Equal pay for women in sports?

[Seattle]

I'm all for equal pay under the same or similar circumstances for women or for any other group. Recently I've seen more posts about gender lawsuits in women's basketball and women's soccer.

What little I've read of the underlying data doesn't suggest gender discrimination. The WNBA is owned by the NBA and my understanding is that the WNBA is operating at a loss and that the NBA continues to support the WNBA to try to give it time to grow, become mainstream and to become profitable if it's going to happen.

In the case of the WNBA it looks like it's not going to happen.

U.S. Woman's Soccer is very successful within the woman's soccer league but the money it draws in is much less than men's soccer. The percentage that goes to actual woman's soccer players is actually higher than the percentage that goes to men's soccer players but the men players make a lot more.

This doesn't sound like a gender discrimination issue to me. It's a cultural preference and a physical limitations issue. Lebron James makes a whole lot more than the average NBA player. He is a lot more athletic. Men, in general are more athletic than women (you can redefine athletic but you get my point).

The WNBA used to be on TV more and the ratings weren't good. That's why they aren't on TV so much these days and why they aren't profitable. When people don't want to watch any TV program it gets pulled.

I don't understand the basis for a gender discrimination lawsuit in the WNBA and in U.S. Women's Soccer on the grounds of unequal pay.

What am I missing? It's not like they are making a lot of money but the percentage going to women is a lot worse than that going to men so what are the grounds?

 

[wegs]

From what I’ve read, it seems it’s about the principle of not being paid as much as NBA players, but reality needs to set in that they will get paid salaries comparable to men when their games bring in the same advertising dollars, ticket sales, etc. But, to their credit, they put the same effort into their games as the NBA does, despite that they can’t draw the same interest, you know? So, maybe that’s where they’re coming from.

I didn’t know that the WNBA gets paid so much more though when they play overseas. Hmm.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

The WNBA is owned by the NBA

who owns what doesnt mean shit !

how many people are watching and how many companies are advertising is the reality

playing games with little boys clubs about who owns what doesn't change how many people come to pay for tickets to watch and how many TV viewers there are watching the game.

people exploiting the massive profit margins they make from not having to pay women equally when they get massive audiences is when you start to ask the question
"who owns this shit?"

 

[Seattle]

You can't get paid as much as another league/sport if your league/sport doesn't bring in those same revenues.

Guys in the gym playing basketball play hard but they make no money because no one wants to go and watch them play. No one wants to televise them. Top NBA players make 200 million over 4 or 5 years. Some years they may be injured and not play at all and they still make 50 million that year.

However the league brings in 7 billion or so a year. If women's sports did the same they would make the same.

 

[Jeeves]

They're doing the same work, aren't they?
It's not the players' fault if the promoters haven't done their job - I bet they get paid anyhow.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

and they still make 50 million that year.

while no one is watching them ...
so there in lies the lie in the people who wish to promote the false logic of number of viewers defines wage levels when in fact the number of viewers doesn't decide how much the players get paid.
the system is set up as a pyramid system funded by advertising agencies

the viewer to player value rating of salary's is unable to be quantified and they will probable avoid at all cost any process that seeks to legitimize their own propaganda.

but that's the sports world for you

its all about egos & racial gender and ethnic stereo types, pizza and beer & family 4 wheel drives

that is where the advertising money is going

% of gay males in the usa = roughly between 7 to 10 %
Total number of professional NFL players
https://www.infoplease.com/askeds/total-players-nfl

1,696

= 119 Gay NFL players
...

where are they ?

 

[Seattle]

They're doing the same work, aren't they?
It's not the players' fault if the promoters haven't done their job - I bet they get paid anyhow.

That's ridiculous. If I pay you to write a song, should I pay you the same amount I would pay Paul McCartney? Lebron James gets paid millions of dollars a year by Nike for his endorsement.

I'll endorse Nike but I won't get paid millions of dollars a year. Do I have the makings of a discrimination lawsuit against Nike?

 

[billvon]

That's ridiculous. If I pay you to write a song, should I pay you the same amount I would pay Paul McCartney?

