Discussion: Is pedophilia pseudoscience?

Status
Not open for further replies.
James has chose not to argue. This is why I shortened my response in the debate. When a person chooses to avoid the main point of your argument, they have chosen not to argue.

His technique is quite simple: It's called the Strawman. [1] Distort what I said, then knock it down. My main argument is misunderstood by him or he has no idea how to defeat it, so he stoops to Strawmaning it through the debate.

Another technique he has used is the Can of Worms technique. [2] Instead of directly responding to my argument, he opens up a can of arguments that are relevant to the issue, but irrelevant to the main point being argued. The irrational expectation is that I must address all of these side points that are not relevant to the main point or I loose the argument. He may convince those with a short attention span, but not those of a distinguished and articulate intellect who will not become confused as to what the main point is.

One of his most common falsifications of my position is his continual false assertion (he is not quoting me, he is making this up, it's the first step of Strawman Argument creation, falsify the opponents position). He falsely claims I stated this nonsense:

James R. said:
Once again, this merely repeats ancientregime's assertion that no harm can possibly result from sexual abuse of children.

I never said this. I said the opposite. I've continually said that harm can occur while sex occurs. I do not contend that sex causes harm, just as well as drinking Coke doesn't cause harm, but harm can occur while drinking a Coke if the Coke goes down the wrong pipe. This doesn't mean Coca~Cola causes harm. Choking does harm, because it is not necessary for Coke to be present for choking to harm, it could be a bottle of Jones Blue Bubble Gum soda. I pointed this principle out several times in his argument that fails to separate the fact that sex doesn't cause harm and but the actions of rape do.

His continual distortions provides strong evidence he can't take my argument head on. Strawman is an act of desperation. I suggest everyone read what a Strawman argument is, read my argument, then watch how James several times distorts my claims, instead of quoting me. You will find Strawman throughout all of his argument. You will find not one occurrence of Strawman in my argumentation. I have not a need for it.

James thinks winning the argument consists on focusing on cases where abuse does occur, but ignores my agreement that abuse does occur. He doesn't want you to focus on the fact I agree with that. He wants you to ignore that the onus is on him to show abuse occurs in all cases. In order for him to have won the debate, he would need to empirically prove harm occurs in all cases.

In order for him to prove this, he would have needed to show physiological, emotional, and psychological states occurring during the act of sex dynamically form what is called mental illness when when no manipulation, threat, violence, iatrogenic harm is present.

He needed to start from the physiological and emotional level. He needed to show us what the physical body was doing and the chemicals that were occurring (I provided this). He needed to show how the empirical states of emotion produced from sex then go onto create a mental illness. He did not provide this process and neither has the studies he has cited, which makes his argument only subjective. It fails to meet the empirical criteria for science. He has not won the debate on scientific grounds.

In summary his argument is not really an argument:
- He Strawmanned himself through the debate.
- He chose not to argue my actual content, only his Strawman distortions.
- Most of all, he failed to provide the process that proves abuse occurs in all cases.

I on the other hand have based all of my argument on empirical grounds. Surely, with more time, I could expand the number of citations that form this empirical basis. I have shown how emotions can be empirically planted. I have distinguished sexual activity and from harmful activity with empirical evidence at the fundamental physiological, emotional, and psychological level. There is no reason to believe any kind of sex in an of itself causes harm based upon this evidence.

James has not proven sex can cause harm. James instead adds abuse along with sex, then claims sex causes harm. Two different birds altogether.
 
Religion is a falsehood, always has been, always will be. Anyone trying to hide beneath it's skirt for protection just proves how false they are.

The Big Brother thought control apparatus you suggest to use for your moral agenda is tantamount to religious control. In order for something such as this to be used effectively, you may want to remove your moral agenda and seep yourself in science.
 
This is why the questions about his Religion (which in honesty he's purposely not stated, perhaps fearing that he would easily be rideculed.) Believe me, J.E. knows full well this because I've been quite forthcoming with my queries, I'm just wondering how much of a vandal he is.

I already answered you religious questions. I'm athiest. I'm scientist. I let nature qualify my senses by observation, not religious or cultural tampering.

Bring on any argument relevant to this subject matter. I do not fear looking at it accurately.
 
Last edited:
In AncientRegime's case he's been very prudent to make sure that he doesn't admit anything from his perspective, generating argument should anyone state that suggests that "he" saw or did anything in examples.

If the argument becomes too personally attached to him he stalls, until the person trying to point out says something that he can use as ammo. I can understand the debate technique, however I can also understand it being predatorial, where they try to stay just outside of reach.

