Did God create the universe?

Everything around you is explained via naturalistic mechanisms, why assume magic?
Can you give me a naturalistic mechanism whereby the coded programs contained in DNA were written. These codes are far more complex than any code ever devised by any human. I know of no natural process which can write codes that are more complex than computer codes.
 
Can you give me a naturalistic mechanism whereby the coded programs contained in DNA were written. These codes are far more complex than any code ever devised by any human. I know of no natural process which can write codes that are more complex than computer codes.
Who said DNA was "written?" What does that even mean? No scientific paper outlines a process where DNA just appears.

How did DNA get here? Like every other complex biological molecule, it evolved.
What did it evolve from? A simpler replicating molecule. Before that? A self replicating molecule.

Why should we think this? Every biological system with all the organisms within it evolve, the evolve today, they evolved before this, that is what the evidence tells us.
If you want to read the details then do some proper reading on OOL research, systems chemistry and Evolution.
 
But that aside: while the poster you quoted above is technically correct that Christianity forbids magic, vesting all faith in the hands of their god...
My point being: how is magic functionally different from God? Any event that one person might say is 'magic' can just as easily be ascribed by another person to 'god's mysterious ways'. Except for the rationalization of the person involved, they are indistinguishable.
 
Can you give me a naturalistic mechanism whereby the coded programs contained in DNA were written. These codes are far more complex than any code ever devised by any human. I know of no natural process which can write codes that are more complex than computer codes.
Yes you do. It's called evolution by natural selection.

But previous that we have chemical processes:

Sea of organics and hydrocarbons > Primordial soup > lipids form membranes > bubbles concoentrating proto-nutrients > enzymes build proteins > proteins build RNA > earliest life

We think it took about a half billion years or so to do this.
 
Who said DNA was "written?" What does that even mean? No scientific paper outlines a process where DNA just appears.

How did DNA get here? Like every other complex biological molecule, it evolved.
What did it evolve from? A simpler replicating molecule. Before that? A self replicating molecule.
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Why should we think this? Every biological system with all the organisms within it evolve, the evolve today, they evolved before this, that is what the evidence tells us.
If you want to read the details then do some proper reading on OOL research, systems chemistry and Evolution.
OK, so you don't really have an answer other than, "Well, it just happened." How is than any better than. "God did it?" The DNA of a genome, whether you want to recognize it or not, is a code that even Bill Gates admits is emulated by a computer program. There is no place in in your answer which explains how a self replication code is formed by any observed or known natural process. In order to evolve, you have to have something that exists to evolve from. You are picking up the story midstream without explaining what evolved. Evolution merely means change but you have to have something to change before you can change it.

Genomes are vastly complex systems. There is no such thing as a simple genome. Even the least complex genome is far more complex than the most complex creation of humanity. Perhaps it is you who needs to read some modern articles on this topic. The idea of a random process that can connect usable amino acids into usable peptides and then usable peptides into poly-peptides iand using those to produce usable proteins leads to a mathematical calculation that iis far beyond the impossible range considering the time that has existed even if we place the age of the Universe at 138 billion years. (By usable I am pointing out that there are many amino acids which do not appear in living cells plus many peptides and poly-peptides and proteins which are likewise not used by living cells.)

Plus you finally end up with the question of which came first -- the proteins of living cells or the DNA? The only known source of proteins from which living cells are built is DNA. So where did we get the proteins before we had the DNA to build them?
 
OK, so you don't really have an answer other than, "Well, it just happened." How is than any better than. "God did it?"
Of course we do. We have extant examples of all the components. Every physical component I listed is common and easily found, and every chemical process is, not only common, but inevitable, given the right chemical environment.


Wait? Are you a Darwinian evolution denier?


The DNA of a genome, whether you want to recognize it or not, is a code that even Bill Gates admits is emulated by a computer program.
This is a silly red herring.
Who cares what Gates thinks about DNA?
So what if computers emulate DNA? They emulate spaceships too. Because they're programmed to emulate.

There is no place in in your answer which explains how a self replication code is formed by any observed or known natural process.
Yes there is.
We have examples of that too.

The Krebs cycle is a self-replicating system that spontaneously occurs in the right conditions, often near ocean smoke plumes.

It is not life; it is way simpler than life. Yet it consumes atoms, creates copies of itself and excretes byproducts. The point is that there are plenty of precursors to self-replicating living systems.

