Do homeopathic remedies contain measurable quantities of the "medicine"?

[billvon]

I really dislike these elitist blanket prejudicial statements. Native tribes have used natural remedies for thousands of years.

Of course. For example, one such remedy was white willow bark; it worked wonders to reduce pain and inflammation. This is because it contains salicin. When ingested this converts to salicylic acid. This may sound familiar to you since it's the active ingredient in aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid.)

It worked because it contained an active ingredient in sufficient quantities to have a therapeutic benefit. Reduce the amount of salicin and the benefit is diminished and eventually disappears. This is basically the opposite philosophy that homeopathy takes.

Some medicine men have an equivalent knowledge of natural medicines than any modern doctor.

Absolutely. And those natural medicines work because they have substances that, at sufficient concentrations, have a therapeutic effect. Again, the opposite of the homeopath's approach.

Let's not forget that vaccination against viruses is a homeopathic remedy.

Nope. The homeopathic version of a vaccine would remove all the active ingredients of that vaccine, and then inject you with the water that once contained them. The water, according to homeopaths, then contains the "memory" of the vaccine.

Are we just dismissing that some 70 % of all medicine is based on natural resources.

Yep. And more importantly, significant quantities of those natural resources.

Of course we can test homeopathic remedies if we wanted to. It is what we do with all artificial drugs and remedies. Are you declaring that there are potential medicinal molecules we cannot test? Really?

We can (and should) test any such potential remedy.

If you had been following the above conversation, you would have realized that it is primarily an argument between two groups - one group (myself included) demanding valid and accurate test results before any new treatment is approved, and the other (Kumar) protesting that you can't test homeopathic drugs, because they are not amenable to such testing. Kumar himself claimed that "double blind studies in science are not valid to study homeopathic remedies."

He has claimed that the patient's feelings and beliefs are critical to having homeopathic remedies work, which means they act the same way that placebos act. It is the belief of the patient rather than the effectiveness of the remedy that is important.

 

[billvon]

Well, strictly speaking they're as valid as a placebo, which is shown to have some efficacy.

Fair enough. I should have said that they are no better than placebos when it comes to treating disease.

 

[Sarkus]

I really dislike these elitist blanket prejudicial statements.

I have a feeling that you aren't quite up to speed with what a homeopathic remedy actually is??

Native tribes have used natural remedies for thousands of years. Some medicine men have an equivalent knowledge of natural medicines than any modern doctor.

Natural medicines does not make something homeopathic.

Let's not forget that vaccination against viruses is a homeopathic remedy.

No, it's not. First, there is actual active ingredient (and I'm not talking about a live virus) within the vaccine, else it would not (per science, as least) work any better than a placebo. I.e. they're not just injecting people with water or saline. Second, if you're referring to the homeopathic principle of similia similibus curentur, then bear in mind that only live-attenuated vaccines use the live virus, and even then in a much weakened state that will not cause illness. This is not the same as giving someone a small dose of the actual illness-causing-strength virus.
But again, this in itself is not homeopathy, as homepathic remedies use "homeopathic dilutions" (a 1% solution being 1C, a 1% solution of a 1% solution being 2C, etc) where anything over 12C (a fairly impotent homeopathic remedy) means you're pretty unlikely to receive any active molecule at all in the actual remedy.

Are we just dismissing that some 70 % of all medicine is based on natural resources.

No. We're simply not confusing "natural" with "homeopathic".

Of course we can test homeopathic remedies if we wanted to. It is what we do with all artificial drugs and remedies. Are you declaring that there are potential medicinal molecules we cannot test? Really?

Methinks you have missed the point of his post: KUMAR5 is the one saying that they can't be tested scientifically, and Origin is being sarcastic in saying "sure, because it works by magic!"

Write4U, maybe you want to tell us whether you think homeopathic remedies work, and why/why not?

 

[Write4U]

Nope. The homeopathic version of a vaccine would remove all the active ingredients of that vaccine, and then inject you with the water that once contained them. The water, according to homeopaths, then contains the "memory" of the vaccine.

There is nothing in the term homeopathy that suggest only the "fake" remedies are named homeopathic..

I know this is the common interpretation of homeopathic remedies and is based on:

• “Law of minimum dose”—the notion that the lower the dose of the medication, the greater its effectiveness. Many homeopathic products are so diluted that no molecules of the original substance remain.

But consider that homeostasis by the brain controls homeopathy in the body.

And the dictionaries do show a more comprehensive definition. The intent is to condition the body's immune system against specific infections.

Please do not misunderstand, I do not deny that there are literally "shitty" potions claiming magical results. Of course, Snake-oil salesmen have been around for ages.

