Do you think Mormons are true Christians?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Alan McDougall, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. Alan McDougall Alan McDougall Registered Senior Member

    Do you think that Mormons are true Christians, their beliefs fundamentally differ from most Christian doctine, for instance they believe that god is an exalted man of flesh and bone who came to earth from another planet in the universe and became the god of this world


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  3. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

    And that an angel delivered some golden tablets, which the founder hid. Then they couldn't be shown because they were 'stolen'. The certain sect could also have many wives for certain sex.
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  5. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    They also have magic underwear!
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  7. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Mormons claim as part of there faith black people being cursed.

    Do they truly believe this?
  8. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

    I don't know, but those who make things up are ever wandering without a basis—a useless endeavor.
  9. mathman Valued Senior Member

    I am not a Christian. I have the impression that any individual or group can claim to be a Christian, even if they don't accept the divinity of Christ, as long as they profess to follow his teachings. The Mormons accept the divinity of Christ.
  10. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    I assume their base is to find God them being the mormon followers. The mormon founders, sinister, possibly, given their attitude towards a race of man.
  11. Alan McDougall Alan McDougall Registered Senior Member


    Years ago two young Mormon missionaries (who call themselves Elders) came to my home in South Africa where I lived at the time. I was a total atheist and they did nothing to alter that standing. They told me they agreed with the South African Afrikaner philosophy of Apartheid (Which means Separateness) and that black people were inferior to white people I was informed by them that the native Americans or Red Indians were a lost tribe of the early Mormon ancestors who had sinned and disobeyed God and as punishment they were cursed and their skin darkened by god as a result. I was never a racialist and was completely appalled that an American could say this to me in South Africa!

    Of course if you ask them this today, they will lie about, they constantly change and update their beliefs, have no real official doctrine and latter day prophets can correct the errors of former ones. So black people are now allowed into that cult, not knowing that according to the founders such as Joseph Smith black people were accursed race and might be the children of Lucifer, who according to them is the blood brother of Jesus.

    Jesus is the result of sexual intercourse between the mother of Jesus Mary and this god of flesh and bone from another planet!!

    Much more nonsense than this and you Amerecans might be choosing someone who believes this garbage as your next president, my question is how can an intelligent person believe the absolute nonsense of the cult he he is a member of he is fooling the American people to their peril I think!
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Interesting point. Here are some of the details about racism among the Latter Day Saints.

    I wouldn't consider this too far from European Christianity in regards to racism. Perhaps it's just a little more open. The other Christians of that era were openly professing human rights while, on the hand, kidnapping, torturing and murdering Africans in the slave trade. Obviously there were many abolitionists, and many of them applied Christian morality in denouncing it. Still, the world saw some of the worst genocides (indigenous people of the Americas) in history under the banner of (principally) Protestant and Catholic beliefs. So that's a key fact that leaves the churches scrambling for apologetics, to rationalize the ongoing insanity of allowing church doctrine to influence public policy.

    It's a bizarre legacy, one that has left the modern world in disarray. Had the Boers and Brits not been Christians, of one flavor or another, apartheid maybe never would have happened. At least rationalizing white supremacy based on a "curse" from Bible legend wouldn't have added fuel to the fire.

    More simply put, if the Europeans had respected the sovereignty and rights of Africans and other indigenous people, they would never have invaded and colonized their lands to begin with. Africa would not have been carved up as was in the past, say by the end of WWII. Genocide, massacres, insurrections, and wars probably would have been avoided. Sick policies, like apartheid, never would have happened.

    All of this weighs very heavily against Christianity since it bears an unusual burden for its harm on a global scale during the Imperialist eras. But most notably the racist policies Christians touted under the false persona of piety and grace has left an indelible scar on the surviving native population as well as the descendants of slaves.

    Ironically the two great leaders of the movements to end the oppression were both black Christians, Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King. They were very effective in proving to white Christians the hypocrisy of centuries of abuses.

    As for Mormons in politics, I wouldn't worry too much about the stereotype. Most racists are bigots who get by on pretenses anyway. I would be equally suspicious of any candidate for being a privileged white Christian. I would have suspected Barack Obama's motives for joining a Christian church except for the explanation he gave in his second book. He explains that his mother, a cultural anthropologist, had introduced him to world religions while quite young. It's evident that he made the choice he did with a far superior set of information to guide him than most believers begin with. That alone--fact-checking--is the one of the hallmarks of a true leader.

