Evil Indian/Hindu Caste System

However, I have too often seen people ignore the plight of others because "they deserve it." Smart loving people seeing a frustrated and frightened person acting out, and instead of understanding thier fear, they brush off the entire matter - "that person is getting wwhat they earned for themselves."



I have seen people argue tht the sick, disabled, and drepressed are in those situations because of thier own doing, and are thus not worthy of compassion or help.

That to me killed the usefullness of the concept - the easy with which the idea of karmic guilt can be mutilated into such views means that while it isn't a bad idea, it's not the best idea for practical reasons IMO.

Without this concept that god is actually dealing the effects of one's previous activities one will be in th eillusion that one can benefit another on the strength of their piety or something -

If people label someone's situation "as their bad karma" as a means for neglecting their duties towards them, then they get bad karma - heaps of incidents like that - like a sage was laughing at a street urchin getting slapped for begging from a rich man - the street urchin was the rich man's father (go figure how charitable he was in his previous life)
Another one is how a grandchild was swinging his grandfather by the tail in the form of a mouse
Like this there are many incidents - therefore it is common in places like india, at least by persons who are familiar with this knowledge, to be very mindful of their duty
 
Student of Yoga said:
I am a believer in Mahatma Gandhi. Therefore i am obviously the solution. I have joined an organisation called RSS (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh) in which all hindus (irrespective of caste) are allowed to join. We generally believe in the inspiration of new generation heroes and we wish to make hindus more knowledgable about hinduism and bring unity within hindus of different sects. This can hardly work if members of different castes refuse to work together in friendship and harmony, can it now?


Caste=Race
 
damadamaa said:
i see many apologists for the hindu caste system here. its a typical response of caste hindus to straight away lie that caste does not exist any more or its just a division of labor. Caste system was not a thing of the past, its as alive and racist as it had ever been. Untouchables who are now called dalits (about quarter of india's population which means 250 million) still live a distance away from caste villages. In many villages their women are not allowed to wear sarees below their ankles (only caste hindus can), there are separate tumblers for dalits at tea shops, they are not allowed to draw water from village wells, they are not allowed to walk through the village roads (they have to take a deroute), they are not allowe to vote in elections (so much for indian democracy), their women are raped and killed on a regular basis, any resistance by the dalits would result in social boycotts, destruction of property and burning of houses and murder. Brahminism or Hinduism (the term british used) is the philosophical basis for all this oppression perpetuated against the dalits and other lower castes. Hindus cant help themselves, castiesm is the core of hinduism, to be castiest is to be a hindu. Brahmanical texts like manusmrithi (the laws of Manu the brahmin law giver), bhagavatgita etc. prescribe, perpetuate and justify hindu racism by invoking doctrines like karma and samsara (rebirth). Without caste hinduism would implode like the twin towers. Caste system is essentially a hindu thing and castiesm is nothing but the hindu version of racism. I am a dalit, i lived in england and america, i can say without hesitation hindus are the worst racists and hinduism is the worst form of racism.
please read Kancha Ilaiah book, 'Why i am not a hindu' and his interview 'Challenging Brahminical Fascism' http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-ilaiah050304.htm

I am posting some links as a primer to caste.
www.ambedkar.org (Dr. Ambedkar was a dalit hero who differed with the hindu nationalist gandhi on many issues)
www.dalitvoice.org (news and views about dalits)
www.dalitstan.org (for books and views about dalits and brahminism)
www.countercurrents.org/dalit.htm (very good articles on dalit issues)
www.outlookindia.com (search for articles about dalits and check out the forum)
There is no direct support of a repressive caste system anywhere in Hindu(and you are wrong it was the Greeks and Persians that coined that phrase, the British just appropriated it) scripture. And if it was just a problem in Hinduism, then why hasnt EVERY Dalit converted....why? Because it's indemic IN ALL OF INDIAN SOCIETY.....this is why you live in England!

PM me I know some Brahmins in England that would welcome you into their home.
 
