Dune vs. Warhammer 40k

[Sardonic Crisis]

Edit: The poll should read: If these universes were to come into conflict, then who would win?
(I forgot to pluralize universe)

I'm seeing a steep rise in Warhammer 40k proponents on the forums and I thought that Dune should have its say on the matter. Plus, I am getting tired of being the only Dune supporter on the ST vs. SW thread; so hopefully this will spark a fire or something.

Because of the magic aspect in Warhammer 40k, I am going to include Brian "must have been adopted" Herbert's extension of the Dune universe in this debate.

So yeah, obviously I think Dune has the advantage for several reasons:

1. Umbrella technology- Holtzman's equations have been used to fold space, create anti-grav, no-fields, shields, interstellar communication, etc.

2. Spice Melange- provides prescience, extended life, awakens genetic memories, precise control over biological functions, heightened senses, etc.

3. Miles Teg after the T-probe incident.

4. Duncan Idaho as the awakened Kwisatz Haderach.

5. Leto II as the God Emperor.

6. Fremen/Fedaykin, Sardaukar, Swordmasters of Ginaz

7. Bene Gesserit or Honored Matres or their synthesis

8. Norma Cenva as an ascended being

9. Multigalactic empire at the time of Leto II's reign and limitless reach afterwards.

10. Cymeks

11. Thinking Machines

12. Mentats

13. Gholas

14. Facedancers

The list goes on, but these are only powerful tools at Dune's disposal; the real power resides in the application of the tools. Dune's strongest point is in devising strategies and plots. Plans within plans within plans... Brute force won't do well against them.

 

[Sardonic Crisis]

The beauty of Frank Herbert's universe is that it doesn't explore just one facet of civilization but many of them (i.e., war, religion, language, psychology, technology, politics, diplomacy, philosophy, environment, etc.). As a whole, the Dune universe has more depth than most of science fiction. It's the complexity and diversity of Dune that makes it so potent.

Here is a way to look at things:

The Golden Path of Leto II was used to decentralize the power structures of humanity so that it didn't rely on one person, group, ideal, or what have you. In many science fiction universes the races have a singular intent. This centralization of a power structure allows for manipulation of said structure to move the followers in a desired direction. If Warhammer 40k has this type of set up in its factions, then it wouldn't be very hard for the Dune universe to find the proper fulcrum to manipulate them. The Bene Gesserit have shown time and time again that they are capable of such manipulation techniques.

(Note: I want to point out that the poll says: If the universes were to come into conflict, then who would win? Conflict is not merely limited to war.)

 

[ricrery]

Necrons win. Just for the sheer fact they can regenerate from puddles. So, how is Dune going to beat them? How I ask? They can just use their Gauss weaponry and eradicate foolish Dune ships. Necrons can only start with conflict because that's their purpose.

Eldar win due to superweapons that when combined can create 3,000 ly anomaly in one shot. But in truth, it depends which Eldar these are. The current ones are dying, the original ones were powerful on near Necron scale.

Chaos wins, I mean, just wins. Why?

'We shall slay you where you stand' Nils dared to say.
'Foolish boy, you can't slay me. I am a daemon prince of Nurgle. You might, if you are very powerful and very lucky, be able to destroy this living vessel and return my essence to the warp, but you could not kill me. Not even your Emperor could do that. Bellieve me, I know, I met him once. A nice enough chap by very dour.'

Burn Heretic!

 

[ricrery]

I love how you state Necrons can't detect cloaks, but their enemy, the Eldar, used cloaks and still lost many battles. Your Dune cloaks have become nothing.

 

[Sardonic Crisis]

Necrons win. Just for the sheer fact they can regenerate from puddles. So, how is Dune going to beat them? How I ask? They can just use their Gauss weaponry and eradicate foolish Dune ships. Necrons can only start with conflict because that's their purpose.

1. They are under the control of the C'tan. If the final four C'tan are eradicated then the mindless automatons won't do anything. The C'tan are weak against psychic energy so Norma Cenva would be a potent weapon, and the Bene Gesserit could just use other memory to recall the powers of the Sorceresses of Rossack (who used psychic attacks) as well.

2. You argued that they phase on the other thread. Necron Lords have a phase shield that makes them incorporeal. This is the only mention of "phase" in the Lexicanum beside phase weapons. They teleport when injured beyond immediate repair; this is not phasing. Their interstellar drive is based off of inertialess properties... it said no where that it was instantaneous.
In fact:

All Necron ships are made of living metal and as such are immune to natural phenomena such as solar flares and gas giants. It is also excellent at repairing the vessels. They use an Inertialess Drive, allowing them to move without entering the warp. The engines are very effective and alow the ships to move varying distances.