But objectively speaking:

Homeopathy, also known as homeopathic medicine, is a medical system that was developed in Germany more than 200 years ago. It's based on two unconventional theories:

• “Like cures like”—the notion that a disease can be cured by a substance that produces similar symptoms in healthy people.

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/homeopathy#

And that sounds like vaccination to induce the body to manufacture anti-bodies to me. How about pro-biotics (acidophilus bacillus bulgaricus), which actually induce increased biotic activity?

This is the new area of study in bacterial communication "quorum sensing".

And consider that even with bogus homeostatic products, no one is ever gonna die from overdosing....

If we consider that "quorum sensing" in bacteria relies on sufficient numbers of "autoinducers", the "dilution" of autoinducers might prevent the onset of virulence.

I know this is kind of reverse logic, but this is all new stuff and if I understand Bonnie Bassler, if we can prevent bacteria from reaching sufficient density we can prevent virulence. i.e. we need to learn the speak "bacterial" to be able to confuse their chemical messaging.

 

[Write4U]

No. We're simply not confusing "natural" with "homeopathic".

Homeopathy does not use "natural" substances?

What Is Homeopathy?

Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process.

In principle this is not quackery. The body can cure itself (natural and acquired immunity). It is the practice of creating bogus pills and potions, i.e. snake-oil remedies by con-men like Trump.

 

[Write4U]

First, there is actual active ingredient (and I'm not talking about a live virus) within the vaccine, else it would not (per science, as least) work any better than a placebo.

I disagree, even if we inject live viruses they have altered spikes that prevent them from "quorum sensing".

Bacterial virulence and possibly even viral virulence are controlled by sufficient number of emitted auto inducers. In "diluted states" the pathogens remain inactive. Thus it is not so much as the body acquiring immune response, but the pathogen remaining impotent.

 

[billvon]

I know this is the common interpretation of homeopathic remedies and is based on:

• “Law of minimum dose”—the notion that the lower the dose of the medication, the greater its effectiveness. Many homeopathic products are so diluted that no molecules of the original substance remain.

Correct. Thus they contain no relevant amount of the drug. They are indistinguishable from an inert material (i.e. a placebo.)

But consider that homeostasis by the brain controls homeopathy in the body.

Wait a minute. Did you just conflate homeostasis to homeopathy because they have the same first five letters? Will we next hear how homeoplasia only happens with homeopathy? And that you have to be a homeowner to understand homeopathy?

• “Like cures like”—the notion that a disease can be cured by a substance that produces similar symptoms in healthy people.

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/homeopathy#

And that sounds like vaccination to me.

In the same way that homeostasis sounds like homeopathy to you?

Because things sound like other things does not actually make them similar.

Consider that even with bogus homeostatic products, no one is ever gonna die from overdosing.....

Now THAT I agree with! Since there are no active ingredients there's no risk of getting too much of them.

True story - Billy Joel's daughter Alexa Ray tried to overdose on homeopathic sleeping pills. She was taken to the hospital, where doctors took one look at her and sent her off for a psych consult.

In that way homeopathic remedies have one excellent redeeming quality - they will not kill you no matter how much you take of them. Thus, for someone at risk for suicide, they are an excellent option.

 

[Write4U]

Wait a minute. Did you just conflate homeostasis to homeopathy because they have the same first five letters? Will we next hear how homeoplasia only happens with homeopathy? And that you have to be a homeowner to understand homeopathy?

No I won't wait for that nonsense at all. Take the sentence in its entirety, please.

 

[billvon]

No I won't wait for that nonsense at all. Take the sentence in its entirety, please.

OK then. Your statement "homeostasis by the brain controls homeopathy in the body" is nonsense. The two are completely unrelated and have nothing to do with each other. Homeostasis is the process by which the body maintains temperatures/gradients/concentrations etc so as to maintain an equilibrium that supports the various biochemical processes needed for life. Homeopathy is a belief that water that has been "touched" by a substance retains some character of the substance, even though none of it remains.

 

[Write4U]

In the same way that homeostasis sounds like homeopathy to you?

Would you deny that in principle homeopathy is designed to maintain homeostasis in humans?

 

[exchemist]

There is nothing in the term homeopathy that suggest only the "fake" remedies are named homeopathic..

I know this is the common interpretation of homeopathic remedies and is based on:

• “Law of minimum dose”—the notion that the lower the dose of the medication, the greater its effectiveness. Many homeopathic products are so diluted that no molecules of the original substance remain.

But consider that homeostasis by the brain controls homeopathy in the body.

And the dictionaries do show a more comprehensive definition. The intent is to condition the body's immune system against specific infections.

Please do not misunderstand, I do not deny that there are literally "shitty" potions claiming magical results. Of course, Snake-oil salesmen have been around for ages.

But objectively speaking:

• “Like cures like”—the notion that a disease can be cured by a substance that produces similar symptoms in healthy people.