Chemical cycles are common. Simple ones, complex ones too.


In order to evolve, you have to have something that exists to evolve from. You are picking up the story midstream without explaining what evolved.
You did not read what I wrote:

All of this, except the last step, is non-life, and not Darwinian evolution.

Sea of organics and hydrocarbons > Primordial soup > lipids form membranes > bubbles concentrating proto-nutrients > enzymes build proteins > proteins build RNA > earliest life

All of it is natural, deterministic chemistry.


Evolution merely means change but you have to have something to change before you can change it.
Asked and answered. See above.

Genomes are vastly complex systems. There is no such thing as a simple genome. Even the least complex genome is far more complex than the most complex creation of humanity.
Yes. No one disputes this. Why mention ity? You probably could have snipped this red herring out of the paragraph of whatever Creationist book you were quoting it from.

Perhaps it is you who needs to read some modern articles on this topic.
Evidence indicates that I have an idea what I am talking about. Evidence indicates that you are speeding through my words, and knee-jerk reacting to what you think I am saying.

I invite you to re-read my words more carefully.

The idea of a random process that can connect usable amino acids into usable peptides and then usable peptides into poly-peptides iand using those to produce usable proteins leads to a mathematical calculation that iis far beyond the impossible range
Ah, the old stand-by of the Creationist "just a random process".

Chemistry is not random. Put H and O in a room together and eventually you will get water; Inevitably, and every single time. There's nothing random about it.

Put the right organic components in a tide pool and you will get membranes and lipids forming. Every time.

considering the time that has existed
How you do know this? Because it just feels unlikely to you? Argument by incredulity.

even if we place the age of the Universe at 13.8 billion years.
Wait. what do you mean "even if"? Is it in doubt?

How long do you think the universe has existed?

(By usable I am pointing out that there are many amino acids which do not appear in living cells plus many peptides and poly-peptides and proteins which are likewise not used by living cells.)
Yes. So what?

Plus you finally end up with the question of which came first -- the proteins of living cells or the DNA?
Considering
1. DNA is a protein,
2. Proteins are formed from simpler building blocsk than DNA all the time,
I have to wonder why you are asking this question. Was it fed to you? Have you thought it through for yourself?

The only known source of proteins from which living cells are built is DNA.
This is a bait and switch. Just because current living cells only use those proteins does not mean its the only way proteins were formed pre-life.


Your argument is analogous to this: "The only way tall buildings are built today is with cranes. There were no cranes six thousand years ago, therefore the pyramids cannot have been built using cranes, and it follows that the pyramids can only have been built by divine fiat."

To make your argument, you had to completely ignore the precursor tools that led to the extant tools.


Proteins do form from amino acids in protected environments (such as, say, membranous lipids) before DNA was formed.



These arguments seem pretty old - dead-horse-like and long debunked. It kind of feels like you have been fed them but have not really thought through the steps.

So where did we get the proteins before we had the DNA to build them?
From amino acids, of course. See your logical flaw, previous paragraph.
 
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Dave: All I see in your reply is biology that was being taught 50 years ago as apologetics for Darwin who believed cells were made up of protoplasm. I do, however, respect Charlie for coming to a very logical explanation of the things he observed based on the limited knowledge of his day.
 
Dave: All I see in your reply is biology that was being taught 50 years ago as apologetics for Darwin who believed cells were made up of protoplasm.
This is a non-answer. You haven't addressed anything. Another red herring.

Nor, I might add, have you provided any alternative. It's not apparent what you're claiming. Are you asserting that evolution didn't happen? That - what? There is no life on Earth? You haven't said.

Anyway, nothing you've said so far weakens - let alone replaces - the argument for the advent of life from non-life.

"It's decades old." is not a refutation.

I'd think you'd lead with the strongest argument you've got, not the weakest.
 
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OK, so you don't really have an answer other than, "Well, it just happened." How is than any better than. "God did it?" The DNA of a genome, whether you want to recognize it or not, is a code that even Bill Gates admits is emulated by a computer program.
It CAN be emulated by a computer program. So can a great many other things.

There is no place in in your answer which explains how a self replication code is formed by any observed or known natural process.

Go to the Giant's Causeway in Ireland. There you will see hundreds of thousands of perfect hexagons, replicated by simple natural processes.