3. Gauss weaponry can't enter null-space, so how do you plan to defend against ships that fight like the Necron Lords?

Eldar win due to superweapons that when combined can create 3,000 ly anomaly in one shot. But in truth, it depends which Eldar these are. The current ones are dying, the original ones were powerful on near Necron scale.

How would they deploy such weapons if they had no target. Remember no-fields can be used to hide planets.

The Eldar may be superior to the humans of WH40k, but in Dune there has been breeding programs galore to make superior humans.

Also, the Bene Gesserit are very adept at swaying religion to their needs. Aren't the Eldars quite religious? Their religion binds them to predictable paths.

Chaos wins, I mean, just wins. Why?

Chaos is the warp itself. Are you referring to Chaos Marines and Daemons? If so, I wonder how the untainted psychic energy used in Dune would interact with the Warp. Maybe we'll just send the Kwisatz Haderach into it for a clean-up session.

As to the claim of the Daemon, hubris is a wonderful lesson the Bene Gesserit love to teach against. Plus, WH's Emperor is stuck in a chair and is human. The Daemon was playing on the heartstrings of religious reverence. The REAL God Emperor would send a daemon back quivering. (Warhammer's Emperor seems to be a cheap knock-off of Leto II)

 

[superstring01]

I'm a Dune FREEEEEEAK. I've read the original books--probably--twenty times. The first and last of the original books probably double that amount. I credit them with getting me through the toughest time of my life and have re-read them completely at least once a year for the past five years (every January). Oddly enough, I look forward to it and start counting down the months as I get closer and closer to reading them again.

So. . . yeah. Dune all the way. And, what the hell is Warhammer all about.

~String

 

[fedr808]

Necrons win. Just for the sheer fact they can regenerate from puddles. So, how is Dune going to beat them? How I ask? They can just use their Gauss weaponry and eradicate foolish Dune ships. Necrons can only start with conflict because that's their purpose.

Eldar win due to superweapons that when combined can create 3,000 ly anomaly in one shot. But in truth, it depends which Eldar these are. The current ones are dying, the original ones were powerful on near Necron scale.

Chaos wins, I mean, just wins. Why?

Burn Heretic!

Well lets just remember what happens when a Dune shield gets hit by a standard laser, low or high energy. It blows up like a fricking nuke.

 

[ricrery]

1. They are under the control of the C'tan. If the final four C'tan are eradicated then the mindless automatons won't do anything. The C'tan are weak against psychic energy so Norma Cenva would be a potent weapon, and the Bene Gesserit could just use other memory to recall the powers of the Sorceresses of Rossack (who used psychic attacks) as well.

Correction, they are weak against WARP psychic energy, not other things.

2. You argued that they phase on the other thread. Necron Lords have a phase shield that makes them incorporeal. This is the only mention of "phase" in the Lexicanum beside phase weapons. They teleport when injured beyond immediate repair; this is not phasing. Their interstellar drive is based off of inertialess properties... it said no where that it was instantaneous.
In fact:

Let's see, Wraiths use phase constantly when hit. Look up Wraiths.

3. Gauss weaponry can't enter null-space, so how do you plan to defend against ships that fight like the Necron Lords?

Okay, then Dune weaponry can't damage Necron ships. How do they plan to stop them from destroying planets and star systems with World Engines and mini-Dyson spheres? Hell, they can actually destroy Dune itself with that tactic. Because their ships phase before they teleport away.

How would they deploy such weapons if they had no target. Remember no-fields can be used to hide planets.

So? They can't hide all of them. Necrons also fight cloaked enemies and win, constantly.

The Eldar may be superior to the humans of WH40k, but in Dune there has been breeding programs galore to make superior humans.

Ever heard of heard of Space Marines, or Grey Knights, or Adeptus Custodes, or the Primarches? Oh yeah, so much for humans being weak in 40k.

Also, the Bene Gesserit are very adept at swaying religion to their needs. Aren't the Eldars quite religious? Their religion binds them to predictable paths.

Wrong. They have REAL Gods who were KILLED by CHAOS GODS. They won't be swayed a bit. The Laughing God would probably toy with the Bene Gesserit.

Chaos is the warp itself. Are you referring to Chaos Marines and Daemons? If so, I wonder how the untainted psychic energy used in Dune would interact with the Warp. Maybe we'll just send the Kwisatz Haderach into it for a clean-up session.