Does Stryder think that making the debate personal contributes to the argument?

If he does, it is not science, because science is not based upon consensus. Instead it is based upon empirically grounded argumentation.

I point this out because he is distracting from the subject matter and trying to turn this into a psychological examination of me. This is a debate, not a shrink session Stryder. Your contributions will have value when you can stay focused on the subject matter of the thread topic. Perhaps you should start a threat on acientregimes psychological make up. I welcome this. These sort of comments would be fine there. Go for it, have a heyday. But, please quit trolling with irrelevant subject matter.
 
Sorry, AR, objection noted, chastisement accepted. Please allow me to rephrase...

Thank you for showing some pride in reason. Idiots will think you are kissing ass, but it's clearly not the case, unless of course you are lying. I'll assume you are being reasonable and I will qualify your action for what it is and leaving intention where is belongs, nowhere here.

Exactly what picture do you conjure up of "sex" with a newborn? Someone licking her clitoris (or his penis), or perhaps penetration? You tell me?

Now, without implying any offense to you personally, could you please, pretty please, answer the following question?

Is there any child too young to have sex with a "thirty something" adult?

The one of the most significant points of contention of the thread debate is whether or not harm is caused in all cases. You have brought up erotic vaginal kissing. This is a specific example to test.

Vaginal licking, sucking, kissing, etc, would seem to cause no harm physically. Basis: it's does not create tissue damage.

Vaginal licking, sucking, kissing, etc, would seem to cause no harm emotionally. Basis: the emotions produced from it in the child would be neutral or positive in nature.

Vaginal licking, sucking, kissing, etc, would seem to cause no harm psychologically. Basis: The psychology represent the physical and emotional states. There is no reason to believe that a neutral or pleasurable memory would induce mental illness.

I am open to hear how such a psychological dynamic of mental illness can occur, because scientific minds are open minds. For example, describe from the empirical level to the psychological level how mental illness would manifest from this erotic kissing. I'm not interested in hearing someone just say it's abuse. I want a clean cut empirical to psychological process described.

I've showed the fundamental psychological states that would be received from this physical and emotional activity. Now clearly show the process in which they become mangled into mental illness.

Scientist taps fingers.
 
Laws are not solely grounded in science, but ethics, morality, and cultural standards.

Not all of them. The trend is away from morality and to science. Morality is subjective reasoning. Science is empirical reasoning.


Seems AR just doesn't have faith in the judicial system to vindicate his actions.

I'm not interested in faith, you are right. Faith based reasoning and empirical based reasoning are different. Once you come to know the difference, the amazement of astonishment of the magic ceases. It's almost depressing, but the knowledge is so satisfactory, a person who attains this level wouldn't have it any other way.
 
Thank you for showing some pride in reason. Idiots will think you are kissing ass, but it's clearly not the case, unless of course you are lying. I'll assume you are being reasonable and I will qualify your action for what it is and leaving intention where is belongs, nowhere here.

Just to be fair, the intent was actually sarcasm directed at your ruffled feathers...



The one of the most significant points of contention of the thread debate is whether or not harm is caused in all cases. You have brought up erotic vaginal kissing. This is a specific example to test.

Vaginal licking, sucking, kissing, etc, would seem to cause no harm physically. Basis: it's does not create tissue damage.

Vaginal licking, sucking, kissing, etc, would seem to cause no harm emotionally. Basis: the emotions produced from it in the child would be neutral or positive in nature.

Vaginal licking, sucking, kissing, etc, would seem to cause no harm psychologically. Basis: The psychology represent the physical and emotional states. There is no reason to believe that a neutral or pleasurable memory would induce mental illness.

I am open to hear how such a psychological dynamic of mental illness can occur, because scientific minds are open minds. For example, describe from the empirical level to the psychological level how mental illness would manifest from this erotic kissing. I'm not interested in hearing someone just say it's abuse. I want a clean cut empirical to psychological process described.

I've showed the fundamental psychological states that would be received from this physical and emotional activity. Now clearly show the process in which they become mangled into mental illness.

Scientist taps fingers.


I'm not quite sure exactly what you would accept as empirical evidence since there appears to be no controlled studies on "vaginal kissing" of infants. Pro or con... (Wonder why that is)

However, JamesR certainly cited numerous sources that document damage to prepubescent children involved in sexual acts with adults. Perhaps you missed those?


