BornOfZapatasGuns
Registered Member
ok, IMO, money is not necessary for society nor has it ever been necessary but I do believe that unless the whole world is willing to end a society built on money it would be very hard to implement.
Do we need money?
- Thread starter Jez
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Riomacleod
Registered Senior Member
How do you come to this opinion?
BornOfZapatasGuns
Registered Member
Money is a tool only needed for wants and society should be built only on needs. You cannot have equality in a society based on wants. Necessities should be free to all people.
Because no country has all the raw materials needed, they have to buy them from other countries which needs money.
Because no country has all the raw materials needed, they have to buy them from other countries which needs money.
Riomacleod
Registered Senior Member
We only have 3 basic needs.
Food, Water, and Shelter.
Nearly every country has the raw materials available to fill those needs. The places where that isn't the case probably shouldn't have people living on it.
Why do we have to have equality in a society? Shouldn't the more talented or more skilled get more than the less skilled? Should doctors, janitors, waiters and scientists all get the same comforts? Why be a doctor? Why innovate if there's no reward for it?
Beyond that, please suggest one country or soceity that didn't use money. Even communist utopias had money... in theory.
Food, Water, and Shelter.
Nearly every country has the raw materials available to fill those needs. The places where that isn't the case probably shouldn't have people living on it.
Why do we have to have equality in a society? Shouldn't the more talented or more skilled get more than the less skilled? Should doctors, janitors, waiters and scientists all get the same comforts? Why be a doctor? Why innovate if there's no reward for it?
Beyond that, please suggest one country or soceity that didn't use money. Even communist utopias had money... in theory.
BornOfZapatasGuns
Registered Member
Nearly, being the key word. Many countries are
Yes they are the 3 basic needs for survival but when you come down to health care etc, this is something that is not available in many countries.
There's hasn't been any country that has worked without money. Most communist theories were based more on single countries than the whole world and this is why they needed currency. Trotsky was maybe one of the only communist theorists who based his theories on a world wide basis and the only one who could have created a society without money.
Yes they are the 3 basic needs for survival but when you come down to health care etc, this is something that is not available in many countries.
There's hasn't been any country that has worked without money. Most communist theories were based more on single countries than the whole world and this is why they needed currency. Trotsky was maybe one of the only communist theorists who based his theories on a world wide basis and the only one who could have created a society without money.
Money is a manifestation of the hard work that people do. ie if you work for 10 hours at $5 and hour, you get $50. Your hard work is worth $50!
Money isn't evil, its good. It makes lazy people work, it gives rise to cometition, and the endless prusuit of perfection.
So do we need money? Need it no, if you mean only surviving, food, water, clothing. However if we only have food and water what makes us different form other animals?
Communism failed not because of money, but because it was based on the idea that man is naturaly good, until he learns to be evil. That isn't true because even a lion tries to make itself look better than another lion, no matter if it means killing it.
Money isn't evil, its good. It makes lazy people work, it gives rise to cometition, and the endless prusuit of perfection.
So do we need money? Need it no, if you mean only surviving, food, water, clothing. However if we only have food and water what makes us different form other animals?
Communism failed not because of money, but because it was based on the idea that man is naturaly good, until he learns to be evil. That isn't true because even a lion tries to make itself look better than another lion, no matter if it means killing it.
Venomous Prodigy
Registered Member
Im glad that I found this thread because I have recently been pondering this question deeply. What ive come to is that money (currency) and an economy had become necessary for civilization to attain a sense of order among its citizens. Our current government systems and technology level has made us dependant on an economy in my opinion. Money is not the root of all evil since their has been conflict for many other reasons which include religious belief systems and personal transgressions between two people or groups of people.
This question in all honesty is larger than what many of you think because money and economy is intimatly linked with all aspects of a future or modern society including everything from energy, to government, to means of production. It is a philosophical and deep question that can be easily answered once you look at how currency has been used in our history and how we could eliminate the problems that come with currency and money.
I probably didnt help much but im just trying to give you the basis of what ive discovered in my own reseach into this question.
This question in all honesty is larger than what many of you think because money and economy is intimatly linked with all aspects of a future or modern society including everything from energy, to government, to means of production. It is a philosophical and deep question that can be easily answered once you look at how currency has been used in our history and how we could eliminate the problems that come with currency and money.
I probably didnt help much but im just trying to give you the basis of what ive discovered in my own reseach into this question.
In low-scarcity America, money is needed to put food on the table, but that can be done with time to spare. Some people use their leftover time to give freely to society. For example, open source software. They gain nothing from it except whuffie.
In a post scarcity society, money could be completely replaced by whuffie. It's still a currency, but not a material one.
In a post scarcity society, money could be completely replaced by whuffie. It's still a currency, but not a material one.
Even in a post-scarcity economy there will still be a demand for services. If tomorrow someone invented magic nanomachines that manufacture anything from piles of raw elements in seconds, you would still need to pay people to teach you Spanish, or perform your heart operation, or whatever. Presumably the service industry would still operate under normal “supply and demand” economics. If there aren't many people who are qualified to perform heart surgery and lots of people who need it, you can expect the heart surgeons to demand some form of compensation for their valuable time.