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/homeopathy#

And that sounds like vaccination to induce the body to manufacture anti-bodies to me. How about pro-biotics (acidophilus bacillus bulgaricus), which actually induce increased biotic activity?

This is the new area of study in bacterial communication "quorum sensing".

And consider that even with bogus homeostatic products, no one is ever gonna die from overdosing....

If we consider that "quorum sensing" in bacteria relies on sufficient numbers of "autoinducers", the "dilution" of autoinducers might prevent the onset of virulence.

I know this is kind of reverse logic, but this is all new stuff and if I understand Bonnie Bassler, if we can prevent bacteria from reaching sufficient density we can prevent virulence. i.e. we need to learn the speak "bacterial" to be able to confuse their chemical messaging.

BINGO!

It's been a while, but we have once again QUORUM SENSING.

Where is Dave's wheel of bullshit?

 

[exchemist]

Would you deny that in principle homeopathy is designed to maintain homeostasis in humans?

Yes.

 

[Write4U]

OK then. Your statement "homeostasis by the brain controls homeopathy in the body" is nonsense. The two are completely unrelated and have nothing to do with each other. Homeostasis is the process by which the body maintains temperatures/gradients/concentrations etc so as to maintain an equilibrium that supports the various biochemical processes needed for life. Homeopathy is a belief that water that has been "touched" by a substance retains some character of the substance, even though none of it remains.

That is your limited interpretation as practiced by quacks and snake-oil salesmen.

Here is a more sober assessment.

What Is Homeopathy?

Don’t use homeopathic medicine for life-threatening illnesses, like asthma, cancer, and heart disease, or in emergencies. You should also avoid using it in place of vaccines. Some homeopathic products called “nosodes” are marketed as an alternative for vaccines, but there’s no research to prove they’re effective.

SUGGESTED
Does It Work?

Research is mixed. Some studies show that homeopathic remedies are helpful, while others don’t. Critics chalk up the benefits to the placebo effect. That’s when symptoms improve because you believe the treatment is working -- not because it really is. This can trigger the brain to release chemicals that briefly relieve the pain or other symptoms.

IOW, trigger a homeostatic response!

Doctors are divided because some of the theories behind homeopathy don’t line up with the principles of chemistry and physics. Scientists argue that a medicine with no active ingredient shouldn’t have an effect on the body.

What Are the Risks?

The FDA oversees homeopathic remedies. But it doesn’t check to see if they’re safe or effective. In general, most are so watered down that they don’t cause any side effects. But there are exceptions. Homoeopathic medicines can contain a large amount of an active ingredient, like a heavy metal, that can be dangerous.

https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-homeopathy

 

[Write4U]

t's been a while, but we have once again QUORUM SENSING.

And you call yourself a chemist? When was the last time you read a book on modern bio-chemistry?

What do you know about quorum sensing?

Let me just hint about the state of science on the subject.

Quorum sensing

Description

In biology, quorum sensing or quorum signalling is the ability to detect and respond to cell population density by gene regulation. As one example, QS enables bacteria to restrict the expression of specific genes to the high cell densities at which the resulting phenotypes will be most beneficial. Wikipedia

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said: ↑
Would you deny that in principle homeopathy is designed to maintain homeostasis in humans?

Yes.

Oh. What then, pray tell is it designed to do. What is the 'purpose" of "homeopathic medicine"

Once again;

What exactly is homeopathic medicine?

Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process. It was developed in the late 1700s in Germany. 22 Mar 2021

https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-homeopathy

Should I believe the official medical interpretation or your colloquial interpretation?

 

[KUMAR5]

You can't test homeopathic remedies because they require magic to work and science science has yet to accurately test magic

I meant homeopathic remedies can not be studied by routinely practiced studies in science. One tablespoon of sugar dissolved in plain water can easily be tested for sweatness in that with 100% accurecy whereas also no sugar dissolved in it(say placebo group) also with 100% accurecy. But if just 1-2 grains are dissolved in that, accurecy may even be nil or just 5-10%. Obiously science will declare it at placeno due to nil or low outcome. But in fact dugar/sweatness is there in that water. Slowly slowly on continuous exposure you can make it more sensible to propke towards it than you can get improved outcome. It can also hapoen that one tablespoon group are testedhigher post orsndal blood gulucose level wheress 1-2 grain group bit lower PP BG level due to somewhat homeopathic effect(also scientific). Hence this can sugfest that regular s scientific studies are not valid for higher dikutions. Some oractical basis is need to be considered to study these in actual. Otherwise show me any REALLY VALID scientific study to justify non effectiveness of homeopathic remedies.

 

[billvon]

Would you deny that in principle homeopathy is designed to maintain homeostasis in humans?

Yes.