    I think your question, about why Americans would elect a particular candidate, is important. The voters get what they deserve. For the large part, they vote irresponsibly, with little information or desire to understand current affairs.

    Finally, racism is not limited to Christians. They just have a huge share of the burden while rationalizing their atrocities under some presumed mandate, or curse, from God.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  13. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    I think they do agree with the basic Christian doctrines.
  14. Cavalier Knight of the Opinion Registered Senior Member

    I know many Mormons, and while they have a lot of quirks (not believing in the trinity, for example, but believing instead that the father, son and holy spirit are separate and distinct entities), they do believe that Jesus is the divine son of the father (conceived most believe, contrary to some claims byy people looking to attack Mormonism, without the need for God the Father to have sex with Mary) and that his death on the cross atones for our sins and makes salvation possible.

    That sounds "Christian" under a broad definition of that term, and even under many of the possible narrow ones. You might define it narrowly enough to exclude them, but you can't expect them to agree to your definition in that case.
  15. Crowd Chaser Registered Member

    Simply put: you are a Christian if you worship Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Catholics are Christian. Mormons are Christian. Popular U.S. Christianity is comprised of Baptists and Protestants.
  16. Alan McDougall Alan McDougall Registered Senior Member

    Their Christ is not divine according to them he is the outcome of physical sexual intercourse between their god that is a man of flesh and bone from another planet that became the god of this world only. Each planet in the universe has its own god, so then let us ask them who created the whole universe and who was the cause of existence?

    I pose this question as a person that believes that an infinite being created all existence.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  17. Alan McDougall Alan McDougall Registered Senior Member


    1. Why does the Mormon Church still teach that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God after he made a false prophecy about a temple being built in Missouri in his generation (Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5)?

    2. Since the time when Brigham Young taught that both the moon and the sun were inhabited by people, has the Mormon Church ever found scientific evidence of that to be true (Journal of Discourses, 1870, v.13, p.271)?

    3. Why did Brigham Young teach that Adam is “our Father and our God” when both the Bible and the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:12) say that Adam is a creation of God (Journal of Discourses, Apr. 9, 1852, vol.1, p.50)?

    4. If Brigham Young was a true prophet, how come one of your later prophets overturned his declaration which stated that the black man could never hold the priesthood in the LDS Church until after the resurrection of all other races (Journal of Discourses, Dec. 12, 1854, 2:142-143)?

    5. Since the Bible’s test to determine whether someone is a true prophet of God is 100% accuracy in all his prophecies (Deuteronomy 18:20-22), has the LDS Church ever reconsidered its teaching that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were true prophets?

    6. Since the current LDS prophets sometimes contradict the former ones, how do you decide which one is correct?

    7. Since there are several different contradictory accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision, how did the LDS Church choose the correct one?

    8. Can you show me in the Bible the LDS teaching that we must all stand before Joseph Smith on the Day of Judgment?

    Mormon Scripture

    9. Can you show me archeological and historical proof from non-Mormon sources that prove that the peoples and places named in the Book of Mormon are true?

    10. If the words “familiar spirit” in Isaiah 29:4 refer to the Book of Mormon, why do familiar spirits always refer to occult practices such as channeling and necromancy everywhere else in the Old Testament?

    11. Why did Joseph Smith condone polygamy as an ordinance from God (Doctrine and Covenants 132) when the Book of Mormon had already condemned the practice (Jacob 1:15, 2:24)?

    12. Why were the words “white and delightsome” in 2 Nephi 30:6 changed to “pure and delightsome” right on the heels of the Civil Rights campaign for blacks?

    13. If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?

    14. Why did God encourage Abraham & Sarah to lie in Abraham 2:24? Isn’t lying a sin according to the 10 commandments? Why did God tell Abraham and Sarah to lie when 2 Nephi 9:34 condemns liars to hell?

    15. Why does the Book of Mormon state that Jesus was born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) when history and the Bible state that he was born outside of Jerusalem, in Bethlehem?

    16. If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4000 changes from the original 1830 edition?

    17. If the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness of the everlasting gospel”, why does the LDS Church need additional works?

    18. If the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness of the everlasting gospel”, why doesn’t it say anything about so many important teachings such as eternal progression, celestial marriage, the Word of Wisdom, the plurality of Gods, the pre-existence of man, our mother in heaven, baptism for the dead, etc?

    19. Why do you baptize for the dead when both Mosiah 3:25 and the Bible state that there is no chance of salvation after death?

