Do We Need the Wisdom of the East ?

[spidergoat]

I am not denying that there may be personal benefits for those who indulge in the practices you mention but I do question whether anything that is universally applicable can be discovered.

As far as wisdom is concerned I was asking what the East has to offer that is not available in the Western Intellectual Tradition, which is essentially a question of philosophy.

You know, I think we are actually getting somewhere here. To address the first quote: No, there is nothing universally applicable in the essential teachings of Buddhism. That being said, it does describe an underlying moral code which is debatably useful for society. But basically, what Buddhism and Zen describe is a practice of personal transformation. Part of this practice is to go beyond the kind of knowledge that can be gained using words, at least in a deliberate, reasoned, literal fashion. They can be used like poetry to elude to something just out of their reach. This something can only be experienced, it's called insight or satori.

Once this happens, all your future actions spring from this source, but to answer the second question: it cannot be called a philosophy. That is, it is not a body of reasoned verbal knowledge that can be remembered by anyone then called upon as the situtation requires. This kind of knowledge has a limited application. In the infinite universe, we cannot predict every situation, and so we must be able to generate the appropriate response spontaneously. Eastern wisdom is not the body of so-called wisdom about the practice as contained in books. It's a method of liberation from conditioned responses. It's not adding something to your mind, it's taking away.

 

[Myles]

We underestimate suffering.

I don't know how to respond to this. Have you seen terminally ill people in hospices and care homes ? Have you seen young people dying of obscene diseases. I spent months seeing a young girl shaking uncontrollably several months before she died. There ate millions of people in the world dying of starvation. You must have sen pictiures of little children with distended stomachs, crying for food. Need I go on ?

I think we ignore suffering. And I jut don't know how to respond to you when you say you regard boredom as suffering. Sounds more like self-pity.

For one, Smallpox isn't banished. They still have some samples of it in labs.
For two, the process of developing medications requires a lot of research, resources and equipment, a lot of testing -and failings-, and produces pollution.

That is a facile response. Do you know of people dying of smallpox ?
So we stop producing medicines and injest herbs ? Try telling that to a seriously ill person.
To say nothing of the fact that the widespread use of antibiotics produced new strains of resistant bacteria. TB is on the rise again.




Nowaydays, it is. But it wasn't always so.

Cn you support that statement with evidence ?


I do not care a straw for the "total picture". When my health is at stake, I don't care if the treatment is prescribed to me is 95% effective. If it fails, it fails on me and it matters not to me if it worked on millions of other people.

I was beginning to get a picture of you as afairly decent sort of person but the statement above shows you are a totally self-centred individual. You don't care that a course of treatment cures 95% of sufferers if you are not included in that number.

If you are ever unfortunate enough to get a serious disease, where will you turn for help ? Will you ask for a cast-iron guarantee that any treatment you are offered will be effective ? Or have you something else in mind, One thing I can guarantee is that you will redefine suffering.

This is what we tell ourselves, yes.



I didn't say that.
What had you in mind ? How would people's behaviour change ?


I do not think such comparisons are meaningful.

Suggest some alternatives

One of the first things I have learned when introduced both to Christianity, as well as Western Philosophy was that my happiness does not matter. That it is a trifle, something for the stupid.

I think my views on Christianity are known to you by now

Which major philosophers claim that personal happiness is not important ?



Read some Sartre, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche.

I have read Sartre and Nietsche.


In being flimsy about it. When people say "Life's a bitch and then you die" or "Everything is relative".In acting as if "anything will do".

Don't you understand that much of that talk kis a form of defence mechanism ?

One thing I have learned from the "East" is to have respect for happiness.

I don't really kno what it meas to say that one respects happiness.

 

[greenberg]

Myles -

Do you suspect that the "Westerners" who are embracing some "Eastern" teachings and practices, are abandoning reason?

 

[Avatar]

Over the years I have seen many books devoted to what is loosely regarded as the Wisdom of the East. I have read a few books on the subject without finding anything I would regard as wise that cannot be found in the Western Intellectual Tradition.

Am I missing something ?

The question is - Do we want to be wise?
Wisdom has no East or West.

 

[Myles]

Myles -

Do you suspect that the "Westerners" who are embracing some "Eastern" teachings and practices, are abandoning reason?

It depends on the teaching. From what I know I would say such people are abandoning reason.

 

[Myles]

The question is - Do we want to be wise?
Wisdom has no East or West.

Try telling that to those who would have us believe that the East has a superior sort of reason to offer. Ask Greenberg !

 

[spidergoat]

It isn't reason, as I explained. But neither is there any compulsion to abandon reason, it's just something different.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

We definitely need the "wisdom of the East" because at least it brings fresh thoughts to an old Orthodox way of thinking. The fusion of the Eastern and Western civilizations is meant to be the peak of human experience; as it merges opposite cultures to become one and only true human culture.