Research is mixed. Some studies show that homeopathic remedies are helpful, while others don’t. Critics chalk up the benefits to the placebo effect. That’s when symptoms improve because you believe the treatment is working -- not because it really is.

Exactly! That's what we have been saying for the past seven pages. It is a placebo - a substance with no therapeutic value that works simply because the recipient believes it will. It is a well known effect. You could get exactly the same results with distilled water.

 

[billvon]

Otherwise show me any REALLY VALID scientific study to justify non effectiveness of homeopathic remedies.

Sure. Here's a well controlled study of homeopathic treatment for warts.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle/189547

Conclusion: "There was no significant difference in efficacy between pure placebo and the homeopathic remedy in the context of this study."

 

[Sarkus]

Homeopathy does not use "natural" substances?

My cooking uses "natural" substances, that doesn't make it homeopathic. So please stop your fallacious thinking.

What Is Homeopathy?

Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process.

In principle this is not quackery. The body can cure itself (natural and acquired immunity). It is the practice of creating bogus pills and potions, i.e. snake-oil remedies by con-men like Trump.

If you take a single element of homeopathy as the definition, it is no wonder you reach the conclusions you do.
Homeopathy is NOT the notion that the body can cure itself - otherwise there would be no need for any remedy whatsoever, and psychotherapy would be all it entails.
Homeopathy is the principle, as mentioned already, of "like cures like", or similia similibus curentur.
To quote wiki (admittedly not exactly a science journal, but a good starting point): "All relevant scientific knowledge about physics, chemistry, biochemistry and biology[6][7][8][9][10][11] gained since at least the mid-19th century[12] contradicts homeopathy." with relevant references to be found here.
Further, homeopathy, as opposed to merely "natural remedies", is the notion that the more dilute a remedy is of active ingredient, the more potent it is. I.e. the fewer molecules of active ingredient to be found in the remedy, the more effective it is. Mathematically, a 12C solution is like there being a pinch of salt in both the North and South Atlantic Oceans, for example. And many remedies are 30C or above, with even the founder of homeopathy advocating for 30C or higher.

So yes, in principle homeopathy is quackery. It is not psychotherapy where the body can heal itself. It is not the prescribing merely of "natural remedies", nor of remedies aimed at assisting the body in fighting off the ailment. It is 2 notions: "like cures like", and the more dilute the remedy the more potent it is. Neither are supported by science. Period.

Noone is disputing the efficacy of natural remedies (heck, Aspirin was the result of investigation into natural remedies!)
Noone is disputing the ability of remedies to aid the body in helping it fight off ailments.

Science, however, disputes the notion of "like cures like" that forms the foundation of homeopathy, and science disputes the notion that the more dilute a substance - to the point of there being the equivalent of one molecule per physical universe - the more potent it is, the other foundation.
Now, either you can argue against those, if you think you have a case, or you can continue your irrelevant ramblings. Up to you, I guess.

 

[Sarkus]

That is your limited interpretation as practiced by quacks and snake-oil salesmen.

By all homeopathic practitioners.

Here is a more sober assessment.
What Is Homeopathy?

Don’t use homeopathic medicine for life-threatening illnesses, like asthma, cancer, and heart disease, or in emergencies. You should also avoid using it in place of vaccines. Some homeopathic products called “nosodes” are marketed as an alternative for vaccines, but there’s no research to prove they’re effective.

That is a rather telling statement, don't you think? First, it doesn't describe anything about what homeopathy is, but rather that it shouldn't be used for life-threatening illnesses... one might even think that's because even the homeopathic "doctors" realise that they're selling just the placebo effect, and that actual medicine, actual scientifically tested and validated medicine, works better than water.
It's a statement that says they have no confidence in it... other than for ailments where it doesn't actually matter if it doesn't work. And if enough people try their remedies, the success from the placebo effect alone should guarantee sufficient repeat business, right?

SUGGESTED
Does It Work?
IOW, trigger a homeostatic response!

Well done, you just provided argument that the actual remedies are no more effective than a placebo. Not surprising given that both the remedy and the placebo are likely just water.

What Are the Risks?

https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-homeopathy

While there is a risk of drinking too much water, especially too much pure water (as it dilutes the essential salts in the body), you'd have to drink quite a bit.
As exampled previously, for a 15C solution of a remedy - quite a weak one by homeopathic standards, when Oscillococcinum (a "common" treatment for flu symptoms) is 200C - one would have to drink 1% of the contents of an olympic swimming pool to be reasonably sure of ingesting at least 1 molecule of the active ingredient.

Please, Write4U, you're not really stupid enough to believe in this scam, are you?
Bear in mind that the underlying premise you think exists in homeopathy of the homeostasis effect, of the body being able to heal itself, is not itself homeopathy.