Right just to illustrate my point that the caste system is indemic to the whole of Indian culture and not just Hindus...I've quoted this before and it was ignored therefore here it is again.. :eek: ...I'll cull some equivilant info from Chritian and Buddhist converts when I have time (I have another post to put up on this subject first)

Soooooo here we go again.

The 'Dalit Muslims': Who Are They?

Most Indian Muslims are descendants of ' untouchable and 'low' caste converts, with only a small minority tracing their origins to Arab, Iranian and Central Asian settlers and invaders. Although the Qur’an is fiercely egalitarian in its social ethics, Indian Muslim society is characterised by numerous caste-like features, consisting of several caste-like groups (jatis). Muslims who claim foreign descent claim a superior status for themselves as ashraf or 'noble'. Descendants of indigenous converts are, on the other hand, commonly referred to contemptuously as ajlaf or 'base' or 'lowly'. As among the Hindus, the various jatis among the ajlaf Muslims maintain a strong sense of jati identity. The emergence of democratic politics is, however, bringing about a radical change in the manner in which this sense of identity is articulated. Aware of the importance of numbers in order to acquire political power and the economic benefits that accrue from it, the Dalit movement has sought to establish a wider sense of Dalit identity that transcends inter-caste and inter-religious divisions and differences among the ‘lower’ caste majority. This wider Dalit identity does not seek to deny individual jati identities. Rather, it takes them into account but seeks to subsume them within the wider collective Dalit identity, based on a common history of suffering as well as common racial origins as indigenous people. This seems to have been a crucial factor in the emergence of a specific 'Dalit Muslim' identity that the AIBMM seeks to articulate. 'Lower' caste Muslim ideologues and activists in the AIBMM are now in the process of fashioning a new 'Dalit Muslim' identity, seeking to bring all the 'lower' caste Muslims under one umbrella, defined by their common identity as Muslim as well as Dalit.

The All-India Backward Muslim Morcha

The AIBMM was set up in 1994 by Ejaz Ali, a young Muslim medical doctor from Patna, capital of the eastern state of Bihar, belonging to the Kunjera caste of Muslim vegetable-sellers. Bihar, India's poorest state, is notorious for its acute caste problem and for its frequent anti-Dalit pogroms. Consequently, the Dalits in Bihar have been among the first to take to militant forms of struggle. The Muslims of Bihar, who form over fifteen per cent of the state's population, are also characterised by sharp caste divisions. The plight of Bihar's Dalit Muslims, whom the AIBMM estimates at forming almost ninety per cent of the state's Muslim population and consisting of twenty-nine different caste groups, is particularly pathetic. 1 Most Bihari Dalit Muslims work as daily wage labourers, manual workers, artisans and petty peasants, barely managing to eke out an existence.
According to Ali, the plight of the overwhelming majority of the Muslims of Bihar, as well as an acute awareness of the limitations of the traditional Muslim leadership, suggested to him the need for the establishment of the AIBMM to struggle for the rights of the Dalit Muslims. He regards the destruction of the Babri mosque at Ayodhya in 1992 as a landmark event in this regard, seeing the traditional, and largely 'upper' caste, Muslim leadership as having only further complicated matters by playing into the hands of Hindu militants and as 'misleading' the Muslim masses for their own petty gains.

