Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe

[river]

Its about showing that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

OK, show it.

Prove it . Is better . I have proven that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

I have proven that physics are dense patterns of self-ordered mathematical relational values.
Now you prove that mathematics are result of physical what, affinity? (your words).

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Based on physical things . But you haven't still proved that mathematics creates a physical thing .

 

[paddoboy]

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Not at all . Mathematics is the consequence of physical .

Mathematics in and of its self can not form a physical thing .

WTF are you on about?
No one said any different.
Go back read again, and drop your silly anti maths nonsense!

No one is saying different.

Exactly what I said...sheesh!

 

[river]

WTF are you on about?
No one said any different.
Go back read again, and drop your silly anti maths nonsense!

Exactly what I said...sheesh!

So then we agree that the physical is the essence of mathematics .

 

[paddoboy]

So then we agree that the physical is the essence of mathematics .

No. OK? mathematics is the language of physics and science....Stop trying to disprove and/or discredit the science of maths [you can't] simply because it annihilates the nonsensical electric/Plasma universe hypothetical. It is indispensable in cosmology and physics and that is fact river.

 

[Michael 345]

Have you looked at a spiral galaxy lately? How did this object self-organized into becoming a spiral

Physics

 

[paddoboy]

Physics

Bingo! specifically gravity.

 

[river]

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So then we agree that the physical is the essence of mathematics .

No. OK? mathematics is the language of physics and science....Stop trying to disprove and/or discredit the science of maths [you can't] simply because it annihilates the nonsensical electric/Plasma universe hypothetical. It is indispensable in cosmology and physics and that is fact river.

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Not discredit mathematics , just put mathematics in its place . Behind the Physical .

 

[Write4U]

W4U said; OK, show it.

Prove it . Is better . I have proven that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .

No you have not. Mathematics are fundamental to physics. Explain Physics to me without resorting to mathematics.

I have proven that physics are dense patterns of self-ordered mathematical relational values.
Now you prove that mathematics are result of physical what, affinity? (your words).

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Based on physical things.

That is a statement, not an argument.

But you haven't still proved that mathematics creates a physical thing .

I have proved that physical things could not exist without mathematical interaction of constituent values, not physical properties.
Physical property

A physical property is any property that is measurable, whose value describes a state of a physical system.[1]

It may be difficult to determine whether a given property is a material property or not. Color, for example, can be seen and measured; however, what one perceives as color is really an interpretation of the reflective properties of a surface and the light used to illuminate it.

In this sense, many ostensibly physical properties are called supervenient. A supervenient property is one which is actual, but is secondary to some underlying reality.

This is similar to the way in which objects are supervenient on atomic structure. A cup might have the physical properties of mass, shape, color, temperature, etc., but these properties are supervenient on the underlying atomic structure, which may in turn be supervenient on an underlying quantum structure.

Physical properties are contrasted with chemical properties which determine the way a material behaves in a chemical reaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_property

All physical, chemical, or supervenient properties, ultimately rely on their relational mathematical values and mathematical functions (processes). Any quantification or qualification of universal behaviors must be accompanied by the pertinent mathematics involved. Else, proof cannot be provided.

Proof of physical reality is only possible via mathematics.

There is no other way to make any sense of it at all, unless you want to resort to an even more obscure causality of a mythical Intelligent Designer, which of course is not physical at all either and does not require proof of any kind. Religion advocates for Creation of physical things from Nothing, right?

 

[river]

W4U said; OK, show it.
Prove it . Is better . I have proven that the physical is fundamental to mathematics .v

No you have not. Mathematics are fundamental to physics. Explain Physics to me without resorting to mathematics.

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Mathematics is about Understanding Physics . Understanding of Physical Things .

 

[paddoboy]

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Not discredit mathematics , just put mathematics in its place . Behind the Physical .

Mathematics does not need a place. It is the language in which we explain and prove our current model of the universe from the BB to what we see today. Please try and make some sense for a change.
Again, Matter/energy do not exist apart from the spacetime from which it arose.
GR tells us that that what we call spacetime is simply the gravitational field of the universe, and cannot exist apart from the matter/energy that warps/curves and twists that same spacetime creating the effect we see and feel as gravity...

