Does the moon exist when no one is looking at it?

Мы можем сказать: Луна круглая, твёрдая, серая, холодная, т.п. Мы можем сказать: трава зелёная, море мокрое, птицы в лесу поют звонко... но существует ли всё это где-либо ещё кроме нашего сознания? Нет, не существует. Существует(?) лишь поток частиц, бесформенных и "безвидных"(помните библейское "земля была безвидна и пуста"?). Это для нас море мокрое, а трава зелёная, потому что мы преобразуем поток частиц в своей голове в цвет и ощущения. В природе нет ни звука, ни цвета, ни света, ни холодного, ни горячего, ни твёрдого, ни мягкого. Это наше сознание "видит" реальность такой, как мы привыкли себе её представлять. Так существует ли Вселенная вне сознания?
 
Does the moon exist when no one is looking at it?

Yes.

The Moon was around for at least a half billion years before there were critters to look at it.

Without the Moon there would be no tides, without tides there would be no tide pools, without tide pools there would be no life (we think).
 
ольга said:
So does the Universe exist outside of consciousness?
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Yes.

Even though "sound" is perceived in the ear/mind, trees falling over still create vibrations in the air - and did so long before there were ears/minds.

Even though "green" is perceived in the eye/mind, leaves still absorbed light and reflected frequencies around 500THz - and did so long before there were eyes/minds.

Even though "hard/soft" is a relative judgement call, acorns still fell out of trees onto beds of needles and stayed intact, while acorns fell on rocks and cracked open - and did so long before there were minds to judge things as hard or soft.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Without the Moon there would be no tides, without tides there would be no tide pools, without tide pools there would be no life (we think).
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Is observing the tides the same thing ,in essence as observing the moon "directly"? (an indirect observation)

I also had the thought ,is the saying "no man is an island" related to the question?

ie the moon only exists because it is observed and the observer ,likewise only exists because he or she has something to observe.
 
geordief said:
Is observing the tides the same thing ,in essence as observing the moon "directly"? (an indirect observation)
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That's not what the opening question asked.

The question asked if the Moon exists when it's not being observed.

It does. The effects it has on the world around it were happening even in the absence of observers.

geordief said:
ie the moon only exists because it is observed and the observer ,likewise only exists because he or she has something to observe.
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No. Without tides there would be no observers. We know there were tides long before there were observers.

The question isn't "does the moon exist without observers?", the question is: "would observers exist without the Moon"?
 
DaveC426913 said:
Yes.

Even though "sound" is perceived in the ear/mind, trees falling over still create vibrations in the air - and did so long before there were ears/minds.

Even though "green" is perceived in the eye/mind, leaves still absorbed light and reflected frequencies around 500THz - and did so long before there were eyes/minds.

Even though "hard/soft" is a relative judgement call, acorns still fell out of trees onto beds of needles and stayed intact, while acorns fell on rocks and cracked open - and did so long before there were minds to judge things as hard or soft.
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Как вы можете это доказать?
 
ольга said:
What does reality look like outside of consciousness?
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Exactly like it is now. If all conscious life were wiped out in a life extinction event tomorrow, say a huge Corona ejection event that lasted for three months, nothing would change.
My uncle died when I was at school the moon continued.
My grandfather died before I graduated, the sun continued.
My auntie died in the 1970s, the galaxy remains.
 
The phenomenology question has been answered pretty well - clearly, what we see is an artifact of our visual system and neural processing. But the large chunk of matter is real, to the extent that large collections of atoms undergo quantum decoherence and are not in quantum superpositions. The moon's wavefunctions are collapsed even without a sentient observer, so it's not a big smear of probability fog when no one is looking. David Bohm introduced the notion of decoherence back in the 1950s, and provided a way to understand how quantum systems convert to ones that can be accessed with classical mechanics. Hence, we know the tides will continue even if all consciousness perishes on Earth.
 
DaveC426913 said:
We know how nature works - and has worked for a billion years.

We know trees existed before animals came along. We know they fell over. We know they used chlorophyll.
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Я не против, чтобы вы это знали. Я спрашиваю: можете ли вы это доказать?
 
Pinball1970 said:
Exactly like it is now. If all conscious life were wiped out in a life extinction event tomorrow, say a huge Corona ejection event that lasted for three months, nothing would change.
My uncle died when I was at school the moon continued.
My grandfather died before I graduated, the sun continued.
My auntie died in the 1970s, the galaxy remains.
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Пин, а как будет выглядеть Луна без цвета, формы, света и пр.? Как в Библии - "безвидна и пуста"?
 
TheVat said:
The phenomenology question has been answered pretty well - clearly, what we see is an artifact of our visual system and neural processing. But the large chunk of matter is real, to the extent that large collections of atoms undergo quantum decoherence and are not in quantum superpositions. The moon's wavefunctions are collapsed even without a sentient observer, so it's not a big smear of probability fog when no one is looking. David Bohm introduced the notion of decoherence back in the 1950s, and provided a way to understand how quantum systems convert to ones that can be accessed with classical mechanics. Hence, we know the tides will continue even if all consciousness perishes on Earth.
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Теват, а как они коллапсируют вне времени? Время - это же тоже функция сознания.
 
ольга said:
I don't mind you knowing that. I'm asking: can you prove it?
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Nothing in nature can be "proven". I'll have to ask what you mean by this.

For all we know we are all brains in a vat, being fed illusions of the world through a tubes and wires.

We have centuries and mountains of evidence that point toward the evolution of life. But yes, we could throw all that away and conclude that the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that god put all the fossils in the ground before we arrived just to test our faith. Sure.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Nothing in nature can be "proven". I'll have to ask what you mean by this.

For all we know we are all brains in a vat, being fed illusions of the world through a tubes and wires.

We have centuries and mountains of evidence that point toward the evolution of life. But yes, we could throw all that away and conclude that the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that god put all the fossils in the ground before we arrived just to test our faith. Sure.
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Дэйв, просто опишите, как выглядит Луна без обработки её образа сознанием. Что может быть проще?
 
ольга said:
Pin, what would the Moon look like without color, shape, light, etc.? Like in the Bible - "without form and empty"?
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Talk about confirmation bias...

By the way, if you want to get someone's attention directly, (sorry, Pinball1970 I'm throwing you under the bus :) ) type an '@' sign, then their name. A dialogue pops up to let you pick the member's name and it will send them an alert directly.
 
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