In less than a decade of its founding, by early 2001 the AIBMM had emerged as an umbrella group of over forty organisations claiming to represent various different Dalit Muslim castes. It now has branches in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, West Bengal, Delhi, Rajasthan and Maharashtra, in addition to Bihar, where it has its headquarters.
Aims and Objectives of the AIBMM:
The foremost priority for the AIBMM is to get recognition from the Indian state for the over 100 million 'Dalit Muslims' as Scheduled Castes so that they can avail of the same benefits that the Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist Scheduled castes enjoy, including reserved government jobs, reserved seats in state legislatures and in the Indian Parliament, special courts to try cases of atrocities against them as well as social and economic development programmes meant specially for them. According to Indian law as it stands at present, only those Dalits who claim to be Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists can be considered to be members of the Scheduled Castes and thereby eligible for the special benefits that the state has made available to these castes. The AIBMM sees this as violating the basic secular character of the Indian Constitution. It insists that its demand for Scheduled Caste status for 'Dalit Muslims' is fully in consonance with the spirit of the Indian Constitution. Recognising the fact that demands for special legal status for Muslims have been viewed in the past as 'separatist' and 'anti-national' and even ‘pro-Pakistan’, the AIBMM is careful to project its demands as aimed at integrating the 'Dalit Muslim' into the 'national mainstream' by enabling them to progress economically and socially, along with other deprived sections of the Indian population. Besides being considered 'anti-secular', the law as it stands today is also condemned by the AIBMM as a gross violation of human rights. Furthermore,it is seen as a ploy to keep the more than one hundred million Dalit Muslims in perpetual thraldom, a conspiracy in which both the Hindu as well as Muslim 'upper' caste elite are seen as being involved. Because they have been denied Scheduled Caste status and the benefits that accrue from such status, the Dalit Muslims are said to lag far behind the Hindu Dalits, who have been able to make considerable progress in all fields because of the special facilities that the state has provided for them.

A New Indian Muslim Leadership and Changing Discourse of Community Identity:

The AIBMM prides itself in having coined the term 'Dalit Muslims', and in this it seeks to radically refashion notions of Muslim community identity. Deconstructing the notion of Muslims as a homogenous bloc, it brings to the fore the existence of caste distinctions among the Indian Muslims, which it sees as one of the primary and defining features of Indian Muslim society.

In articulating a separate Dalit Muslim identity it finds itself at odds with the traditional, largely 'high' caste Muslim leadership, which, in seeking to speak for all Muslims, sees the question of caste that the AIBMM so stridently stresses as divisive. Leading Muslim spokesmen have, not surprisingly, accused the AIBMM of seeking to create divisions within the Muslim community and of spreading 'casteism', and thus playing into the hands of militant Hindus.Ali sees as Islam as having historically played a key role in the emancipation of the Dalits, a role which, he says, was gradually watered down over time. Islam spread in India principally through the agency of the Sufis, he says, whose teachings of love and social equality attracted many Dalits to the new faith, shackled as they were by the chains of the caste system and the Brahminical religion. 7 It was not by the sword but through the love and compassion that the Sufis exhibited in their behaviour towards the poor, principally the Dalits, that large numbers of Hindus converted to Islam. With the establishment of Muslim political power in various parts of India, however, he says, this radical egalitarianism of the early Sufis gave way to more institutionalised forms of religious expression. 'High' caste Hindus, in order to save their properties or to secure high positions in Muslim-ruled territories, converted to Islam, bringing with them notions of caste superiority that are foreign to pristine Islam. Doctrines were developed that sought to legitimise caste inequalities by suitably misinterpreting the Qur'an. Gradually, he says, the 'spirit of Islam' was replaced by the 'rituals of Islam'.

You see by branding caste as an integrale part of Hinduism ONLY you are doing a diservice to your own people....
More to come......Peace.
 
in vedas caste started merely as the classification of a 'chosen' profession. there were no natural progressions involved. one had to qualify to be engaging in a specific and skillfull profession.
caste came to be cast in concrete after the first islamic invasion of india when invading muslim forces found it convenient to work upon caste to create divisions amongst hindus. apart from divide and rule this also made easy targets for conversions. and that is how caste came into being in a strong way in india during the last 1000 yrs of foriegn rule out of which 800 yrs muslim and 200 yrs christian.
 
streetboy

in vedas caste started merely as the classification of a 'chosen' profession. there were no natural progressions involved. one had to qualify to be engaging in a specific and skillfull profession.