 

[river]

No you have not. Mathematics are fundamental to physics. Explain Physics to me without resorting to mathematics.
That is a statement, not an argument. I have proved that physical things could not exist without mathematical interaction of constituent values, not physical properties.
Physical property https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_property

All physical, chemical, or supervenient properties, ultimately rely on their relational mathematical values and mathematical functions (processes). Any quantification or qualification of universal behaviors must be accompanied by the pertinent mathematics involved. Else, proof cannot be provided.

Proof of physical reality is only possible via mathematics.

There is no other way to make any sense of it at all, unless you want to resort to an even more obscure causality of a mythical Intelligent Designer, which of course is not physical at all either and does not require proof of any kind. Religion advocates for Creation of physical things from Nothing, right?

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To your last statement ;

Disagree

The proof of physical reality is in every day life . Measured or not .

 

[Write4U]

Physics

Bingo! specifically gravity.

Gravity makes spirals? Ot is it the Fibonacci Sequence?

The Role of Mathematics in Science

To the scientist, mathematics is an analytic tool applied to experimental data with the hope of generating a formula that describes some basic tendency of nature. Also mathematics can be used with existing theory to deduce an unknown quantity.

http://chem.lapeer.org/PhysicsDocs/RoleMath.html#

IOW, this "some basic tendency of nature" is to function in accordance with "some specific mathematical formula".
To say; "physics" is a basic tendency of nature", seems wholly inadequate to describe how the universe functions.

This may be due to ignorance on my part, but no one has as yet given a satisfactory counterfactual answer to the OP question, IMHO .

I find this definition very clear and unambiguous.

Chaos Theory

Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the study of chaos—states of dynamical systems whose apparently-random states of disorder and irregularities are often governed by deterministic laws that are highly sensitive to initial conditions.[1][2] Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex (physical) systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization.

(highlight mine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory#

within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex (physical) systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization

All the physical patterns mentioned are in reality mathematical patterns.

Chaos 1.
Defining Chaos: Determinism, Nonlinearity and Sensitive Dependence

Chaos studies have highlighted these implications in fresh ways and led to thinking about other implications as well.

In addition to exhibiting sensitive dependence, chaotic systems possess two other properties: they are deterministic and nonlinear (Smith 2007). This entry discusses systems exhibiting these three properties and what their philosophical implications might be for theories and theoretical understanding, confirmation, explanation, realism, determinism, free will and consciousness, and human and divine action.

The mathematical phenomenon of chaos is studied in sciences as diverse as astronomy, meteorology, population biology, economics and social psychology.

While there are few (if any) causal mechanisms such diverse disciplines have in common, the phenomenological behavior of chaos—e.g., sensitivity to the tiniest changes in initial conditions or seemingly random and unpredictable behavior that nevertheless follows precise rules—appears in many of the models in these disciplines. Observing similar chaotic behavior in such diverse fields certainly presents a challenge to our understanding of chaos as a phenomenon.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chaos/#

It seems apparent then that the universe is a dynamical self-organizing mathematical system, which produces matter in various density patterns and value potentials. If my links are reliable, I cannot find another adequate explanation of Universal properties and behaviors. The term "physics" does not tell me much other than as a generalization of a area of study.

 

[Write4U]

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To your last statement ;
Disagree
The proof of physical reality is in every day life . Measured or not .

That is not an argument against a mathematical universe.

 

[Write4U]

Mathematics does not need a place. It is the language in which we explain and prove our current model of the universe from the BB to what we see today. Please try and make some sense for a change.
Again, Matter/energy do not exist apart from the spacetime from which it arose.
GR tells us that that what we call spacetime is simply the gravitational field of the universe, and cannot exist apart from the matter/energy that warps/curves and twists that same spacetime creating the effect we see and feel as gravity...

And it does all that in accordance to extant relational values and mathematical functions...... IMO ..