All of it. All the Greater Daemons immune to everything but force weapons and such. All the Daemon Princes plotting carefully. All the Lesser Daemons capable of popping a 9 ft Space Marine in powerful armor, then regenerating back to their previous form when blown apart. All the Chaos Marines who can prove stronger than their counterparts, all of them!

As to the claim of the Daemon, hubris is a wonderful lesson the Bene Gesserit love to teach against. Plus, WH's Emperor is stuck in a chair and is human. The Daemon was playing on the heartstrings of religious reverence. The REAL God Emperor would send a daemon back quivering. (Warhammer's Emperor seems to be a cheap knock-off of Leto II)

What? Did you just say he's human? Oh no, that's bullshit! It goes humans < Space Marines < Grey Knights < Adeptus Custodes < Primarches < Emperor.

An Alpha Plus Psyker once shook his hand, and he stated he felt like a sand particle on a beach.

The power the top four grades represents is immense. A high Delta level can read the minds of a good sized town simultaneously, or crush a man to death against a wall in seconds. High grade psykers are extremely powerful, and not to be taken lightly. Beta level is the highest a human can go and still be considered sane.

An Alpha Plus, however, is a being of grotesque power. They are described in the 4th edition Rulebook as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of bloodlust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally.

Here

That's right, a being who can accidentally destroy planets was a mere spec in comparison to the Emperor. Take back those words right now.

 

[ricrery]

Well lets just remember what happens when a Dune shield gets hit by a standard laser, low or high energy. It blows up like a fricking nuke.

What? That sounds volatile.

 

[ricrery]

I'm a Dune FREEEEEEAK. I've read the original books--probably--twenty times. The first and last of the original books probably double that amount. I credit them with getting me through the toughest time of my life and have re-read them completely at least once a year for the past five years (every January). Oddly enough, I look forward to it and start counting down the months as I get closer and closer to reading them again.

So. . . yeah. Dune all the way. And, what the hell is Warhammer all about.

~String

Don't blindly make assumptions. Warhammer is what happens when Foundation and Dune collide.

 

[superstring01]

Don't blindly make assumptions. Warhammer is what happens when Foundation and Dune collide.

Thus. . . I asked what Warhammer is.

Guess I could just wiki it. I keep seeing that term pop up here.

~String

 

[Dywyddyr]

Thus. . . I asked what Warhammer is.
Guess I could just wiki it. I keep seeing that term pop up here.
~String

Warhammer comes in two flavours.
Warhammer proper, as it were were, (fantasy) and Warhammer 40,000 ("science-fiction" which is the one under discussion here).
They're table-top wargames (with a large set of supporting novels behind them).
Basically they're fan-boy-hack-and-slash-roll-lots-of-dice games with the underlying premise(s) ripped off from numerous science fiction and fantasy books - although the manufacturers (Games Workshop [UK] - not to be confused with Games Designer Workshop [USA and now defunct]) will threaten anyone who says so in print or public with court - they claim all of their ideas are original to them (yeah right, like R A Heinlein didn't write about power armour in 1959 etc).

Oh yeah, and they're massively over-priced and excellent examples of marketing locking in its own customer base.

 

[pjdude1219]

Thus. . . I asked what Warhammer is.

Guess I could just wiki it. I keep seeing that term pop up here.

~String

Warhammer ans Warhammer 40k are tabletop minature wargames. They each have numerous different armies to choose from in the case of 40k it space marines, chaos space marines, orks, eldar, dark eldar, imperium guard, necron, tau, sisters of battle, tyrinids, and I think thats it. it happens in the 41 millenia. The space marines are a bunch of religious warriers who the primary soldiers of the imperioum which is a xenophobic as all hell killing anything not human; they are the good guys.

 

[Sardonic Crisis]

Correction, they are weak against WARP psychic energy, not other things.

Psychic energy is psychic energy; the source is just different. It would be like me saying that water from Warhammer 40k couldn't kill a sandworn because it came from that universe instead of Dune's, and it has only been shown that water in the Dune universe kills sandworms. There are correlates that will cross over.

Let's see, Wraiths use phase constantly when hit. Look up Wraiths.

I looked them up; yes, they can phase.

Okay, then Dune weaponry can't damage Necron ships. How do they plan to stop them from destroying planets and star systems with World Engines and mini-Dyson spheres? Hell, they can actually destroy Dune itself with that tactic. Because their ships phase before they teleport away.

Dune is already slagged, sorry. It happened at the end of Heretics. And the spice is safe and sound as sand trout have been seeded throughout the universe now along with the Tleilaxu tanks able to engineer it.

