Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Som people behave beter than others an som people may have a less happy life dew to circumstances beyond ther control... such as the genes they was borned wit an the people who raized 'em when they was young an ther personalities was bein formed.!!!

The issue is... is it fare an just that God condems people for "sinful" thouts even tho they behave properly.!!!

Lori_7 said:
that is no excuse! your genes nor your parents can stop you from changing your mind.
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So genes an enviroment are irrelevent in the outcom of ones life.???

Lori_7 said:
no they're not irrelevant.
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Do you agree that the particular genes an enviroment one has will determine whether they will be mongloid a pedofile or skitsophrenic (for instence).???
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Som people behave beter than others an som people may have a less happy life dew to circumstances beyond ther control... such as the genes they was borned wit an the people who raized 'em when they was young an ther personalities was bein formed.!!!

The issue is... is it fare an just that God condems people for "sinful" thouts even tho they behave properly.!!!

So genes an enviroment are irrelevent in the outcom of ones life.???
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Clearly lori's version of God makes it easy for some people from the starting gate and harder on others for reasons only a mysterious God can see as fair. Sure the kid raped by his father who grows up poor can in, say, a cardboard slum where one pretty much has to fight to stay alive

choose to live non-violently and not repeat certain patterns learned in the family.

I think, on the other hand, it is easier if one has loving and nurturing support and an environment that does not flood one with stress hormones all the time.

This version of God seems to meet out the challenges at random. Some must leap through hoops, perhaps even dying young - and, sadlly, sinful - while their counterpart in a softer environment is still sowing their wild oats and sinning, but later has the time and leisure to repent.

A holy capitalism of sorts.

At least in Eastern traditions there is the explanation of previous lives. So we can perhaps understand why God might, I say might, see it as OK for a soul to incarnate in certain homes.
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Som people behave beter than others an som people may have a less happy life dew to circumstances beyond ther control... such as the genes they was borned wit an the people who raized 'em when they was young an ther personalities was bein formed.!!!

The issue is... is it fare an just that God condems people for "sinful" thouts even tho they behave properly.!!!



So genes an enviroment are irrelevent in the outcom of ones life.???



Do you agree that the particular genes an enviroment one has will determine whether they will be mongloid a pedofile or skitsophrenic (for instence).???
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mongoloid yes, pedophile no, and schizophrenic not sure.
 
Doreen said:
Clearly lori's version of God makes it easy for some people from the starting gate and harder on others for reasons only a mysterious God can see as fair. Sure the kid raped by his father who grows up poor can in, say, a cardboard slum where one pretty much has to fight to stay alive

choose to live non-violently and not repeat certain patterns learned in the family.

I think, on the other hand, it is easier if one has loving and nurturing support and an environment that does not flood one with stress hormones all the time.

This version of God seems to meet out the challenges at random. Some must leap through hoops, perhaps even dying young - and, sadlly, sinful - while their counterpart in a softer environment is still sowing their wild oats and sinning, but later has the time and leisure to repent.

A holy capitalism of sorts.

At least in Eastern traditions there is the explanation of previous lives. So we can perhaps understand why God might, I say might, see it as OK for a soul to incarnate in certain homes.
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i'm sure god has a way of leveling the playing field.
 
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So what do you thank causes a person to be pedophile.???

Lori_7 said:
i don't know, but i've never heard of any genetic linkage. why don't you research it?
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Ive alredy suggested genes an/or enviroment (parents etc.)... if you rule those out what else is ther.... magic/evel spirits.???
 
There is a good understanding these days that homosexuality is not a choice. It is something that grows within the homosexual person, and appears in full force during puberty. It appears to be related to hormone imbalance early in life. For example : one of the causes of male homosexuality is boys that are third or fourth in a line of sons. They are much more likely to be homosexual. The explanation is that the mother has been, by that time, so invaded by male hormone (from earlier sons in the uterus) that she develops antibodies to testosterone. Later sons, in utero, have testosterone destroyed by those antibodies, so that they are born with female sexual behaviours.

It is seriously unlikely that anyone chooses to become a pedophile. I know for myself, and for other guys I have spoken to, that sexual activity with a prepubescent child is utterly emotionally abhorrent. So it is not a choice. I do not know if it is genetic, or some warped behaviour caused by illness or some developmental pathology.

Since it is involuntary, one could call it God-given. God makes pedophiles.
 
Doreen said:
Oh, I'm sure. But not with this attitude...
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yes, with that attitude. people are known to overcome all kinds of terrible circumstances, and people are known to be ungrateful, blaming, hateful babies, who have never had to overcome anything in their lives.
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
So what do you thank causes a person to be pedophile.???



Ive alredy suggested genes an/or enviroment (parents etc.)... if you rule those out what else is ther.... magic/evel spirits.???
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how about perversion? that's not magic.
 