Schematic depiction of a function described metaphorically as a "machine" or "black box" that for each input yields a corresponding output.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics)

Question: Does "physics" have identified functions which are not mathematical in essence?
I found this;
Generating function (physics)

In physics, and more specifically in Hamiltonian mechanics, a generating function is, loosely, a function whose partial derivatives generate the differential equations that determine a system's dynamics. Common examples are the partition function of statistical mechanics, the Hamiltonian, and the function which acts as a bridge between two sets of canonical variables when performing a canonical transformation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generating_function_(physics)#

Canonical transformation

For clarity, we restrict the presentation here to calculus and classical mechanics. Readers familiar with more advanced mathematics such as cotangent bundles, exterior derivatives and symplectic manifolds should read the related symplectomorphism article. (Canonical transformations are a special case of a symplectomorphism.) However, a brief introduction to the modern mathematical description is included at the end of this article.

Modern mathematical description

In mathematical terms, canonical coordinates are any coordinates on the phase space (cotangent bundle) of the system that allow the canonical one-form to be written as
{\displaystyle \sum _{i}p_{i}\,dq^{i}}

up to a total differential (exact form). The change of variable between one set of canonical coordinates and another is a canonical transformation.

The index of the

generalized coordinates q is
written here as a superscript ({\displaystyle q^{i}}

), not as a subscript as done above ({\displaystyle q_{i}}

). The superscript conveys the contravariant transformation properties of the generalized coordinates, and does not mean that the coordinate is being raised to a power. Further details may be found at the symplectomorphism article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_transformation

Still mathematical, no?

 

[river]

river said: ↑
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To your last statement ;
Disagree
The proof of physical reality is in every day life . Measured or not .

That is not an argument against a mathematical universe.

True

Its not against mathematics , of the Universe , ( which physical objects imply ) , I make it clear that physical things are the root of mathematics .

 

[Write4U]

True

Its not against mathematics , of the Universe , ( which physical objects imply ) , I make it clear that physical things are the root of mathematics .

I understand your position, but I see this not from a human perspective, but from a objective Universal pespective.

What came first..the chicken or the egg? IMO, the egg, a single cell which was able to duplicate itself, a mathematical function.....

 

[Michael 345]

Gravity makes spirals? Ot is it the Fibonacci Sequence?

Physics makes spirals

Physics makes a Fibonacci Sequence

Physics makes DNA

Physics DOES NOT MAKE MATHEMATICS

Mathematics is a CONCEPT and does not, repeat, does not make or organise, arrange, guide, produce ANYTHING

Mathematics is a constructed language us Minions use to pass on various ideas about how the Universe works

We DO NOT work out a formula and then go looking how to construct a lump of stuff to fit the formula

We DO NOT observe formula laying around and think "That could be useful"

We DO notice a apple falls in a certain direction. To make it easy to pass this information to others we construct a word "down" and may as well label other directions

Coffee break. More explanation if required

 

[paddoboy]

Gravity makes spirals? Ot is it the Fibonacci Sequence?

Yes, gravitational forces related to angular momentum. and density waves.

 

[paddoboy]

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To your last statement ;

Disagree

The proof of physical reality is in every day life . Measured or not .

To your whole post...irrelevant nonsense and wrong to boot.

 

[Michael 345]

Title of thread

Does Chaos Theory prove a Mathematically Ordered Universe ?

I added the question mark to the title, only saw various statements in first post

The statements, as far as I can tell describes observations of how us Minions shrink wrap mathematics around reality but but but SAYS NOTHING ABOUT ANY ABILITY FOR MATHEMATICS TO ORDER THE UNIVERSE

This may be due to ignorance on my part, but no one has as yet given a satisfactory counterfactual answer to the OP question, IMHO .

See above your post above

quasi-intelligent

The above (quasi-intelligent) is your anthropomorphic take on the Universe and is your downfall

There is no other way to make any sense of it at all

Which is why we invented maths

What your thought process sequence implies - god sat down and worked out the mathematics THEN got around to making the Universe to fit the maths

Thought bubble - why didn't he use the metric system?

Need more coffee