Why can't Dune damage those ships? There are plenty of power weapons in Dune. Four obliterator devices slagged the entire surface of Arrakis (Dune). Then there is the device that was used by the Honored Matres at the end of Chapterhouse that selectively killed every Bene Gesserit forces on Junction except for the leaders. There is debate as to whether it was a type of neutron bomb or a disruptor of some type (Frank had the habit of leaving the workings of technology to the imaginations of the readers because the story was more important); the point is that millions of troops were killed instantly in the middle of battle and the Honored Matres weren't touched by it. Then there are stone-burners which are shaped-charge atomics capable of destroying planets as pointed out by Paul during his internal monologue in Dune Messiah. Don't laugh at atomics, they may be weak now but imagine what 10,000 years worth of refining can do. Then there is using the Holtzman shields as weapons (like Duncan Idaho did in Chapterhouse); big explosions caused at the sub-atomic level (and I argue that it is the quantum level due to the indeterminate blast location). Then there is the conjecture for a possible fold-space weapon because they have all the building blocks necessary for it: 1. Automated foldspace navigation. 2. Pick a weapon in the Dune arsenal. 3. Combine for a weapon that goes off in the belly of the opponent's ship. Granted, its never talked about, but that might be due to the fact you can't target a ship that isn't there (no-field).

Show me where it says that Necron ships phase or teleport. I've only seen bits on their Inertialess Drive (which isn't instantaneous travel btw) and that the troops teleport in a green eerie light when damaged beyond immediate repair.

So? They can't hide all of them. Necrons also fight cloaked enemies and win, constantly.

A no-field isn't a typical cloak. They don't have to "drop the cloak" to launch an attack. The no-field separates them from normal space yet allows them to still interact with normal space.

Ever heard of heard of Space Marines, or Grey Knights, or Adeptus Custodes, or the Primarches? Oh yeah, so much for humans being weak in 40k.

A Duncan Idaho ghola, a man with expert training in martial arts and weaponry along with being trained as a sword master of Ginaz, gets schooled by Moneo, who is an elderly servant of Leto II; this is after about 3,000 years of selective breeding by the God Emperor. Siona outruns Dire-wolves to escape one of Leto II's strongholds while one of her compatriots swings one around by its neck to buy her some time (based on the description, the wolves would have to have been around 800+ lbs)(God Emperor of Dune). Then there are the Honored Matres that utilize adrenaline as a substitute for spice, and their reflexes are so quick that there isn't time to react to the blow (not even the Bene Gesserit are as fast with their super-quick weirding way)(Heretics and Chapterhouse). Then there is the pinnacle of human breeding in Miles Teg; after fighting off a T-probe interrogation he gains heightened abilities such as moving faster than the eye can see and seeing no-ships. In Heretics he runs through a giant complex on Gammu and kills all the Honored Matres in it in a matter of minutes with his bare hands.

That was just the physical side of human evolution in Dune.

Wrong. They have REAL Gods who were KILLED by CHAOS GODS. They won't be swayed a bit. The Laughing God would probably toy with the Bene Gesserit.

Uh-huh... they are worshiped as gods but that does not a god make. In fact, the Eldar gods are more likely the Old Ones:

The Old Ones eventually came to the conclusion that they needed to create warrior and psychic races with the specific purpose of combating the Necrons. These races are thought to have included the Eldar, the Rashan, and the K'nib

And the tie in:

In the early days, there was no barrier between gods and mortals - the deities walked among the Eldar, teaching them and leading them in an age of peace and prosperity.

The Chaos Gods are described in the Lexicanum as powerful entities that derive their power and form from mortals.

The Chaos Gods, also called the Dark Gods or the Ruinous Powers, are powerful beings of the psychic universe known as the warp, created and sustained by the emotions and souls of every living being of the material universe. Although they are god-like beings, they are by their nature monomaniacal and completely single-minded (formed completely of a single emotion or concept) as well as being completely dependent on the emotions of mortal creatures for their power and continued existence.

Gods are able to devote a fraction of their power to create daemons, whose appearance and character reflect the god's own nature. These daemons may be reabsorbed into the god at whim. The least of the minor Gods may be so limited in their power that expending their power to create a daemon means their entire power is expended; in effect, the god becomes a daemon.