The only way there could be a society without money would be if this society had an infinite amount of everything that can be produced instantly by anyone for absolutely no cost and in no time. Just getting rid of scarcity is not enough because people might want one product faster for instance and thus would have to pay by some means for this extra want. In this society, basically every person is a god and thus needs nor wants anything, so there can be nothing that one person could ever want of another. As long as man is not a magical god with infinite power, man will need money.
**and a question to banshee though i think he/she left...
so basically you wish to subject yourself to slavery, working for nothing? There is a reason the slaves revolted--being a slave blows. I don't care how altruistic and high and mighty you think you are you would not willingly make yourself a slave. If you would though, please come to my house I could use a slave to do all my work and I wouldn't even feel guilty because I would know you wanted to do it.
**and a question to banshee though i think he/she left...
so basically you wish to subject yourself to slavery, working for nothing? There is a reason the slaves revolted--being a slave blows. I don't care how altruistic and high and mighty you think you are you would not willingly make yourself a slave. If you would though, please come to my house I could use a slave to do all my work and I wouldn't even feel guilty because I would know you wanted to do it.
it takes 20,000 litres of water to produce one kilo of beef
on average day an adult spends 77 minutes eating
male monkeys go bald the same way men do
a lobsters kidneys are in their forehead and its teeth are in their stomach
elephants and short tailed shrews get only two hours sleep aday
a pelican breathes through its mouth it has no nostrils
all this was found out with money if we dont have money we dont have knowledge
on average day an adult spends 77 minutes eating
male monkeys go bald the same way men do
a lobsters kidneys are in their forehead and its teeth are in their stomach
elephants and short tailed shrews get only two hours sleep aday
a pelican breathes through its mouth it has no nostrils
all this was found out with money if we dont have money we dont have knowledge
spider silk matrial is stronger than steel on a wieght basis
to get this informatin to precise detail through labs without anything thats worth value then man or smart women would not bothr to do it
so the money thing is to give people value
learning the value of money is important therwise you can give up a very expensive or worthy lets say cow or rare pot or sumthing thats of value without value or knowing the value how would you kow what its worth
to get this informatin to precise detail through labs without anything thats worth value then man or smart women would not bothr to do it
so the money thing is to give people value
learning the value of money is important therwise you can give up a very expensive or worthy lets say cow or rare pot or sumthing thats of value without value or knowing the value how would you kow what its worth
people can be of value too they may not be rich but the value they are worth is the future
say jesus for instance do you think people back then if they knew his value now would they have done what they did to him knowing he has stigmata and churches that bend at the knees with billions of people saying his name
well people can of value without money the money is to do with other payments
it is an attraction of that little metal thing in your hands that is like a key to others how they percieve the future
money makes them lower people think they can have a future and they want money all the time
but the reality is you dont need money to be in the furure you have to be of sum importance and jesus is one man that showed us this way to be true
your faith in sumthing you believe in can make and let you live side by side with this metal thing in your hand
say jesus for instance do you think people back then if they knew his value now would they have done what they did to him knowing he has stigmata and churches that bend at the knees with billions of people saying his name
well people can of value without money the money is to do with other payments
it is an attraction of that little metal thing in your hands that is like a key to others how they percieve the future
money makes them lower people think they can have a future and they want money all the time
but the reality is you dont need money to be in the furure you have to be of sum importance and jesus is one man that showed us this way to be true
your faith in sumthing you believe in can make and let you live side by side with this metal thing in your hand
Star Trek has done that the same way they travel faster than light: IT'S FICTION!!!. But if you watch Voyager, a situation where they are stuck on the ship for years on end, they trade things like replicator credits and time on the holodeck. So, even on Star Trek, they end up using money.
The only way for a human society to not use money is either a very small, probably low tech group united by family ties or perhaps a strong ideology (small communes have survived for a few years, but rarely more than one generation since the younger members aren't true believers); or an authoritatian system (such as the military or a fascist state) where you are simply issued what you need and expected to work or be shot.
Even within a family unit, notice how much more enthusiastic kids are to do a job when they're getting paid. Human nature requires that the reward be commensurate with the effort. Otherwise, we all become a bunch of slackers.
PS How'd the school project come out? You've had 5 years to finish it, so......
Even ST was pretty inconsistent about the whole "no money" thing. They sometimes say that they don't use money, but there are loads and loads of scenes from the show in which people haggle over the price of things.
I don't think you could run a modern society without money. Even if everyone really is selfless and willing to work for free due to societal pressure/pride/whatever, you need some unit to act as a measure of value.
I've been working on this for a few years. The first 2 points are right. But people must also not want too much stuff. It all has to do with culture. A culture that is modest in spending will produce people who don't need much more then their basic needs to be fulfilled. It's quite a task. We live in an extremely consumerist world. Changing our focus from consumerism to some other form of philosohy that fulfills us can be quite challenging.