Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?
- Thread starter Greatest I am
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Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Ok, so the god from genesis tells MAN that HE cannot eat from the forbidden tree. Never said a thing to EVE about it. :shrug:
Why then is this so-called fall from grace her fault? If she was excluded from the conversation and Adam did not think it was necessary to let her in on that little secret, then he is the one to blame, god neglected his duty in training his humans appropriately, and Eve was just being smart by trying to gain the wisdom this fruit was supposed to impart.
Typical, misogyny at work in all its glory.
And that misogyny has never been taken out of the Abrahamic cults.
That shows what kind of justice system they would create.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
The fact that it matters to you shows that your justice is not blind.
Not a good sign that.
Plato had two types of citizens. Cattle and dogs.
I am a dog at my woman's feet as nature intended.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
The Church father Tertullian explained why women deserve their status as despised and inferior human beings:
"And do you not know that you are an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil's gateway: you are the unsealer of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine law: you are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert that is, death even the Son of God had to die."
Yet. Nothing like poetry in the evening with the wife and kids.
Regards
DL
Does being under supernatural control exonerate Eve of any sin?
Well, shit, I don't know.
Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster responsible for overweight Italians?
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Well ya. We all know that.
Have Christians been using that story as well to deny women equality forever?
Regards
DL
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
How are you supposed to tell the difference between biblical metaphors and literalism? I mean what's the lesson by saying Eve caused the Fall? Women can't be trusted? What's the lesson by saying she came from Adam's rib? That men are superior? What does it mean when it says we shouldn't suffer a witch to live? ...that bitchy women that curse you behind your back need to be murdered? Jesus said we are to become as children, so how can we help but being naive?
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Innocent is not naïve and Jesus liked to teach in simple terms and by children, I think he meant with an open mind.
You cannot seek God with a closed mind or if like Christians, you idol worship a Godinabook.
Regards
DL
so the question is:
Was Eve under supernatural control?
God setting up circumstances does not infer he had supernatural control of Eve, if he had supernatural control of Eve why would he need to set up the circumstances?
you don't believe in free will.
this is the only reason God would set up circumstances like this, otherwise he would just make her do what he wants her to do without all the deception.
again was Eve under supernatural control?
Bells
Staff member
There are a lot of factors behind denying women equality, Eve is just a minute part of it. I think to say it was because of Eve's sin of seeking knowledge and now bowing to every whim of 'the Father' is overly simplistic.
You would also have to discuss which brand of Christianity you are basing this accusation from. Catholics, certainly, if you factor in the controls they wish to impose on the bodies of women and the fact that they refuse to allow women to be priests, which in this day and age is a tad silly, since other Christian denomination moved away from the strictly male and paternalistic attitudes quite a while ago. And women in those Churches are not consigned to roles that simply serve in a submissive fashion, but to become leaders within the Church, which was historically consigned to men.
To be honest, the blame should be placed at Paul's feet. He was the one who stated that man came first and women second, from man and who blamed Eve for corrupting 'the man', so to speak.
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
It seems clear in the wording of this myth that God thought that Eve was indeed under supernatural control.
Gen 3;13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,". (used the beguiling powers I stupidly gave you).
God agreed that the serpent had beguiled Eve. Animals do not speak. The serpent speaking shows clearly that it was controlled by an outside force. That was either God or Satan. The beguiler is the guilty one and in this myth it is Satan. If we put the Jewish spin to it we see that Satan is Lilith, as depicted in Vatican art. The Christian version in any case. These are all archetypes.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
We will not argue much and I agree that my brush is wide but it is not just the religions who are doing the denying. It is all good people who do not act.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
Your Paul remark is why I follow the esoteric Gnostic Jesus. He is a Universalist and equality is understood for all his brethren Gods and Goddesses.
Regards
DL
I have explained my position on the adam and eve story here years ago..
reader digest version:
God needed to set up adam and eve like this to show adam and eve that they had free will, that they did not have to obey God, that it as possible to disobey God.
the expulsion from the garden was a reward, without the expulsion we would continue to rely on God for our decisions, to not take responsibility for our actions, (why should we, everything we need is provided in the garden)
Now that you know you have free will and that you are capable of disobeying me, go forth and exert your free will, I will be there always to advise you to the proper course of action but the choice will always be yours as well as the consequences of your choices, no longer should you blame me for the consequences of your own actions, but you must learn to hold yourself accountable for your own actions.
<this is paraphrasing several scriptures in the bible and combined, don't ask me to quote verses as there are way too many to quote that intones such a thing.>
If there were supernatural control over eve (meaning she had no choice but to eat the apple regardless of her desire) this would be meaningless, it would only mean that free will does not exist, and the project would be meaningless since the whole intent was to show them they had free will.
what else could the purpose be? to show God is in control? they already knew that. they didn't have to go through all that to learn God is in control, this was the default attitude, God needed to show them they had control, that they had free will.
how else would God show them this?
so again I argue that eve was not under any supernatural control, the decision was hers to make. she had a choice, and she made it.
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Your logic is quite sound and the Jewish version agrees with you.
This is not the Jewish version though. It is the mess/fall that Christianity made with the Jewish version.
As you say, Eve had to do the right thing. Yet God is still shown as punishing here and all of us.
That is the issue I wish to have Christians justify and they have yet to do so.
Regards
DL
I wish I was a woman!
I believe the story of Eve and her 'sin' comes from her temptation of Adam. I think we all know what I'm writing about here...
I believe the story of Eve and her 'sin' comes from her temptation of Adam. I think we all know what I'm writing about here...