Then there is the C'tan, whom feed off of stars and are described as:

The C'tan (Eldar Yngir) are said to be the oldest beings in existence. It is said that they were created at the very beginning of the universe, spawned from swirling gases and enormous amounts of energy, and as such are etheric creatures by nature1. In their natural form they are vast beings and spread themselves over the surface of a star, sucking at its energy to feed itself1. After a time, they learned to use diaphanous wings to travel to other stars to continue their consumption. The matter around them was so insignificant that it didn't even register on their voracious appetite1.

So no, they aren't REAL gods.

The "monomaniacal" Chaos gods are exactly what I meant about a single driving force behind something. This is exactly the kind of thing the Bene Gesserits are expert at manipulating.

The Eldar no longer call upon their "gods" yet hold to their religion. This is fair game for the Bene Gesserit.

All of it. All the Greater Daemons immune to everything but force weapons and such. All the Daemon Princes plotting carefully. All the Lesser Daemons capable of popping a 9 ft Space Marine in powerful armor, then regenerating back to their previous form when blown apart. All the Chaos Marines who can prove stronger than their counterparts, all of them!

They have never encountered the final form of Duncan Idaho. He is a man that simultaneously can control every thinking machine in the Dune universe and even do the same for every human in the universe. He is everywhere at once within his mind. He has thousands of years of tutelage under the God Emperor. He is the Kwisatz Haderach, the warrior at the end of the universe, the prophesied one to steer humanity through Kralizec (Sandworms of Dune).

What? Did you just say he's human? Oh no, that's bullshit! It goes humans < Space Marines < Grey Knights < Adeptus Custodes < Primarches < Emperor.

Yes, human and stuck in a chair:

The Emperor is confined within the Golden Throne, vast biomechanical machinery forming the great Sanctum Imperialis, located deep within the continent-spanning complex on Terra known as the Imperial Palace. There the Emperor's physical form is sustained by carefully maintained machinery.

Physically, the enthroned Emperor of Mankind is a ravaged corpse. The last surviving cells in his shattered body are sustained by the Golden Throne, providing an anchor for the Emperor's spirit, which extends across the entire Imperium. While his body is sustained, his will endures.2

Also note that his body provides the anchor for his extreme psychic will. Without the body he can no longer do anything. I also read that they fear once he does die he'll be swallowed by the warp and become the fifth god.

An Alpha Plus Psyker once shook his hand, and he stated he felt like a sand particle on a beach.

Here

That's right, a being who can accidentally destroy planets was a mere spec in comparison to the Emperor. Take back those words right now.

You only selected what would help you even though the author of the article continues:

There is some controversy as to whether this description should be taken as an objective description of the
Alpha Plus Level of psychic mastery, or if it is intended to be read as Imperial propaganda, and just being the exaggerated view of the generally anti-psychic authorities of the 40K world. In Dan Abnett's works, where the term first appeared, the Alpha Level psyker Esarhaddon (also the name of the King of Assyria between 681-669 BC) is powerful and able to control hundreds of Imperial citizens as puppets against the protagonists, but he is not described as being powerful enough to destroy a battle Titan, and is eventually subdued (Many works of fiction show that psykers seem to specialise in certain areas of psychic ability, so it is possible that Esarhaddon specialised in mind control or mental manipulation). Abnett's works (specifically the Eisenhorn trilogy) also refer to characters having a "PQ" rating. It is unknown how this relates to a psyker's power.

You cherry-picked your evidence... for shame!:spank:

The God Emperor, Leto II, has pretty much the entirety of human history living in his mind; in order to gain those genetic memories he had to quell the multitude of voices that were all calling for consciousness. He was half man, half sandworm. In the beginning of his transformation he performed remarkable shows of strength. He'd run for days in the desert and never tire even though he ran as a blur to observers. He controlled a multi-galactic empire; yes, multiple galaxies! He set humanity on his Golden Path and thousands of years after his death the universe still feels his effects. His consciousness lives inside of every sandworm across the universe. His prescience was unparalleled.

Let him get a hold of the Warp and its over, no contest.

Stop being a sycophant to the false Emperor of Mankind.

 

[Sardonic Crisis]

I'm a Dune FREEEEEEAK. I've read the original books--probably--twenty times. The first and last of the original books probably double that amount. I credit them with getting me through the toughest time of my life and have re-read them completely at least once a year for the past five years (every January). Oddly enough, I look forward to it and start counting down the months as I get closer and closer to reading them again.

So. . . yeah. Dune all the way. And, what the hell is Warhammer all about.

~String

God Emperor and Chapterhouse are my favorites to read. There is so much depth to Frank's universe that I find new perspectives on the human condition every time I read one of his books.