Lori_7 said:
yes, with that attitude. people are known to overcome all kinds of terrible circumstances, and people are known to be ungrateful, blaming, hateful babies, who have never had to overcome anything in their lives.
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Sure. Exactly the arguments Southerners used to explain away the problems blacks faced in the racist south. They would point at 'success stories' and say it must be fair because this guy did well.
 
Doreen said:
Sure. Exactly the arguments Southerners used to explain away the problems blacks faced in the racist south. They would point at 'success stories' and say it must be fair because this guy did well.
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by their standards, while they themselves were their oppressors, and hated them all and felt no remorse for what they had done to them. :confused:

yet, there were success stories. and stories of failure from their oppressors. don't you think it's not the circumstances you're given, but what you choose to do in light of them that matters?
 
Lori_7 said:
by their standards, while they themselves were their oppressors, and hated them all and felt no remorse for what they had done to them. :confused:
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which is what the attitude I quoted sounded like. Some can turn around you should have. When the issue is not particular individuals, but why a group would be placed in those terrible circumstances. And people who are put in terrible circumstances tend to do worse than those who aren't. Of course some do well. And of course all should try to. But if we see a system where one group is put through hell and another is not the response to this should not be

some of those who were placed in hell got out. Especially if such a message came from God who would be just like the racist southerners then.

It is a significantly incomplete response.
yet, there were success stories. and stories of failure from their oppressors. don't you think it's not the circumstances you're given, but what you choose to do in light of them that matters?
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This is not really relevent. The issue is not should Jimmy try hard to live a good life despite being placed by God in a household where he was systematically raped and beaten and then pushed into violence in the home by the same parents, but why God would place some children in such homes since less of these children will thrive morally, emotionally than children from other homes. If you go to prisons the amount of people coming from abusive homes far outweighs random. This does not excuse the individuals from their choices. But that is not the issue. It is God's choice to put some people - who have not lived before in other lives - into situations they are less likely to do well in BY GOD'S standards. That is the question.
 
cluelusshusbund said:
So what causes "perversion".???
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when the desires of the flesh are more important than the truth.

desires and thought are very powerful things.

for the sake of argument, let's just lump pedophilia in there with all forms of lust, and all forms of sin. i'm always saying that sin is genetic, so that's fair.

so we are all given the desires of our flesh, which are wrong. and we are given our environments, which for all of us, are wrong in all kinds of ways. but we can desire to know the truth about ourselves, or not. i have been there, and i believe that if you desire to know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, you will seek god, and if you do seek god sincerely, you will know. and if you know, you can and will change your mind. and if you change your mind, your desires will change too.

i know this because it's happened to me in regards to my own lust. so i have no reason to believe it can't happen to anyone else.
 
Doreen said:
which is what the attitude I quoted sounded like. Some can turn around you should have. When the issue is not particular individuals, but why a group would be placed in those terrible circumstances. And people who are put in terrible circumstances tend to do worse than those who aren't. Of course some do well. And of course all should try to. But if we see a system where one group is put through hell and another is not the response to this should not be

some of those who were placed in hell got out. Especially if such a message came from God who would be just like the racist southerners then.

It is a significantly incomplete response.
This is not really relevent. The issue is not should Jimmy try hard to live a good life despite being placed by God in a household where he was systematically raped and beaten and then pushed into violence in the home by the same parents, but why God would place some children in such homes since less of these children will thrive morally, emotionally than children from other homes. If you go to prisons the amount of people coming from abusive homes far outweighs random. This does not excuse the individuals from their choices. But that is not the issue. It is God's choice to put some people - who have not lived before in other lives - into situations they are less likely to do well in BY GOD'S standards. That is the question.
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well, my answer is that i sure as hell would rather be a slave than a slave owner, and i'd rather be a victim than a perpetrator. that would be by god's standards.
 
Lori_7 said:
well, my answer is that i sure as hell would rather be a slave than a slave owner, and i'd rather be a victim than a perpetrator. that would be by god's standards.
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Fine. Then think of the child born into the family of slave owners. However you want to look at it some people have advantages given their births. Why would God make a universe like that?

You are also missing the point of my examples. Children who are abused stand a much greater chance of abusing others than children who are not abused. And yet God puts souls into these families, for some reason giving them a challenge other souls do not face. God did not, for example, put Jesus into a family like that.
 
Doreen said:
Fine. Then think of the child born into the family of slave owners. However you want to look at it some people have advantages given their births. Why would God make a universe like that?
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ironically enough, because of free will.

You are also missing the point of my examples. Children who are abused stand a much greater chance of abusing others than children who are not abused. And yet God puts souls into these families, for some reason giving them a challenge other souls do not face. God did not, for example, put Jesus into a family like that.
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we all have challenges, and we are all abused in lots of ways, and that doesn't stop with childhood. you say the issue is not with particular individuals, but i say it is, and believing that, i wouldn't weigh the accomplishments of one disadvantaged over another.
 
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