 

[Avatar]

There are many more than two cultures, even within Europe.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

There are many more than two cultures, even within Europe.

but you can easily divide them in 2 mentalities, eastern or western. Eastern is more of a passive culture, western is aggresive. That is the reason why Jainism and Buddhism had stayed in the East for so long, no revolutions or conquests; and Christianity has been imposed on almost every culture on Earth.
Western religions like Islam and Christianity have been obsessed with conquering everybody since the beggining and they continue to do so. Eastern traditions like Buddhism and Jainism have been known only for their attraction, not because they have been imposed on anybody. On the contrary, Eastern traditions have only been known recently in the west because of globalization, and not because they have conquered lands to convert people to their traditions.

Western is male and Eastern is female consciousness... I´m talking about that merge of 2 cultures.

 

[Myles]

but you can easily divide them in 2 mentalities, eastern or western. Eastern is more of a passive culture, western is aggresive. That is the reason why Jainism and Buddhism had stayed in the East for so long, no revolutions or conquests; and Christianity has been imposed on almost every culture on Earth.
Western religions like Islam and Christianity have been obsessed with conquering everybody since the beggining and they continue to do so. Eastern traditions like Buddhism and Jainism have been known only for their attraction, not because they have been imposed on anybody. On the contrary, Eastern traditions have only been known recently in the west because of globalization, and not because they have conquered lands to convert people to their traditions.

Western is male and Eastern is female consciousness... I´m talking about that merge of 2 cultures.

Don't turn this into a thread on religion. For me, the Western Intellectual Intellectual Tradition stretches from the time of Plato to the present day. Western philosophy is not about wars and conquest; it has virtually nothing to say on the subject. What it has done is to spawn science which is an offshoot of what was known as natural philosophy. It has shaped our society.

Eastern philosophy can make no such claims. It seems to be mostly about escaping reincarnation in one way or another. This was particularly useful in India with its caste system. If you were an untouchable it was attributed to actions in a former existence. This type of belief leads to passivity when dealing with the problems of humanity. If someone is a cripple, it's his own fault and so on. The "agressive" West did not take such things lying down. We developed medicine, we improved the quality of life and we continue to do so.

I don't need reminding that we also developed dreadful weapons but history suggests that there is a price to be paid for every advance.

I am a great admirer of Gandhi. He got rid of the British in India without resorting to aggression. He had a largely Western education and was a man of action.

 

[Avatar]

but you can easily divide them in 2 mentalities,

Not really. There are quite different mentalities even between Latvians and Lithuanians, not even speaking about the great differences between Spaniards and Russians. There are no two mentalities and no two cultures. You are simplifying to the extreme, a colourful picture turning into black and white, but it ain't so.

Yes, due to globalization all cultures are mixing probably more than ever, but it's not two cultures, no in and jan.

So - I agree to not agree with your simplistic picture.

 

[Myles]

You know, I think we are actually getting somewhere here. To address the first quote: No, there is nothing universally applicable in the essential teachings of Buddhism. That being said, it does describe an underlying moral code which is debatably useful for society. But basically, what Buddhism and Zen describe is a practice of personal transformation. Part of this practice is to go beyond the kind of knowledge that can be gained using words, at least in a deliberate, reasoned, literal fashion. They can be used like poetry to elude to something just out of their reach. This something can only be experienced, it's called insight or satori.

Once this happens, all your future actions spring from this source, but to answer the second question: it cannot be called a philosophy. That is, it is not a body of reasoned verbal knowledge that can be remembered by anyone then called upon as the situtation requires. This kind of knowledge has a limited application. In the infinite universe, we cannot predict every situation, and so we must be able to generate the appropriate response spontaneously. Eastern wisdom is not the body of so-called wisdom about the practice as contained in books. It's a method of liberation from conditioned responses. It's not adding something to your mind, it's taking away.

I'll think about what you are saying. Would William Blake, poet and mystic , fit the bill ?

 

[kmguru]

"Tantra is that Asian body of beliefs and practices which, working from the principle that the universe we experience is nothing other than the concrete manifestation of the divine energy of the Godhead that creates and maintains that universe, seeks to ritually appropriate and channel that energy, within the human microcosm, in creative and emancipatory ways".

When I read this, the first thought came to mind is...you guessed it...The Matrix, and if you could not guess, there is still hope for you at the end of this world....

 

[kmguru]

What it has done is to spawn science which is an offshoot of what was known as natural philosophy. It has shaped our society.

Eastern philosophy can make no such claims. It seems to be mostly about escaping reincarnation in one way or another.

Yes, it seems that way. But reality is different. Had it not for Columbus who wanted to find rich India so bad...and the western people invading the natives, the America that may not have been and everyone in Europe would be singing Hi Hitler now!

The Eastern Philosophy is more than reincarnation. It is about a continuous civilization against all invasion. It is about living in hamony with nature. It is about food, shelter and medicine.

Do you know that specific foods are eaten specific times of the year to provide the exact nutrients that the body needs? Do you know that western pharma is trying to patent Neem, Turmeric and many other plant extracts that have been used thousands of years?

The Europeans definitely developed a large chunk of science. The colder the place, more stuff came out of it. It is called necessity is the mother of invention....if you do not need it, why bother.

And that was a mistake in the later version of the Eastern Philosophy including in the China where a certain king ignored a blue water navy, because he was happy with his concubines. Otherwise today, you would be speaking Chinese.