It's sad that his son has failed miserably to continue the legacy. From an interview through Waldenbooks, Frank talks about the niche that messiahs play in society and how the first three books are an exploration of the messiah complex; there is no way that Frank would have had Duncan Idaho be the "true" Kwisatz Haderach because it runs counter to everything that I've heard or read him say. Brian's version of the finale is just.... wrong.

Thus. . . I asked what Warhammer is.

Guess I could just wiki it. I keep seeing that term pop up here.

~String

Yeah, I've been sifting through the WH40k Lexicanum to gauge strengths and weaknesses. I haven't found the background story to the game to be anything special.

Don't blindly make assumptions. Warhammer is what happens when Foundation and Dune collide.

NO. NO. NO! Warhammer is definitely not that. You give too much credit to a game. Yes, it has a well-built back-story; however, it lacks the depth and scope of either Dune or Foundation.

 

[ricrery]

Psychic energy is psychic energy; the source is just different. It would be like me saying that water from Warhammer 40k couldn't kill a sandworn because it came from that universe instead of Dune's, and it has only been shown that water in the Dune universe kills sandworms. There are correlates that will cross over.

Incorrect. They are WEAK against WARP energies. It doesn't even have to be psychic, just Warp.

Dune is already slagged, sorry. It happened at the end of Heretics. And the spice is safe and sound as sand trout have been seeded throughout the universe now along with the Tleilaxu tanks able to engineer it.

Oh yeah? Well, destroying planets and star systems is still in their capabilities.

Why can't Dune damage those ships?

Because it takes fleets of ships hurling 1 digit - 2 digit petatons to damage just to beat one ship, and that one ship still destroys most of them (who withstand many untold exatons) in one shot, then it repairs.

There are plenty of power weapons in Dune.

Are they conventional to transport ships that can vaporize a crust in under thirty minutes?

Four obliterator devices slagged the entire surface of Arrakis (Dune).

Cyclonic Torpedoes, can do that too, but they aren't required, as standard ship-to-ship weapons in the Imperium can destroy the crust. There are also special Cyclonic Torpedoes that act like the chain reaction nukes from Dune.

Then there is the device that was used by the Honored Matres at the end of Chapterhouse that selectively killed every Bene Gesserit forces on Junction except for the leaders.

The Imperium has toxin weapons on ships capable of killing all life on a planet.

There is debate as to whether it was a type of neutron bomb or a disruptor of some type (Frank had the habit of leaving the workings of technology to the imaginations of the readers because the story was more important); the point is that millions of troops were killed instantly in the middle of battle and the Honored Matres weren't touched by it.

In "Caves of Ice" by Sandy Mitchell, shooting a few volleys from several warships could turn an entire planet into a dead rock for generations, but it would only be collateral damage as the Necron tomb on the planet would survive the volley. Impressive firepower and durability.

Then there are stone-burners which are shaped-charge atomics capable of destroying planets as pointed out by Paul during his internal monologue in Dune Messiah.

I know, there are the special Cyclonic Torpedoes that do the same thing.

Don't laugh at atomics, they may be weak now but imagine what 10,000 years worth of refining can do.

Show me where it says that Necron ships phase or teleport. I've only seen bits on their Inertialess Drive (which isn't instantaneous travel btw) and that the troops teleport in a green eerie light when damaged beyond immediate repair.

Escaping requires phasing out to be immune to attack, next comes teleporting to escape, simple as that. It might not say it on Lexicanum, but they can cross the galaxy in seconds. The Eldar, who use Webway Gates as instantaneous travel, were less advanced than Necrons. So, I think it's safe to say Necrons have instantaneous travel too.

They're still weak. It's just that they drill into the planet's core, but Imperium weaponry has drilling capabilities too.

Then there are the Honored Matres that utilize adrenaline as a substitute for spice, and their reflexes are so quick that there isn't time to react to the blow (not even the Bene Gesserit are as fast with their super-quick weirding way)(Heretics and Chapterhouse).

The Dark Eldar (even Eldar as a whole maybe) can move at speeds that the Space Marines can't cope with. One Space Marine is worth one hundred men or more, and Dark Eldar leaders can take them on with their speed.

That was just the physical side of human evolution in Dune.

Irrelevant, because I asked for super soldier abilities. A handful of Space Marines with the right tools can kill thousands of Orks, a handful of Adeptus Custodes can kill millions of Orks.

They have never encountered the final form of Duncan Idaho. He is a man that simultaneously can control every thinking machine in the Dune universe and even do the same for every human in the universe. He is everywhere at once within his mind. He has thousands of years of tutelage under the God Emperor. He is the Kwisatz Haderach, the warrior at the end of the universe, the prophesied one to steer humanity through Kralizec (Sandworms of Dune).