Actually that is how the caste system started from varnasram - no mention of what you are declaring in the veda - varnasram is all karma an guna - one's station in life is determined by one's quality and the work one does - just like a doctor is qualified by his medical prowess etc, not his birth

caste came to be cast in concrete after the first islamic invasion of india when invading muslim forces found it convenient to work upon caste to create divisions amongst hindus.
They were able to do it because the brahmins were not qualified
 
many brahmins are now employed as sweepers and toilet cleaners. what caste shall we put them into? don't they deserve reservations?
 
streetboy said:
many brahmins are now employed as sweepers and toilet cleaners. what caste shall we put them into? don't they deserve reservations?

In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power.

SB 12.2.3: Men and women will live together merely because of superficial attraction, and success in business will depend on deceit. Womanliness and manliness will be judged according to one's expertise in sex, and a man will be known as a brāhmaṇa just by his wearing a thread.

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

SB 12.2.5: A person will be judged unholy if he does not have money, and hypocrisy will be accepted as virtue. Marriage will be arranged simply by verbal agreement, and a person will think he is fit to appear in public if he has merely taken a bath.

SB 12.2.6: A sacred place will be taken to consist of no more than a reservoir of water located at a distance, and beauty will be thought to depend on one's hairstyle. Filling the belly will become the goal of life, and one who is audacious will be accepted as truthful. He who can maintain a family will be regarded as an expert man, and the principles of religion will be observed only for the sake of reputation.
-Kali yuga Brahmin I guess
 
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samcdkey said:
Are we into Kaliyuga LG?

What do the Vedas say about that?

I guess we must be - sounds familiar doesn't it?

:p

The vedas explain how there are universal seasons (4 make up about 4 million years) - so there is the equivelant of spring and the gradual decay through to winter, and then back to spring. - its cyclic like the seasons, with 1000 such cycles making up a manu and 14 such manus making up one day of brahma and 365 x 100 of such days making up the life expectancy of one material universe - anyway that makes quite a few kali yugas

So the vedas have many things to say about kali yuga - some from previous kali yugas and some from this kali yuga to come - there is one interesting conversation between Maharaj Yuddhistira and Markendaya rsi (a sage who got the benediction to live through many universal devastations and thus experience numerous kali yugas) - the king is a bit worried because kali yuga is just about to approach and the sage replies to the effect "Don't worry - every kali yuga is the same" -

By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varṇāśrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. The kings will mostly be thieves, the occupations of men will be stealing, lying and needless violence, and all the social classes will be reduced to the lowest level of śūdras. Cows will be like goats, spiritual hermitages will be no different from mundane houses, and family ties will extend no further than the immediate bonds of marriage. Most plants and herbs will be tiny, and all trees will appear like dwarf śamī trees. Clouds will be full of lightning, homes will be devoid of piety, and all human beings will have become like asses. At that time, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will appear on the earth. Acting with the power of pure spiritual goodness, He will rescue eternal religion.

kind of gloom and doom stuff - but then winter tends to appear like that
 
samcdkey said:
Are we into Kaliyuga LG?

What do the Vedas say about that?
According to the Islamic Bahia faith it ended in 1844, however it's thought by most we are in the End Times now before the rebirth of the Universe.
 
redindica said:
According to the Islamic Bahia faith it ended in 1844, however it's thought by most we are in the End Times now before the rebirth of the Universe.

What is the Islamic Bahia faith?
 
samcdkey said:
What is the Islamic Bahia faith?
My fault should read Baha'i (bahia is a Brazillian state! lol)

Founded by Bahá'u'lláh

Bahá'u'lláh (ba-haa-ol-laa Arabic: بهاء الله‎ ​ "Glory of God") (1817 - 1892), born Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí (Persian: میرزا حسین علی‎ ​), was the founder and prophet of the Bahá'í Faith.

