable as an equal. Now personally I think the reincarnation nonsense is a convenient ruse used to ensure wealth and access to education stays within a particular group. Since all brahmins are definitely not 'white' nor 'aryan' I wouldn't say its equivalent is racism but more a form of classism. Anyway even though there has been access given to untouchables so they can enter university and perhaps will eventually secure a financial base I don't think they will ever be thought well of by other Hindus. Christian Indians love the untouchables and vice verse because it rids them of the caste thing. How can one be an untouchable if one is no longer Hindu? Nevertheless it hasn't changed how they are perceived. I do agree with you on one note, since there is enough of a debate among Hindu's about this issue its really their business and not ours. I mean what are we supposed to do air drop pamphlets? Making caste illegal won't change the culture.
 
Lucysnow said:
Xerxes:If we try to force India out of the caste system, it will destroy their culture. What India really needs is a slow evolution of their values, not to become a mirror image of the we

I think India is already on the road towards change and its happening internally among their intellectuals, writers, artists and politicians. The caste system is very strong and difficult to break so of course the change will be slow. Its not easy for a caste conscious person to accept an untouchable as an equal. Now personally I think the reincarnation nonsense is a convenient ruse used to ensure wealth and access to education stays within a particular group. Since all brahmins are definitely not 'white' nor 'aryan' I wouldn't say its equivalent is racism but more a form of classism. Anyway even though there has been access given to untouchables so they can enter university and perhaps will eventually secure a financial base I don't think they will ever be thought well of by other Hindus. Christian Indians love the untouchables and vice verse because it rids them of the caste thing. How can one be an untouchable if one is no longer Hindu? Nevertheless it hasn't changed how they are perceived. I do agree with you on one note, since there is enough of a debate among Hindu's about this issue its really their business and not ours. I mean what are we supposed to do air drop pamphlets? Making caste illegal won't change the culture.

Actually all societies have a caste system - in other words all societies have an intelligent class (brahmana) martial class (ksatriya) mercantile class (vaisya) and labourer class (sudra) - the solution is not to abolish a caste system but to have a properly functioning one - for instance if you try to artificially raise evryone to the platform of a brahmana there will be chaos and if you try to artifically bring everyone down to the platform of a sudra (like communism) it will also fail. Birth can indicate a propensity for a class designation (like the son of a high court judge has an increased potential to become a high court judge) but ultimately one looks at qualification (the son of a high court judge doesn't actually become a high court judge until he is properly qualified).

Otherwise if you run around trying to bring the lowest person to the highest position or the highest person to the lowest position you disturb the natural order of things and are just operating on the same principle general principle, namely birth as an indication of what one deserves / doesn't deserve in life- even the hindu scriptures clearly state that it is quality (guna) and activity (karma) that establishes social designation (varna) as opposed to birth (janma)
 
All societies don't design their caste system from an idea of predestination through birth into a certain caste. In other words one sibling from the same family can decide to become a doctor because he not only desires the profession but has the intellectual capacity to reach the goal. His brother becomes a fireman because he has always liked fireman. The other brother becomes a wanderer doing this and that until he finds his own way. Very different than using a myth to decide the fate of others (but you wouldnt know better would you).

The caste system in India is a social construct designed to keep wealth, education and access within strict social lines but that doesnt make it right and it certainly wasnt dictated by the divine. In any case this issue has been on the minds of India's intelligencia for a long time and in time this too shall alter itself.

Hey why don't you answer the questions posted in the veggie section?
 
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lightgigantic said:
you disturb the natural order of things
Time-honoured phrase used by the wealthy and the powerful throughout history to keep those insolent, huddled masses in their proper place.
 
redarmy11 said:
Time-honoured phrase used by the wealthy and the powerful throughout history to keep those insolent, huddled masses in their proper place.

Well put a fitter and turner in the position of the president, put the the president in the position of a ballet dance, put a ballet dancer in charge of a multi billion dollar supermarket chain, and put a multi billion dollar supermarket chain manager in the position of a fitter and turner and see if the picture doesn't equal to something like a disturbance of the natural order of things.
 
Lucysnow said:
All societies don't design their caste system from an idea of predestination through birth into a certain caste.

Neither does india - my point was that the system has been corrupted by the notion of birth as an automatic qualification when the scriptures declare it is more a case of quality and activity.

Lucysnow said:
In other words one sibling from the same family can decide to become a doctor because he not only desires the profession but has the intellectual capacity to reach the goal.

I agree, vedic scrpture also states the same thing - intellectual capacity means guna, quality

Lucysnow said:
His brother becomes a fireman because he has always liked fireman. The other brother becomes a wanderer doing this and that until he finds his own way.

This is all quality and activity

Lucysnow said:
Very different than using a myth to decide the fate of others (but you wouldnt know better would you).

I don't see what you are contending - my previou s post is in complete alignment with yours - maybe I didn't explain it properly (its my weakness as an academic to sometimes render simple concepts incomprehensible :p )

Lucysnow said:
The caste system in India is a social construct designed to keep wealth, education and access within strict social lines but that doesnt make it right and it certainly wasnt dictated by the divine. In any case this issue has been on the minds of India's intelligencia for a long time and in time this too shall alter itself.

If a person is not qualified, whether they take birth in a high or low family - you don't solve the problem of social chaos by reserving positions for people of low birth just as you don't solve the problem by reserving them for people of high birth - you solve the problem by reserving them for qualified persons - now a person who takes birth in a high family may start out with an advantage (if their father is a high court judge they may more readily absorb the position of a high courst judge) but that is not an automatic qualification - it as opportunity to develop the right qualifications - but after al is said and done in the way of birth you are left with the examination of a persons qualification which stands independent of their birth as either low or high.

Lucysnow said:
Hey why don't you answer the questions posted in the veggie section?

I'm getting there - please be patient its been a busy day :D
 
lightgigantic said:
Well put a fitter and turner in the position of the president, put the the president in the position of a ballet dance, put a ballet dancer in charge of a multi billion dollar supermarket chain, and put a multi billion dollar supermarket chain manager in the position of a fitter and turner and see if the picture doesn't equal to something like a disturbance of the natural order of things.
So actors, for instance, should forget about any idea of ever becoming president (hmmm.. well, actually..)? You underestimate our adaptability.
 
If you are in agreement then we agree but I didn't pick that up in your post perhaps because you use religious text to explain your beliefs instead of just expalining your personal point of view.

LG: If a person is not qualified, whether they take birth in a high or low family - you don't solve the problem of social chaos by reserving positions for people of low birth just as you don't solve the problem by reserving them for people of high birth - you solve the problem by reserving them for qualified persons -

I agee up to a point. The methods used in India are the same as affirmative action in the States-you know the idea of reserving positions for minorities. Well affirmative action worked, it did give people access the trouble is knowing when those measures are no longer necessary. I am not sure if its no longer necessary in India.
 
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