The Eastern Philosophy got corrupted since about 800 BC. When people are happy and prosperous, the idiots rise to the top and mess up the society - which is happening now to USA. Just wait 30 years when USA will no longer be sustainable. It is definitely not the fault of the core American way of life. But the same type of people that you will blame, you will find them in the Eastern Hemisphere too.

Deep down, people are the same everywhere. It is just that Eastern Philosophy allows to maintain the social dignity for a very long time...that is why, when I started this sub-forum, I told everybody, it is all about "Sanatana Dharma" - The Eternal Way of Life. A life style that can last mankind for eternity.

If you can beat that, then that is Sanatana Dharma by any other name..

 

[Myles]

Yes, it seems that way. But reality is different. Had it not for Columbus who wanted to find rich India so bad...and the western people invading the natives, the America that may not have been and everyone in Europe would be singing Hi Hitler now!

What is the relevance of this point ? It is pure conjecture. Have you forgotten about Amerigo Vespucci, Cortez and others. One could equally argue that if Hitler had not been born, things might be different today but in what way it is impossible to say.


The Eastern Philosophy is more than reincarnation. It is about a continuous civilization against all invasion. It is about living in hamony with nature. It is about food, shelter and medicine.

Some of it doubtless is but I think you are painting with too broad a brush. I think the living ijn harmony with Nature bit was essentially for the nobled/intellectuals. I cannoy see how one can live in harmony with Nature if there is insufficient food to go around. Philosophy of whatever kind depends on a full belly. Someone who is hungry has one thought on his mind, food.


Do you know that specific foods are eaten specific times of the year to provide the exact nutrients that the body needs? Do you know that western pharma is trying to patent Neem, Turmeric and many other plant extracts that have been used thousands of years?

You will find the same sort of thing happening in other less advanced societies. It's a question of making use of available resources.


The Europeans definitely developed a large chunk of science. The colder the place, more stuff came out of it. It is called necessity is the mother of invention....if you do not need it, why bother.

Are you saying the East did not need medicine . Was there no cancer or any of the other diseases which plague mankind. The necessity driving medicine has nothing to do with temperature; it's something called disease.


And that was a mistake in the later version of the Eastern Philosophy including in the China where a certain king ignored a blue water navy, because he was happy with his concubines. Otherwise today, you would be speaking Chinese.

That is simply another conjecture. I cannot see how speaking Chinese would have prevented us from developing science. The Chinese speak Chinese and look at them now.


The Eastern Philosophy got corrupted since about 800 BC. When people are happy and prosperous, the idiots rise to the top and mess up the society - which is happening now to USA. Just wait 30 years when USA will no longer be sustainable. It is definitely not the fault of the core American way of life. But the same type of people that you will blame, you will find them in the Eastern Hemisphere too.

If it got corrupted so long ago, what point are you making ? That we should turn the clock back ?

I am in complete agreement with your point about consumerism. Some of what I see disgusts me, but I would note care to speculate how things will turn out.



Deep down, people are the same everywhere. It is just that Eastern Philosophy allows to maintain the social dignity for a very long time...that is why, when I started this sub-forum, I told everybody, it is all about "Sanatana Dharma" - The Eternal Way of Life. A life style that can last mankind for eternity.

I agree that people everywhere have the same basic needs but when those are satisfied we look for other things because it is in our nature to do so. I think this is self-evident. India and China have followed in our footsteps for that very reason.

I cannot accept the notion of eternal life because there is not a shred of what I would regard as evidence to support it.

If you can beat that, then that is Sanatana Dharma by any other name..

In case you are getting the wrong message , may I say that I do not despise people of any other race or creed. We are all in some sense the products of our environment . Had I been born in India I would possibly be looking at this from a different angle , or I might be pursuing consunerism as India is today.

 

[Myles]

Myles -

Do you suspect that the "Westerners" who are embracing some "Eastern" teachings and practices, are abandoning reason?

I am interested in hearing your response to the points we discussed concernig suffering, medicine , etc.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

To act sincerely with the insincere is dangerous.
Source: (Taoist)

Thought we might as well go

'back to the things themselves' (ironic nod to LW)

and oddly, and perhaps relevently, the above taoist quote was the first bit of 'Eastern Wisdom' that appeared from my googling.

 

[Myles]

Thought we might as well go

'back to the things themselves' (ironic nod to LW)

and oddly, and perhaps relevently, the above taoist quote was the first bit of 'Eastern Wisdom' that appeared from my googling.

Thank you for that. Can you now explain why it is any wiser than what one instincively knows ? Do you think we need to be told, or is it in the presentation that the attraction lies ?

Can you now supply another piece of advice to show how one recognizes insicerity ? Preferably something which I do not already know.

Are you aware that there are similar books in the West offering advice on how to live ?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Over the years I have seen many books devoted to what is loosely regarded as the Wisdom of the East. I have read a few books on the subject without finding anything I would regard as wise that cannot be found in the Western Intellectual Tradition.

Am I missing something ?

It would appear so, however it is difficult to be sure until you define 'wisdom' as you see it, the wisdom you found within eastern cultures, and how they are found with western intellectual tradition.

Jan