He claimed to fulfill the Bábí prophecy of "He whom God shall make manifest" (Arabic: من یظهر الله‎ ​, Persian: مظهر کلّیه الهی‎ ​), but in a broader sense he also claimed to be the "supreme Manifestation of God"[1], referring to the fulfillment of the eschatological expectations of a prophetic cycle beginning with Adam, and including Abrahamic religions, as well as Zoroastrianism, the great Dharmic religions, and others. Bahá'ís see Bahá'u'lláh as the initiator of a new religion, as Jesus or Muhammad — but also the initiator of a new cycle, like that attributed to Adam.

Bahá'u'lláh authored many religious works, most notably the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and the Kitáb-i-Íqán. He died in Bahjí, Palestine, present day Israel, and is buried there.

More on the Baha'i Faith from wiki (as is the above).

Bahá'í Faith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article refers to the generally-recognized global Bahá'í community. See disambiguation for others.

Seat of the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel, governing body of the Bahá'ísThe Bahá'í Faith is a religion founded by Bahá'u'lláh in 19th century Persia. Bahá'ís number around 6 million in more than 200 countries around the world.[1][2]

According to Bahá'í teachings, religious history is seen as an evolving educational process for mankind, through God's messengers, which are termed Manifestations of God. Bahá'u'lláh is seen as the most recent, pivotal, but not final of these individuals. He claimed to be the long-expected educator and teacher of all peoples, prophesied in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions, and that his mission was to establish a firm basis for unity throughout the world, and inaugurate an age of peace and justice, which Bahá'ís expect will inevitably arise.[3]

Fundamental to Bahá'í teachings are three core assertions: the oneness of God, the oneness of religion, and the oneness of humanity. These principles have a profound impact on the theological and social teachings of this religion.

"Bahá'í" (Ba-haa-ee or [baˈhaʔi]) is either an adjective referring to this religion or the term for a follower of Bahá'u'lláh, and not a noun referring to the religion as a whole. The term comes from the Arabic word Bahá’ (بهاء), meaning "glory" or "splendor".[4]

Ignore the smilies!! (dont know why they've appeared!)....also it's not "Islamic" what I ment to say was Islam derived...sorry!
 
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redindica said:
According to the Islamic Bahia faith it ended in 1844, however it's thought by most we are in the End Times now before the rebirth of the Universe.

Then the question which naturally arises, apart from the fact that such information is not corroborated in the vedas, is why are we displaying the symptoms of kali yuga increasingly?

Are you trying to say that satya yuga appeared after 1844? How do you explain ww1 ww2 and the madness of the industrial age as sattvic activities?

In the early 1990's the sth Indian brahminical community held what they considered to the last of a complicated month long (that required many brahmanas versed inthe vedas to perform many complicated rituals and recitations simultaneously during the 30 day period) fire yajna for the next 430 000 years (ie the last one for kali yuga) - all the sons of the brahmanas had neglected the family traditions of learning the rites and vedas, having been diverted by career ambitions in IT and law - now the only upholders of such traditions were old men on the verge of death, the last of a generation- for kali yuga to have officially finished in the 1800's it still seems to be dragging on, without any sign of satya yuga on the horizon - in fact if you read the descriptions of kali, you can understand how we have more progress to make in order to complete a picture of worst possible scenario
 
lightgigantic said:
Then the question which naturally arises, apart from the fact that such information is not corroborated in the vedas, is why are we displaying the symptoms of kali yuga increasingly?

Are you trying to say that satya yuga appeared after 1844? How do you explain ww1 ww2 and the madness of the industrial age as sattvic activities?

In the early 1990's the sth Indian brahminical community held what they considered to the last of a complicated month long (that required many brahmanas versed inthe vedas to perform many complicated rituals and recitations simultaneously during the 30 day period) fire yajna for the next 430 000 years (ie the last one for kali yuga) - all the sons of the brahmanas had neglected the family traditions of learning the rites and vedas, having been diverted by career ambitions in IT and law - now the only upholders of such traditions were old men on the verge of death, the last of a generation- for kali yuga to have officially finished in the 1800's it still seems to be dragging on, without any sign of satya yuga on the horizon - in fact if you read the descriptions of kali, you can understand how we have more progress to make in order to complete a picture of worst possible scenario

Well you know all the technological innovations and stuff started around the late 1800s...the world we live in now is unlike any other time period ever in history....like a completely different world compared to the Dark Ages without electricity, cars, etc...never has the world been like this
 
lightgigantic said:
Then the question which naturally arises, apart from the fact that such information is not corroborated in the vedas, is why are we displaying the symptoms of kali yuga increasingly?