So? The thing is, he can't permanently kill any Greater Daemons. For they can only be banished. Very powerful Alpha Plus Psykers can create a Warp Storm that releases many of them.

You cherry-picked your evidence... for shame!

Old novel. Back then, a sub-sector capital Hive World had only twenty billion citizens, but now, normal ones have 100-500 billion citizens. But then again... Dan Abnett is high canon...

The God Emperor, Leto II, has pretty much the entirety of human history living in his mind; in order to gain those genetic memories he had to quell the multitude of voices that were all calling for consciousness. He was half man, half sandworm. In the beginning of his transformation he performed remarkable shows of strength. He'd run for days in the desert and never tire even though he ran as a blur to observers. He controlled a multi-galactic empire; yes, multiple galaxies! He set humanity on his Golden Path and thousands of years after his death the universe still feels his effects. His consciousness lives inside of every sandworm across the universe. His prescience was unparalleled.

First, the God Emperor of the Imperium is weakened but is still stopping a dimension from consuming the Imperium, an entire dimension is stopped by his power. Second, the C'Tan had worshipers around the universe. In "Mechanicum" by "Graham Mcneil", the Void Dragon is worshiped in one thousand galaxies.

Let him get a hold of the Warp and its over, no contest.

Unlikely, the Chaos Gods might not do anything usually, but if something attacks them with serious power, they will rebel.

Stop being a sycophant to the false Emperor of Mankind.

He's an immortal Star Child. Killing him only brings him back stronger. But that is just a theory, he can either become a Warp God, or just release the Void Dragon if he dies. But, the Star Child thing makes the most sense out the three.

 

[ricrery]

NO. NO. NO! Warhammer is definitely not that. You give too much credit to a game. Yes, it has a well-built back-story; however, it lacks the depth and scope of either Dune or Foundation.

I meant it's similar to both universes. Navigators and God Emperors for a start.

 

[Sardonic Crisis]

I meant it's similar to both universes. Navigators and God Emperors for a start.

There is a reason for that:

Basically they're fan-boy-hack-and-slash-roll-lots-of-dice games with the underlying premise(s) ripped off from numerous science fiction and fantasy books - although the manufacturers (Games Workshop [UK] - not to be confused with Games Designer Workshop [USA and now defunct]) will threaten anyone who says so in print or public with court - they claim all of their ideas are original to them (yeah right, like R A Heinlein didn't write about power armour in 1959 etc).

 

[fedr808]

What? That sounds volatile.

No joke, it seriously does. Why do you think you never see them using lasers only projectile weapons? They know how to use basic laser tech, but when they figured out shooting it at a personal shield and I stress a personal shield, not even a starship shield which is many, many, many times larger, would make there own little Hiroshima. With a ship I could imagine it would wipe out a lot of the fleet.

 

[Sardonic Crisis]

Incorrect. They are WEAK against WARP energies. It doesn't even have to be psychic, just Warp.

The Lexicanum says psychic energy. Burden of proof is on you.

Oh yeah? Well, destroying planets and star systems is still in their capabilities.

In a race to planet bust, Dune would win because of:
1. Capability to hide planets with a no-field.

2. Dune has more numbers, especially if you include the thinking machine fleets and their capability to produce more.

Because it takes fleets of ships hurling 1 digit - 2 digit petatons to damage just to beat one ship, and that one ship still destroys most of them (who withstand many untold exatons) in one shot, then it repairs.

Interstellar combat became obsolete with the introduction of no-ships. Most combat took place on world. However, the obliterator weapons prove petaton range. I posted the evidence a long while back on the SW vs. ST thread. I'm sure they can be easily made into interstellar conventional weaponry.

Are they conventional to transport ships that can vaporize a crust in under thirty minutes?

Like I said, there would have to be a re-outfitting due to the tactics and strategy used in Dune during the time of Chapterhouse.

Cyclonic Torpedoes, can do that too, but they aren't required, as standard ship-to-ship weapons in the Imperium can destroy the crust. There are also special Cyclonic Torpedoes that act like the chain reaction nukes from Dune.

Destroy the crust how? Obliterators don't pulverize the crust apart, they melt it in the true definition of slagging.

The Imperium has toxin weapons on ships capable of killing all life on a planet.

Ineffective against the Bene Gesserit because they have control over their own bio-chemistry and can neutralize toxins.

Thinking machines are the ones who use biological warfare.