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
I wish I was a woman!
I believe the story of Eve and her 'sin' comes from her temptation of Adam. I think we all know what I'm writing about here...
Eden is a mental quest and rite of passage when read from a Jewish POV. Christianity turned our elevation into a fall so I am not surprised that you would think sexual instead of mental.
Regards
DL
barcelonic
Registered Senior Member
Also, surely when God created Adam & Eve he wanted them or their kin to commit incest, despite later claiming it to be a sin.
This seems plain mad to me!!
But yes it's a good OP and my first thought is that surely mens rea can have nothing to do with sin because according to most Christians we are all born sinners.
If somebody can be born a sinner then there cannot be any requirement for mens rea.
This seems plain mad to me!!
But yes it's a good OP and my first thought is that surely mens rea can have nothing to do with sin because according to most Christians we are all born sinners.
If somebody can be born a sinner then there cannot be any requirement for mens rea.
We have two sides of the brain, left and right hemispheres. Each side of the brain processes data in different ways. The left is more differential, while the right is more integral. Differentiation in math finds the slope at a point on the curve; specific. While integration is the area under the curve from a to b. This sums a wide range of points.
The left brain is more linear and logical and differentiates in terms of correspondence to data to a specific slope/angle. The right brain is more spatial and integrates via 3-D concepts like symbolism. Symbolism is more open (many points within one symbol) instead of of one linear or specific correspondence. The bible was written with the right brain in mind. This makes it hard for the left brained atheists, who are trained to see linear/logical and not integrate data via symbols.
What Adam and Eve symbolized was the differentiation of will power and choice, apart from God or natural instinct. They marked the transition from the original right brain of human instinct, into the left brain of individual differentiation. The right brain is spatial making instinct more flexible/adaptive; omnivores. It also makes one feel the need to merge with larger collectives since these are more 3-D.
The right brain, was not about the ego. The ego is differential and left brained. Genesis was predominately geared to right brained people, since the left brain POV was very new. Eve choosing the tree of knowledge of good and evil first, shows the female developed the left brain before the males, with the males staying in 3-D longer.
Women are often the ones who maintain all the details of traditions, like holidays. These traditions can be very exacting in details which requires the left brain so the slope of each point is exact. Eve, by being female, would prefer a cultural way that is more defined and laid out in terms of cause and effect. This was knowledge of good and evil which can be memorized and perfected. She was not too keen on spatial and improvisation.
Most pioneers are men, since more men can improvise in the field apart from their linear learning, which will break down. This requires conscious right brain access. The female is less likely to pioneer, alone, outside the box, but would prefer education to generate procedures as far as the wall of the box. Eve chose knowledge of good and evil, instead of the improvise nature of the tree of life, since her left brain access was her trump card.
Relative to the bible, you need people who can translate via the right brain to gain the proper meanings. Since this approach is more masculine, masculine leadership has been the tradition that is handed down. If translation was done by the left brained, it would get linear and not be a living document; stuck inside the wall forever. Once the atheists reduce the bible to linear, it no longer makes any sense to them. The bible was designed to remain spatial and always outside the box so pioneers in each generation can find new meanings. While the faithful feel outside the box with their faith. This helps keep the right brain conscious.
The left brain is more linear and logical and differentiates in terms of correspondence to data to a specific slope/angle. The right brain is more spatial and integrates via 3-D concepts like symbolism. Symbolism is more open (many points within one symbol) instead of of one linear or specific correspondence. The bible was written with the right brain in mind. This makes it hard for the left brained atheists, who are trained to see linear/logical and not integrate data via symbols.
What Adam and Eve symbolized was the differentiation of will power and choice, apart from God or natural instinct. They marked the transition from the original right brain of human instinct, into the left brain of individual differentiation. The right brain is spatial making instinct more flexible/adaptive; omnivores. It also makes one feel the need to merge with larger collectives since these are more 3-D.
The right brain, was not about the ego. The ego is differential and left brained. Genesis was predominately geared to right brained people, since the left brain POV was very new. Eve choosing the tree of knowledge of good and evil first, shows the female developed the left brain before the males, with the males staying in 3-D longer.
Women are often the ones who maintain all the details of traditions, like holidays. These traditions can be very exacting in details which requires the left brain so the slope of each point is exact. Eve, by being female, would prefer a cultural way that is more defined and laid out in terms of cause and effect. This was knowledge of good and evil which can be memorized and perfected. She was not too keen on spatial and improvisation.
Most pioneers are men, since more men can improvise in the field apart from their linear learning, which will break down. This requires conscious right brain access. The female is less likely to pioneer, alone, outside the box, but would prefer education to generate procedures as far as the wall of the box. Eve chose knowledge of good and evil, instead of the improvise nature of the tree of life, since her left brain access was her trump card.
Relative to the bible, you need people who can translate via the right brain to gain the proper meanings. Since this approach is more masculine, masculine leadership has been the tradition that is handed down. If translation was done by the left brained, it would get linear and not be a living document; stuck inside the wall forever. Once the atheists reduce the bible to linear, it no longer makes any sense to them. The bible was designed to remain spatial and always outside the box so pioneers in each generation can find new meanings. While the faithful feel outside the box with their faith. This helps keep the right brain conscious.
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Thanks for the kudos. Theists are always saying the opposite and as I am poorly educated, it is good to hear such from an intelligent mind.
To your last.
This is true. That is why God hated Esau even in the womb before he could do good or evil.
With God, even the insane are guilty be they aware of what they do or not.
Regards
DL
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