I've pointed it out three times in the last several minutes, including in the very post you just responded to.
Why won't you answer a simple question?
Is white culture amply represented in US school cirricula, or not?
Equal Time for White People
- Thread starter Saven
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I've pointed it out three times in the last several minutes, including in the very post you just responded to.
Why won't you answer a simple question?
Is white culture amply represented in US school cirricula, or not?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I have answered the last question in my posts on more than one post. You claim that I have agreed with the OP by saying white culture is under-represented in school, something he didn't even say. Now I am asking you to link to the post where you assert I have said such a thing.
And yet, you have continued to endorse exactly the opposite supposition, when it comes from the OP. Hence the requests for clarification.
You could, again, just answer the question and be done with it. Why spend 20 posts trying to blow smoke up my ass, unless you don't like the implications of your answer?
He explicitly says exactly that. That is the entire basis of his argument against representation of non-white culture in school cirricula. Just look at the thread title, fer chrissakes.
If you think that white culture is amply represented in school cirricula, then "equal time for white people" would require the dramatic expansion of non-white representation in the cirricula. And you'd recognize how problematic the OPs premises and conclusions are (supposing, again, that you're actually stupid enough not to be tipped off by the red-text material in the OP to begin with).
And I am refusing. You - and anyone else reading this - know very well what the issue is, and what relevant statements have been made.
Also, you didn't even define what "such a thing" was supposed to have been asserted: I've been asking you, directly, to define your own position for yourself, and you've been avoiding doing so.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Where does he say it in the OP?
Here:
The problem I have with these courses is that they're inherently racist. Anything that caters to and focuses upon a particular racial group is, in the strictest definition of the word, RACIST. That's okay, but let's just call it what it is and stop pretending that these classes are anything else.
Or here:
Since this type of racism is apparently acceptable to our society, I'd like to add my voice to those who have demanded equal time. I'd like to propose that we also offer the following curriculum... on the same college campuses that have been providing the black-oriented curriculum:
Then he makes a mock list and then says this:
"I think we can all imagine the vicious reactions that the above curriculum would incite, amongst various minority groups (blacks in particular). Obviously I'm not serious about having this stuff taught in schools... but there's a point I'm trying to make here. I hope everyone can see it."
Note he says "OBVIOUSLY I am not serious about having this stuff taught in schools"
So where is he saying that whites are under-represented?
I have stated my position so either you have a reading comprehension problem or you simply haven't read them.
Here:
The problem I have with these courses is that they're inherently racist. Anything that caters to and focuses upon a particular racial group is, in the strictest definition of the word, RACIST. That's okay, but let's just call it what it is and stop pretending that these classes are anything else.
Or here:
Since this type of racism is apparently acceptable to our society, I'd like to add my voice to those who have demanded equal time. I'd like to propose that we also offer the following curriculum... on the same college campuses that have been providing the black-oriented curriculum:
Then he makes a mock list and then says this:
"I think we can all imagine the vicious reactions that the above curriculum would incite, amongst various minority groups (blacks in particular). Obviously I'm not serious about having this stuff taught in schools... but there's a point I'm trying to make here. I hope everyone can see it."
Note he says "OBVIOUSLY I am not serious about having this stuff taught in schools"
So where is he saying that whites are under-represented?
I have stated my position so either you have a reading comprehension problem or you simply haven't read them.
Yeah Lucy is right.
The most explicit statement is actually from post #35, the one you keep repeating (apologies for mixing this up with the OP):
"If people think that it's perfectly okay to have so-called "black culture" curriculums offered in our colleges and universities, then I for one would like to demand that equivalent courses in "white culture" be offered at the same time and in the same schools. "
Is it not clear that this statement presupposes that white culture is somehow excluded from cirricula?
If you agree that our schools have long presented little besides white culture, then how can you fail to see the problem here?
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Nope. this is the whole post:
That's not true SAM. They teach a great deal of misinformation in those black pride classes.
They also engage in revisionist history. Black kids are being taught in these classes that white "slave catchers" went into Africa and caught slaves with nets. They don't tell them what really happened: that blacks sold other blacks to white people. I wonder why they don't cover that little gem of a fact during their "Black History Month" too.
*The point is, if racism is wrong or over-representation of one race is wrong, then it's ALWAYS wrong -- regardless of who the perceived victims might be or how noble their goals are. When you cater to a particular race, you are in fact indulging in racism... regardless of who is doing it. If people think that it's perfectly okay to have so-called "black culture" curriculums offered in our colleges and universities, then I for one would like to demand that equivalent courses in "white culture" be offered at the same time and in the same schools. If nobody is willing to offer such courses, then the black-oriented classes need to be shut down and abolished -- on the grounds that they do, in fact, encourage racism and racial bias. That is the solution I would prefer.*
Note the very last paragraph where he sums up his point of view
Minus 50 respect points for nietzschefan.
so this "white" history gives fair and equal time to all euro ethnics? iceaura's peeps? do you promise to stop calling him a rednecked hillbilly? what about the jews? italians? germans?
oh
the irish. those white niggers?
With a few notable exceptions, the study of Irish-America has been biased by a focus on Irish-Americans in urban settings east of the Mississippi, a bias that has resulted in a rather warped interpretation of the whole Irish-American experience. This project is aimed at countering this bias by producing a rigorous and expandable collection of scholarly materials (researched essays, bibliographies, biographies, histories, etc.) that draw their subjects from an electronic collection of rare and out of print Irish-American literary, cultural, and historical texts from the American West. The two principal goals of this project are (A) to bring the wealth of western Irish-American literary and historical writing to the Internet in a scholarly project and (B) to counter the existing bias in Irish-American scholarship, by providing an online collection of primary source material and scholarly articles devoted to exploring the works of western Irish-Americans.
is "white history" just a code for wasp history? anglo american with all other ethnics marginalized?
i think so
other ethnic groups have to fight for their place in this "white history" in order to get a fair and accurate inclusion
hey! paddy!
play fair!
oh
the irish. those white niggers?