In order to evolve, you have to have something that exists to evolve from.

Yep. And that can be as simple as a piece of RNA, or even a set of nucleobases and amino acids. Once you have a molecule that can self replicate, evolution begins.


The idea of a random process that can connect usable amino acids into usable peptides and then usable peptides into poly-peptides iand using those to produce usable proteins leads to a mathematical calculation that iis far beyond the impossible range . . . .

And not at all necessary. All you need is a single molecule (or set of molecules) that can replicate themselves.

The only known source of proteins from which living cells are built is DNA.

Right. But again, you don't need the proteins that form modern living cells for self-replication. During the early Miller-Urey experiments, dipeptides were discovered. Dipeptides are the simplest possible protein - just two amino acids bound together.

And the Miller-Urey experiments only ran for a few days, not millions of years. If you can get a two amino acid peptide after a few days, you will get much longer peptides after a few million years.

 
Right. But again, you don't need the proteins that form modern living cells for self-replication.
This was the red herring that made me wonder if Concordius was perhaps quoting someone else, rather than having thought it through on his own.
 
OK, so you don't really have an answer other than, "Well, it just happened." How is than any better than. "God did it?" The DNA of a genome, whether you want to recognize it or not, is a code that even Bill Gates admits is emulated by a computer program. There is no place in in your answer which explains how a self replication code is formed by any observed or known natural process. In order to evolve, you have to have something that exists to evolve from. You are picking up the story midstream without explaining what evolved. Evolution merely means change but you have to have something to change before you can change it.

Genomes are vastly complex systems. There is no such thing as a simple genome. Even the least complex genome is far more complex than the most complex creation of humanity. Perhaps it is you who needs to read some modern articles on this topic. The idea of a random process that can connect usable amino acids into usable peptides and then usable peptides into poly-peptides iand using those to produce usable proteins leads to a mathematical calculation that iis far beyond the impossible range considering the time that has existed even if we place the age of the Universe at 138 billion years. (By usable I am pointing out that there are many amino acids which do not appear in living cells plus many peptides and poly-peptides and proteins which are likewise not used by living cells.)

Plus you finally end up with the question of which came first -- the proteins of living cells or the DNA? The only known source of proteins from which living cells are built is DNA. So where did we get the proteins before we had the DNA to build them?
This code is natural process . Over time , life will have a code . Order . Because of consistency Without which no life form could exist . Nor the periodic table .
 
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My point being: how is magic functionally different from God? Any event that one person might say is 'magic' can just as easily be ascribed by another person to 'god's mysterious ways'. Except for the rationalization of the person involved, they are indistinguishable.
The agent at work, is the difference, like I said. Divine action is that which is wholly in the power of a god or gods, the ultimate Other (until you get deep in the weeds in metaphysics, which is way off-target here). Magic, unless you're bloating the definition on purpose to the point of uselessness, is contingent on the action of the individual mortal. If you're ascribing a phenomenon to a god or spirit, I'd say that it's not magic.
 
The agent at work, is the difference, like I said. Divine action is that which is wholly in the power of a god or gods, the ultimate Other (until you get deep in the weeds in metaphysics, which is way off-target here). Magic, unless you're bloating the definition on purpose to the point of uselessness, is contingent on the action of the individual mortal. If you're ascribing a phenomenon to a god or spirit, I'd say that it's not magic.
Thing is, that's just a rationale, created by the believer. Magic, God or Pixie Dust are all equal contenders as far as the objective evidence goes.
Me believing it's actually pixie dust doesn't fundamentally change what it is.
 
Thing is, that's just a rationale, created by the believer. Magic, God or Pixie Dust are all equal contenders as far as the objective evidence goes.
Me believing it's actually pixie dust doesn't fundamentally change what it is.
Again, then all you're doing is stretching the definition to the point of uselessness. If you have words, they should signify specific things, which necessitate some boundaries between them.
 
Again, then all you're doing is stretching the definition to the point of uselessness.
That's not me doing that. You've hit upon exactly the criticism rational-minded people have about believers.

The challenge is on the believer to show that it's God acting, and not magic, or pixie dust. What is the objective difference? As opposed to what the believer tells themselves.

Tell us why it isn't a distinction without a difference.

Can you tell us an objective reason why the egg is to be cracked on the big end as opposed to the little end? I mean other than because you are a Big-Ender?
 
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