Here's one more, not that you are likely to comprehend it:

http://www.womens-wellbeing-and-mental-health.com/Sexual-Abuse.html

Sexual abuse creates a certain syndrome of symptoms: repetition (the compulsion to re-live the trauma), nightmares, dissociation (slipping into trance states when some smell, or sight, or person triggers traumatic memory), and hyper vigilance, a state of anxious awareness maintained to fend off danger, that plagues both sleeping and waking hours, and which makes intimacy with others difficult, if not impossible. Sadly, parents often miss the signs of sexual abuse in their daughters and girls are too ashamed to report it.

For over a decade, now, psychologists and therapists have been concerned about the mood problems, the eating disorders, the loss of self esteem--the disaffection from school, and sport, and other interests that have become pandemic among adolescent females. The rush to uncover, and treat, depression, anorexia and bulimia, self-cutting, suicide attempts and other dramatic symptoms of inner despair, has been everywhere noted. But very rarely have these behaviors been connected with sexual trauma.

...

Now it's recognized that the same kinds of symptoms are found in those who've been raped and sexually assaulted. Such experiences live on forever inside the body and brain unless they are treated with psychotherapy. But trauma symptoms in adolescent girls are still being ascribed to the "normal" tumult of the teenage years. Even when the statistics on the sexual abuse of girls are known, somehow the biological and mental effects of such abuse continues to be denied. Without getting psychological help, girls will not be able to process the assaults they receive--in school stairwells, on the street, in their families. The effects of trauma will color their lives and relationships indefinitely.

http://www.womens-wellbeing-and-mental-health.com/Sexual-Abuse.html

Appeal to authority maybe, but why do the authorities hold this consensus AR? Chance and coincidence? Conspiracy maybe?
 
Not all of them. The trend is away from morality and to science. Morality is subjective reasoning. Science is empirical reasoning.

Like I said, investigating whether your proposed practise causes harm would be unethical. I said laws were based on ethics, morality, and cultural standards. You can argue the 'science' part all you like (not that you actually have any) but it does not detract from the three things that make law, law.


I'm not interested in faith,

Good, because I never mentioned it.
 
Pedophiles should have one of their balls removed , do it again the other ball is removed

Simple arousal in prepubescent children is called a pedophilic interest. Guess you got to mutilate the genitals of 25% of the population [1], since a quarter of them get aroused at the sight of a pre-pubscence child. Some of these men are judges. Some are police officers. Some of them are in your family. Some of them are big bulky tough guys. Some of them are holding guns in our military. Perhaps you have bit off more than you can chew? You are declaring words of war by promoting such draconian and inhuman acts based on moral filth beliefs. It is a war you will not win.
 
Last edited:
However, JamesR certainly cited numerous sources that document damage to prepubescent children involved in sexual acts with adults. Perhaps you missed those?

Here's one more, not that you are likely to comprehend it:

Those studies, nor the ones you cite, satisfy an empirical basis for genital kissing causing mental illness. The onus is for you to show the process from the physiological and emotional to the psychological illness. Your citations, as well as James', though relevant to the subject matter, are irrelevant to this point, because they don't satisfy a description of the process from being erotically kissed to mental illness.

You don't have to have a study on the exact behavior, it is unnecessary. Just describe the process. No one has provided such a process to scrutinize. It's just implied to exist in all the studies. I reminds me of the God issue. I ask a Theist, "Where is this God?" But they can never show me, yet they want me to believe in their conclusion.

Still, tapping fingers.

Outro, for now.
 
Last edited:
Simple arousal in prepubescent children is called a pedophilic interest. Guess you got to mutilate the genitals of 25% of the population [1], since a quarter of them get aroused at the sight of a pre-pubscence child. Some of these men are judges. Some are police officers. Some of them are in your family. Some of them are big bulky tough guys. Some of them are holding guns in our military. Perhaps you have bit off more than you can chew? You are declaring words of war by promoting such draconian and inhuman acts based moral filth beliefs. It is a war you will not win.

They only used slides for the test. If they use real humans walking around a room with a clear vision of movements, i guess it might have been far above 90%. Its mostly in the brain. Once our eyes detect a preferred pattern of movements and facial gestures, it ignites sexual arousal in cases where no physical contact was established. So slides alone cannot reveal the accuracy. Also each male should be subjected to a minimum of 12 different subjects from each age group to get the precise information needed to conclude the study.
 
Those studies, nor the ones you cite, satisfy an empirical basis for genital kissing causing mental illness. The onus is for you to show the process from the physiological and emotional to the psychological illness. Your citations, as well as James', though relevant to the subject matter, are irrelevant to this point, because they don't satisfy a description of the process from being erotically kissed to mental illness.