Are you trying to say that satya yuga appeared after 1844? How do you explain ww1 ww2 and the madness of the industrial age as sattvic activities?

In the early 1990's the sth Indian brahminical community held what they considered to the last of a complicated month long (that required many brahmanas versed inthe vedas to perform many complicated rituals and recitations simultaneously during the 30 day period) fire yajna for the next 430 000 years (ie the last one for kali yuga) - all the sons of the brahmanas had neglected the family traditions of learning the rites and vedas, having been diverted by career ambitions in IT and law - now the only upholders of such traditions were old men on the verge of death, the last of a generation- for kali yuga to have officially finished in the 1800's it still seems to be dragging on, without any sign of satya yuga on the horizon - in fact if you read the descriptions of kali, you can understand how we have more progress to make in order to complete a picture of worst possible scenario
I'm not Baha'i so I'll not answer on their behalf (just making the point that there's one faith that belives it has happened). But you make some vital points. There are some astoundingly accurate accounts of the trust of society in the Kaliyuga....I'm a rationalist, but do sometimes wonder if it's all true.
 
VitalOne said:
Well you know all the technological innovations and stuff started around the late 1800s...the world we live in now is unlike any other time period ever in history....like a completely different world compared to the Dark Ages without electricity, cars, etc...never has the world been like this

The dark ages is still kali -yuga - and given that the puranic time cycle is quite vast its quite difficult for us to determine what history was actually like -

To say the least satya yuga is vastly different than having a few mod cons - actually at the moment we are not materially advanced - we are advanced only in exploitation (symptomatic of kali) - like for instance its not like the quality of our food has increased, nor has the quality of our water or air - in fact given that the prediction by WHO is that the biggest health problem to face humanity in the next 50 years will be mental illness its doubtful that even our lives are better - and given the descriptions of the life expectancy of previous yugas one can undersatnd that even duration of life has diminished.

All we have increased facility for at the moment is the fulfillment of animal propensities - sleeping eating mating and defending - a dog runs on four legs and we run on four wheels for the same purposes
 
redindica said:
I'm not Baha'i so I'll not answer on their behalf (just making the point that there's one faith that belives it has happened). But you make some vital points. There are some astoundingly accurate accounts of the trust of society in the Kaliyuga....I'm a rationalist, but do sometimes wonder if it's all true.

I am not contesting what they believe - I am contesting that their beliefs are not backed up by vedic statements- in fact practically the whole of the Ba Hai faith is like that - they have a vision for world peace and altruism but they have no in depth scriptural knowledge - if you visit one of their temples or hear one of their discourses they will hardly be mention of any scriptural quote beyond mere superficiality
 
Lightgigantic: in fact given that the prediction by WHO is that the biggest health problem to face humanity in the next 50 years will be mental illness

Referrences please. I know many who actually work for WHO in real time not in imagination or second hand reference I would like to see your bases and points of knowledge; meaning which report and from whom.
 
Lucysnow said:
Lightgigantic: in fact given that the prediction by WHO is that the biggest health problem to face humanity in the next 50 years will be mental illness

Referrences please. I know many who actually work for WHO in real time not in imagination or second hand reference I would like to see your bases and points of knowledge; meaning which report and from whom.

I heard it from a who spokesperson at a conference once - although it might have been 20 or 30 years instead of fifty - also I recall an advertising campaign for mental health awareness week several years ago that said the same thing - here is one link I found in 30 seconds
http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache...df+who+mental+illnes&hl=en&gl=in&ct=clnk&cd=6
I am sure you can find more if you want
 
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