Of course not. But if there are two Paul McCartneys of equal skill and songwriting ability, and the black one makes half as much as the white one, then there's a problem.

 

[Seattle]

Of course not. But if there are two Paul McCartneys of equal skill and songwriting ability, and the black one makes half as much as the white one, then there's a problem.

Of course but that's got nothing to do with this thread.

 

[billvon]

Of course but that's got nothing to do with this thread.

So you don't understand inequality? No wonder that's confusing to you.

 

[Seattle]

So you don't understand inequality? No wonder that's confusing to you.

I understand the differences between the sexes. This lawsuit isn't going to change that. Gender inequality would be having an NBA team where everyone performed equally and were paid differently due to gender differences.

That's not what is happening here. We are talking apples and oranges and trying to make them equal.

NBA players make a lot of money because the NBA draws in a lot of money and due to their collective bargaining agreement the players get roughly 50% of that revenue.

The WNBA is losing money. You can only continue to pay employees where there is a profit. The percentage that players in U.S. Women's soccer make is greater than the men make but it's much smaller in absolute terms because U.S. Women's soccer doesn't produce the same revenue that men's soccer does.

Where is the gender inequality here (since you have the greater understanding)?

 

[Jeeves]

That's ridiculous. If I pay you to write a song, should I pay you the same amount I would pay Paul McCartney?

This argument would be valid if all athletes were free-lance, like song-writers and have unlimited copyright and royalties. As things stands, it's utterly irrelevant.

Lebron James gets paid millions of dollars a year by Nike for his endorsement.

And this, in some way determines his value to the team? Or is it also irrelevant?

I'll endorse Nike but I won't get paid millions of dollars a year. Do I have the makings of a discrimination lawsuit against Nike?

Did you sign a contract with Nike to play on their team? And they stiffed you? Sue 'em!
Otherwise -
what's any of this got to do with how much players are paid by their employers?

If you own a company and it's losing money, improve it, sell it or dissolve it. Don't keep cutting your employees' wages - that will not attract better talent or ensure a better product: it's utterly self-defeating.
If you own a team and it's losing money, improve it, sell it or dissolve it.
Or, i suppose, you could outsource it to China, but you may have to lower the hoops a bit.

 

[Seattle]

This argument would be valid if all athletes were free-lance, like song-writers and have unlimited copyright and royalties. As things stands, it's utterly irrelevant.

And this, in some way determines his value to the team? Or is it also irrelevant?

Did you sign a contract with Nike to play on their team? And they stiffed you? Sue 'em!
Otherwise -
what's any of this got to do with how much players are paid by their employers?

If you own a company and it's losing money, improve it, sell it or dissolve it. Don't keep cutting your employees' wages - that will not attract better talent or ensure a better product: it's utterly self-defeating.
If you own a team and it's losing money, improve it, sell it or dissolve it.
Or, i suppose, you could outsource it to China, but you may have to lower the hoops a bit.

Your argument is that women who play basketball deserve to make what an NBA player makes. That's ridiculous unless the league they are playing for has the same revenues as the NBA.

Forget that their league is losing money. Their pay isn't being "cut" by the way. They have a job. In this particular case, I would shut down the league if I were in charge of the NBA because it isn't popular enough and because they are suing "me".

How will that help the women though. Without out the WNBA how much money will they be making?

 

[wegs]

In reading up on this, it would seem that their main interest lies in getting the WNBA to share more of the overall revenue income with the players, with an increase in salary. The average salary is under $100k, that seems pretty low considering that the annual revenue for the WNBA is well into the millions.

 

[Seattle]

In reading up on this, it would seem that their main interest lies in getting the WNBA to share more of the overall revenue income with the players, with an increase in salary. The average salary is under $100k, that seems pretty low considering that the annual revenue for the WNBA is well into the millions.

My understanding is the league has lost at least $10 million each year for the last 22 years. I would shut down the league since it doesn't look like it is going to ever be profitable.

 

[Janus58]

I'm all for equal pay under the same or similar circumstances for women or for any other group. Recently I've seen more posts about gender lawsuits in women's basketball and women's soccer.