    20. Since the word grace means a free gift that can’t be earned, why does the Book of Mormon state “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)?

    21. Does the LDS Church still regard the Pearl of Great Price as Holy Scripture even after several prominent Egyptologists proved it was an ancient funeral scroll?

    22. Why does the Book of Abraham, chapters 4 & 5, contradict Alma 11 in stating that there is more than one God?

    23. Why does Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 say there is no forgiveness for a murderer when 3 Nephi 30:2 says there is forgiveness for him?

    24. If the Adam-God doctrine isn’t true, how come Doctrine and Covenants 27:11 calls Adam the Ancient of Days which is clearly a title for God in Daniel chapter 7?

    25. Why does the Book of Mormon contain extensive, word-for-word quotes from the Bible if the LDS Church is correct in teaching that the Bible has been corrupted?

    26. Why do the Bible verses quoted in the Book of Mormon contain the italicized words from the King James Version that were added into the KJV text by the translators in the 16th and 17th centuries?

    27. If the Book of Mormon was engraved on gold plates thousands of years ago, why does it read in perfect 1611 King James Version English?

    Bible Questions

    28. If marriage is essential to achieve exaltation, why did Paul say that it is good for a man not to marry (1 Corinthians 7:1)?

    29. Since the Word of Wisdom teaches us to abstain from alcohol, why did Paul encourage Timothy to drink wine for his stomach (1 Timothy 5:23)?

    30. If obeying the Word of Wisdom - which tells us to abstain from caffeine, alcohol and tobacco - is important for our exaltation, why did Jesus say that there is nothing that can enter a man to make him defiled (Mark 7:15)?

    31. If Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and Elohim is referred to as God in the Old Testament, can you explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to me: “Hear, O Israel: the LORD (Jehovah) our God (Elohim) is one LORD (Jehovah)?

    32. Why does the Mormon Church teach that we can be married in heaven when Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 that in the resurrection men neither marry, nor are they given in marriage?

    33. How can worthy Mormon males become Gods in the afterlife when God already said that before him no God was formed, nor will there be any Gods formed after him (Isaiah 43:10)?

    34. If God had a father who was a God, how come Isaiah 44:8 says that he doesn’t know him?

    35. If God was once just a man who progressed to becoming a God, how do you explain Psalm 90:2: “…even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God”?

    36. How can God be an exalted man when Numbers 23:19 says that God is not a man?

    37. Why does the Mormon Church teach that Elohim/god had sexual relations with Mary to produce Jesus when both Matthew and Luke teach she was a virgin (The Seer, January, 1853, p.158)?

    38. Why does the LDS Church teach that Jesus paid for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane when 1 Peter 2:24 says it was on the cross?

    39. Why did Bruce McConkie write that a man may commit a sin so grievous that it will place him beyond the atoning blood of Christ (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p.93) when the Bible says that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7)?

    40. Why does the LDS Church teach that man first existed as spirits in heaven when 1 Corinthians 15:46 says that the physical body comes before the spiritual?

    41. Since Jesus statement, “Be ye therefore perfect” (Matthew 5:48) is in the present tense, are you perfect right now? Do you expect to be perfect soon? According to Hebrews 10:14, how are we made perfect?

    42. Why do Mormons say the sticks in Ezekiel 37 represent the Bible and the Book of Mormon when Ezekiel 37:20-22 tells us that the sticks represent two nations, not two books?

    43. Why does the LDS Church teach that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers when both the first chapter of John and Colossians teach that Jesus is the Creator of all things, including Lucifer?

    44. Why do worthy Mormon males hold the Aaronic priesthood since Hebrews 7:11-12 clearly teaches that it was changed and superceded by something better?

    45. If your leaders are correct about the complete falling away of the true church on earth, was Jesus in error when he said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18)?


    46. If having a physical body is necessary to become a god, how did Jesus become a god before he had a body?

    47. Do you think the LDS Church will reconsider its teachings that the American Indians are descendants of the Jewish race now that DNA evidence has proven that they are actually descendants of the Asian race?

    48. If polygamy was officially re-instituted by the Mormon Church, how would your wife feel about you taking another woman?

    49. Since the LDS Church teaches that there was a complete apostasy of the true church on earth, does that mean that the 3 living Nephites and the Apostle John went into apostasy also?

    50. Why are Mormon Temple ceremonies secret to the public when the Old Testament temple ceremonies were open to public knowledge?