With a few notable exceptions, the study of Irish-America has been biased by a focus on Irish-Americans in urban settings east of the Mississippi, a bias that has resulted in a rather warped interpretation of the whole Irish-American experience. This project is aimed at countering this bias by producing a rigorous and expandable collection of scholarly materials (researched essays, bibliographies, biographies, histories, etc.) that draw their subjects from an electronic collection of rare and out of print Irish-American literary, cultural, and historical texts from the American West. The two principal goals of this project are (A) to bring the wealth of western Irish-American literary and historical writing to the Internet in a scholarly project and (B) to counter the existing bias in Irish-American scholarship, by providing an online collection of primary source material and scholarly articles devoted to exploring the works of western Irish-Americans.
is "white history" just a code for wasp history? anglo american with all other ethnics marginalized?
i think so
other ethnic groups have to fight for their place in this "white history" in order to get a fair and accurate inclusion
hey! paddy!
play fair!
Nothing in the remainder of that post refutes anything I've brought up. I'm beginning to think you're genuinely incapable of even phrasing a substantiative response.
Again, he is arguing from the premise that there is no comparable representation of white culture in cirricula - something you claim to disagree with - and his basis for this is blatantly racist suppositions about what goes on in black history classes.
And you claim you can't see the racism, or the inconsistency with your professed beliefs. Unimpressive.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
He is asking why are these groups able to exist at all. He is asking why is it okay to have a black group and not a white group. He is asking why isn't it considered racist to have a group dedicated to blacks or asians. This doesn't make him racist. I responded to his question without assumption of racism. I wonder why people think to bring up this subject makes one racist.
Again you continue to speak of inconsistency without proof. Where in my posts have I pointed to one way of thinking and then offered a different point of view. You made the assertion now prove it with one of my posts.
Again you continue to speak of inconsistency without proof. Where in my posts have I pointed to one way of thinking and then offered a different point of view. You made the assertion now prove it with one of my posts.
Not on it's own, no. But in the context of reality, where there IS a white "group," which has controlled the schools in question and their cirricula since their inceptions, it starts to beg a lot of questions. Like, "why is he ignoring the vast, obvious representation of white culture in these institutions, despite it's central relevance to his argument?"
And, of course, there's all the blatantly racist inventions about what black history cirricula contains, the joy in voicing white supremacist "jokes," etc. to tip you off, if you're really that thick. Which nobody is.
To even pretend that such a person isn't a bigot requires something approaching active compliance with his racist agenda, if not outright participation.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I don't see all that. I read that since there are black groups what is wrong with proposing a white group. He doesn't believe in having any group separated by race is what he is saying.
It looks as if you have poured a whole lot of meaning into something where the meaning doesn't exist.
It looks as if you have poured a whole lot of meaning into something where the meaning doesn't exist.
whites are not white cos they know origins. they know of original tongue, culture. they even retain their names. therefore "white" history breaks down to ethnic histories
irish american studies
german american studies
italian american studies
blacks are blacks cos they do not know origins. they do not know mother tongue, they do not know original names. all they have are fairly similar experiences. for instance, you do not have ibo-american studies, just african/black- american studies
irish american studies
german american studies
italian american studies
blacks are blacks cos they do not know origins. they do not know mother tongue, they do not know original names. all they have are fairly similar experiences. for instance, you do not have ibo-american studies, just african/black- american studies
What's wrong with it is that the verb "proposing" implies that such a group does not, in fact, already exist. It betrays a willfull ignorance of the actual circumstances of race relations as they exist in the school, its cirricula, and its student groups. It serves to create a false supposition of white disenfranchisement that - according to the OPer - can only be redressed by official endorsement of white chauvinism or - the OPer's preferred course - the suppression of all non-white cultures from the cirriculum.
And you don't see how this is racist. Even if I believed you, that would only elevate you to the rank of "useful idiot."
That you claim to see that white culture is amply represented - and so that black studies, etc., do not represent unfair instances of favoritism - suggests that you DO see the racism, which begs the question: if you aren't a racist yourself, why stump for some idiot who pretends that it's unfair to white people to offer black studies cirricula?
And yet he spends his free time looking out for the interests and advancement of his own race group, and inventing false pretexts to suppress any other racial groups, in public institutions no less, including crass demonization of black studies.
Doesn't exactly sound like a post-racial attitude, to me.
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spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
The title of this thread is "equal time for white people". The fact is, it would take a buttload of black studies groups to even approach anything like equality.
Um I believe Saven was. "There is a black culture studies class but no white culture studies class, so that's unfair and all black studies classes should be disbanded for being racist (end paraphrase) which is a semi-legitimate bitch about the system. But since there are white culture classes (that are actually called white culture classes) the claim is not true so he can stop bitching about how unfair life is. Time to find something else to bitch about.
I don't find these classes racist, just specific, not to mention interesting. Not only do they give a different perspective, they introduce new ideas. I've taken several cultural classes from my own race to the roman empire to small tribes only anthropologists care about. I loved all of them.
they are not seperated by anything but subject matter. White students can take African American studies and Asian studies and Native American studies etc... No one is ever banned from a study group either even if it's intent is to help African American students study a white student or a student of any race is always welcome to join.
Well, it's been funny learning how obstinate Lucysnow is.
As for me, I have a dinner date with a beautiful black woman to attend, so I'll leave you all to it.
As for me, I have a dinner date with a beautiful black woman to attend, so I'll leave you all to it.
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