Perhaps current science can not explain the physiological process per se, but it can certainly identify correlation. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, but it can be a strong indicator. Here are the results of a scientific study directly on topic:


http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol17N1/Childhood.html
Among more than 1,400 adult females, childhood sexual abuse was associated with increased likelihood of drug dependence, alcohol dependence, and psychiatric disorders. The associations are expressed as odds ratios: for example, women who experienced nongenital sexual abuse in childhood were 2.93 times more likely to suffer drug dependence as adults than were women who were not abused.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol17N1/Childhood.html


It seems that you are left with very few options here, AR.

Concede, assert that drug dependence does not qualify as a psychological disorder or dispute the validity of the study. Any other ideas? Remember, due to some unknown mechanism, "women who experienced nongenital sexual abuse in childhood were 2.93 times more likely to suffer drug dependence as adults". What is your take on this?
 
Hmmmm... I keep seeing Ancient Regimes refusing to answer questions that would determine whether he is correct or not. I wonder why...

Let's see. In his own words...

I agree coersion has the potetial for signficant harm.

Despite the poor grammar... this seems fairly straightforward.

If you are not willing, you are coerced.

If you are coerced, it is harmful.


Question...

Can a 1 month old baby consent?

Or would that be coercion?
 
May be you should try asking a 1 month old baby. An adult cannot possibly know the answer to that question because we think like adults.

Actually, since a 1 month old can not answer the question regarding consent I think it is fair to say that they can not consent!

Why am I even addressing this...
 
apparently ancient regime cannot prove that the collective will of the people is in error in regards to AOC.

therefor i submit he stop using the argument it is in error.
 
Perhaps current science can not explain the physiological process per se, but it can certainly identify correlation. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, but it can be a strong indicator. Here are the results of a scientific study directly on topic:


http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol17N1/Childhood.html

http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_Notes/NNVol17N1/Childhood.html


It seems that you are left with very few options here, AR.

Concede, assert that drug dependence does not qualify as a psychological disorder or dispute the validity of the study. Any other ideas? Remember, due to some unknown mechanism, "women who experienced nongenital sexual abuse in childhood were 2.93 times more likely to suffer drug dependence as adults". What is your take on this?

This study does not show the statistic about the parents. Perhaps the parents were chemically dependent which would have a much more logical connect.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps current science can not explain the physiological process per se, but it can certainly identify correlation. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation, but it can be a strong indicator.

Let me give you an example on how to explain in laymen terms how a mental disorder is created in a child and creates problems later on.

Tommy was a orphan. His adoptive parents woke him up evey morning by saying he was a "piece of shit" in a thousand different ways. They not only planted emotions based on "the sight, smell and taste of feces" that were associated with his identity, but everytime he brought up his dream of becoming a musician, they responded with emotional negative comments, stating him being ugly and untalented, and wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. He couldn't even eats beans as an adult, becaue all he could hear was his adoptive parents voices. No one would want to see him play music, they said. Even if they did, he was retarded and wasn't capable of accomplishing anything. They smacked him on the face and belittled him almost everytime he ate at the table, later on in life, he couldn't even eat food without feeling anger, because negative emotoins were planted always with eating time. His adoptive parents were horrible day in and day out through his upbringing. He never graduated high school and left home. Every day he woke up was associated with the feelings of worthlessness and anger planted by his adoptive parents, even though there was nothing to be angry about or feel bad about. He was unable to be around people, because the habit of feeling shitty stayed with him. He wound up homeless because he got fired from every job he'd take on because of his anti-social attitude. He found drugs. It was a godsend. He finally could feel good for once in his life. He pumped the heroin into his viens. Finally, the sun comming up in the morning made him fall in love with life for the first time. When the herion stopped working, he couldn't take life anymore and ended it.

Do you follow the logic of telling someone they are a peice of shit and how that created emotional habits and a self-destructive self-concept? I could take the time and base every statement empirially by citing emotion studies and psycholgoy studies that show every step of progression from the events of childhood to his suicide. But showing the citations are not important at this point.

Now, it' your turn. Provide a logical progression like this one above that shows how (Randwolfs example) erotic kissing of the genetials is a behavior that creates mental illness, like calling someone a pieice of shit on a regular basis. It doesn't have to be a real case study, just demostate in laymen terms how erotic kissing early in life leads to whatevery mental illness you claim it leads to.

If you choose not to show this I will assume that you are taking your own argument seriously, because you can't provide a laymen terms argument showing how a sexual act can cause mental illness.

This is your chance to convince a reasonable open minded person.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top