    Much more Mit Romney believes this but he has a right to believe what helikes to believe
  18. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

    There seems to be anti-Mormon bias in many posts to this thread. As an atheist I do not accept Mormon beliefs any more than I accept the beliefs of other theist religions. At least the Mormons neither ran heinous inquisitions nor burned so-called witches at the stake.

    BTW: The Mormons were driven west by Christians who justified their persecution by lying about Mormon behavior. Apparently claiming that they were not Christians was not sufficient to gain wide spread support for the mistreatment of Mormons.

    The LDS beliefs do not seem any less credible than the beliefs of most Christian sects. What religion worries much about historical accuracy when it is inconsistent with faith based theology & stories?

    Christianity & various other religions have an advantage over LDS theology because most other religious books were written so long ago that nobody can find historical evidence which contradicts the stories told in those books.

    LDS has an interesting advantage in the concept of ongoing revelation. The current leader can claim that god has changed the rules. Christianity & other religions try to ignore some of their historical rules/beliefs or else come up with tortured explanations for why they do not mean what the semantics seem to say.

    Many atheists have come up with lists of rules/beliefs no longer acceptable by modern Christians. Similarly, the Mormons have some rules/beliefs no longer acceptable in modern times. At least the Mormons admit they are changing the rules.
  19. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Historically, only until recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations which Joseph Smith said were, ". . .all wrong...all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19)
    In the past Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years the LDS church has spend millions in an intense public relations campaign aimed at moving their church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in their proselyting the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present themselves as Christians and trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.

    Hopefully, this article will help the both Mormons and non-Mormons to see that Mormonism worships a different god and Jesus Christ and not the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible. The Constitution of the United States gives every citizen the right of freedom of religion and the LDS people have the right to believe as they desire. However, biblical Christians also have the right to defend their historic faith as revealed in the Bible and expose those who misuse their historic name.

    This article, by presenting what God has said about who He is and His attributes, will show that the god of Mormonism is not God, our Creator, as He has revealed Himself in the Bible. The Bible's answer to the question, "Are Mormons Christians?" is simple: "They are not biblical Christians because their beliefs and teaching are contrary to what the Bible teaches and this reveals them to be a "Christian" cult."

    A cult is a defined as a religion that uses the name of an astablished religion but changes its beliefs, practices, and terms. Cults often claim superiority over the historic faith.

    The Mormon Church proudly declares they are Christians and their church bears the name of Jesus Christ, but the fact is they believe in a different Jesus Christ and god and not Jesus Christ who is our Creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17). This was confirmed by LDS Prophet Gordan B. Hinckley on June 4th, 1998 in a speech in Paris, France when he stated that those outside the the LDS Church who say that Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ" were correct. He further stated:

    "The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak as been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the matters of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages." (Church News, June 20, 1998, p70)
  20. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Seems pretty simple. If a religion believe that Jesus is a diety of somesort they are christians. Christians of one sect or another seem to enjoy the game of saying other sects are 'not true christians'. From someone outside of all of that, it is pretty easy to see the obvious truth, they are all christains and all have varing levels of differences.

    As far as pointing out inconsistencies in Mormon writings - well that is easy to do with any religion, they all have pretty glaring contridictions.
  21. mathman Valued Senior Member

    This is slightly off message. Are Unitarians Christians? My understanding is that they don't accept the divinity of Christ, but follow his teachings.
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Unitarianism is an offshoot of Christianity. They don't believe in the Trinity, but from the standpoint of us outsiders, they're still monotheists and they still follow the really good teachings in the New Testament about turning the other cheek and not throwing stones at each other. This distinguishes them from the Jews and Muslims. From our perspective they're still Christians, as are the Mormons.

    But Unitarian Universalism is another movement. They are theists but not followers of Jesus. In fact they don't stress dogma. They just want people to help each other and get along. I've got no problem with that. An atheist could join one of their congregations and they might argue with him occasionally, but as long as he believed in helping people and getting along, and actually lived it rather than just talking about it, they'd welcome him and not spend much time discussing theology.

    They remind me a little of the Rastafarians, who are also an offshoot of Christianity but don't appear to put a lot of effort into dogma. They have a very worldly agenda: peace and brotherhood. Oh, and ganja. (If anyone actually understands the Rastafarian creed, feel free to step in here and enlighten everybody!)
  23. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Rastafarians believe that Jesus has returned to earth. He returned as Haile Selassie, the deceased leader of Ethiopia. They also believe that the pope is satan.

    That is some good ganja they are smoking!

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