The weapon used on Junction was an energy based attack that could select friend from foe and wipe out the enemy instantly.

In "Caves of Ice" by Sandy Mitchell, shooting a few volleys from several warships could turn an entire planet into a dead rock for generations, but it would only be collateral damage as the Necron tomb on the planet would survive the volley. Impressive firepower and durability.

Escaping requires phasing out to be immune to attack, next comes teleporting to escape, simple as that. It might not say it on Lexicanum, but they can cross the galaxy in seconds. The Eldar, who use Webway Gates as instantaneous travel, were less advanced than Necrons. So, I think it's safe to say Necrons have instantaneous travel too.

No the Eldar stumbled upon the gates made by another race, this gave them instantaneous travel.

The teleportation is a recall mechanism, not a method of travel. They use an Inertialess Drive that is extremely fast; however, Dune's foldspace isn't fast, it really is instantaneous no matter the distance. Hell, it jumps to alternate universes as shown in Hunters of Dune.

The Dark Eldar (even Eldar as a whole maybe) can move at speeds that the Space Marines can't cope with. One Space Marine is worth one hundred men or more, and Dark Eldar leaders can take them on with their speed.

Ok... since they are based off of a game they should have a movement rate. Please post it.

Irrelevant, because I asked for super soldier abilities. A handful of Space Marines with the right tools can kill thousands of Orks, a handful of Adeptus Custodes can kill millions of Orks.

Honored Matres are a 'super soldier' force. They are extremely fast, deadly in combat, and they subjugate men under their will through sexual bonding. Any human would be susceptible from Warhammer to the bonding technique.

You neglected to deal with Miles Teg. He can be reproduced as gholas and maybe even train others to have his talent.

So? The thing is, he can't permanently kill any Greater Daemons. For they can only be banished. Very powerful Alpha Plus Psykers can create a Warp Storm that releases many of them.

The problem is that the Chaos forces rely on the Warp, as they were born from it. Dune's first strategy would be to sway the Warp to their own ends. Leto I commented in DUNE that on a water world, like Caladan, you need naval power, and that on Dune you need desert power. Dune strategists take ecology into account and the Warp is a major ecological influence on the WH40k universe.

Old novel. Back then, a sub-sector capital Hive World had only twenty billion citizens, but now, normal ones have 100-500 billion citizens. But then again... Dan Abnett is high canon...

The claim of destroying worlds is still in question.

First, the God Emperor of the Imperium is weakened but is still stopping a dimension from consuming the Imperium, an entire dimension is stopped by his power. Second, the C'Tan had worshipers around the universe. In "Mechanicum" by "Graham Mcneil", the Void Dragon is worshiped in one thousand galaxies.

1. He relies on the energy he uses from the Warp. Leto II was self-sufficient. That is a marked difference. The Lexicanum says that humans have an affinity to the Warp. Imagine Leto II holding that power... the Chaos gods would quiver in fear and the false emperor would be but a mote.

Unlikely, the Chaos Gods might not do anything usually, but if something attacks them with serious power, they will rebel.

Let them, they were born from the Warp... that doesn't mean that they are the Warp.

He's an immortal Star Child. Killing him only brings him back stronger. But that is just a theory, he can either become a Warp God, or just release the Void Dragon if he dies. But, the Star Child thing makes the most sense out the three.

How much of it is just religious myth? Most likely he would become a Warp God. Which really means he would be a powerful energy being within the Warp.

Plus there is the potential to make Gholas of any of the key WH figures with just a single cell from the original. How about that for confusion in the Imperium, their Emperor alive and well but Bene Gesserit trained.



The problem for WH40k is that the factions are too reliant on something or another. The C'tan need souls, the Chaos gods need the emotions of living beings. The Warp is heavily relied upon. All these are exploitable weaknesses that Dune was made to guard against with Leto II's Golden Path. Spice is no longer needed by the majority of the universe. Humanity has spread out to countless worlds. Interstellar travel is no longer held by one faction. The decentralization of power in Dune has made a humanity far more dangerous than you can imagine.


Speaking of Spice... oh how the Imperium would bow before Dune to get that stuff... can you imagine prescient psykers?

Dune just has too much ability for the narrow WH40k to handle. Yeah, weaponry might be in favor of WH but weapons don't necessarily end conflicts.

Oh, and for the Necrons... perhaps it would be the task of the Sorceresses of Rossack to rejuvinate the captive souls and give them a will to rebel. Or maybe even Duncan Idaho could speak to them at that level. Hey, its worth a shot... has there been any attempt in the WH40k books?