U.S. Woman's Soccer is very successful within the woman's soccer league but the money it draws in is much less than men's soccer. The percentage that goes to actual woman's soccer players is actually higher than the percentage that goes to men's soccer players but the men players make a lot more.

That is just not true. The Women's national team actually brought in more revenue than the Men's national team. So if you are going to base your argument on that, then the women should be paid more. And for pure entertainment, I find the women more fun to watch. (unless you enjoy players writhing on the ground as if they were mortally wounded by every foul. Can you imagine what would be said if a women soccer player pulled that?. I can just hear the claim that this was just proof that women weren't "tough enough" for the sport Just another example of the double standard.)

And just to be clear, this is coming from a 60+ year old, white, American male.

 

[Seattle]

That is just not true. The Women's national team actually brought in more revenue than the Men's national team. So if you are going to base your argument on that, then the women should be paid more. And for pure entertainment, I find the women more fun to watch. (unless you enjoy players writhing on the ground as if they were mortally wounded by every foul. Can you imagine what would be said if a women soccer player pulled that?. I can just hear the claim that this was just proof that women weren't "tough enough" for the sport Just another example of the double standard.)

And just to be clear, this is coming from a 60+ year old, white, American male.

I think the Women's Soccer case probably has more merit. The women brought in more revenue than the men in only one year. Competitively they are better than the U.S. Men's team. They are paid differently in that they (women) have a guaranteed base salary ($100k) and the men are paid by bonus.

When all the facts are available I can see how the women may have a case.

It's completely different in the WNBA. The money brought in by the WNBA isn't anywhere close to the NBA. As I said, they are losing money and have for the last 22 years. I don't see a case their. In fact, the WNBA should be terminated IMO.

Women's soccer in the U.S. probably has a strong case against the Men's Soccer salaries because U.S. Men's soccer isn't very successful and U.S. Women'soccer is.

If there is much revenue sharing among men's World Cup teams that would argue against the women's case as I'm sure the major international World Cup teams bring in much more. Maybe that's not a factor in this lawsuit?

I don't see any case for the WNBA.

 

[Jeeves]

Your argument is that women who play basketball deserve to make what an NBA player makes.

My argument is that your arguments - to wit:

If I pay you to write a song, should I pay you the same amount I would pay Paul McCartney?
Lebron James gets paid millions of dollars a year by Nike for his endorsement.
I'll endorse Nike but I won't get paid millions of dollars a year. Do I have the makings of a discrimination lawsuit against Nike?

are neither relevant nor applicable to a dispute between players and their league over disbursment of revenues.

Forget that their league is losing money.

Okay. I have no idea how much they make or lose. My argument is that if a business is failing, it is the failure of the owners and decision-makers of that business, not the failure of their employees. If they can't afford to hire professionals at the standard rate of pay for that profession, they shouldn't be in business.

How will that help the women though. ...?

By setting them free to work for someone who can run the business successfully and pays fairly.

 

[Jeeves]

... And for pure entertainment, I find the women more fun to watch.

I'm not a sport fan, but do watch soccer from time to time. International and UK, because the North American men's league sucks. (Somehow, when they acquire players South America or Europe, those players lose their ability to pass and intercept. It's like the NASL was a talent-sink. Weird!)
Women are more fun to watch. Nicer legs, fewer tats, not so much falling down for no reason; generally cleaner, faster-moving matches. Even the referees are nicer to look at. In the FIFA tournament, we saw some damn good soccer - and some phenomenal goal-keeping.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Lebron James gets paid millions of dollars a year by Nike for his endorsement.

Nike pay their millions of factory workers 30 cents per hour and have no safe working condition standards in their 3rd party contracted sweat shop factories, selling their shoes for prices that should be supporting their own patriotic flag of the usa
but they are not
$200.00 for a pair of shoes made for 30 cents per hour for some slave wage 3rd world worker who has no health care...

you seem to have a very low moral bar

people traffickers are morally and ethicaly equal to nike
people traffickers give their customers life jackets
nike doesnt