Devil's advocate

[Write4U]

You keep erecting the straw man "teach experience".

Experience is the ultimate natural teacher.

 

[Write4U]

If you only think abstraction is a dispassionate mental exercise then we are at an impasse. No need to continue, as you're not likely to ever understand

You need to learn the difference in meaning between the words "abstract knowledge" and "experiential knowledge"

I'll make it easy;

Definition of abstract
1a : disassociated from any specific instance : an abstract entity
b : difficult to understand : abstruse, abstract problems
c : insufficiently factual : formal, possessed only an abstract right
2: expressing a quality apart from an object : the word poem is concrete,poetry is abstract
3a : dealing with a subject in its abstract aspects : theoretical, abstract science
b : detached, impersonal : the abstract compassion of a surgeon

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abstract

This allows for impersonal Sympathetic mental understanding.

As opposed to:

Definition of experience
: direct observation of or participation in events as a basis of knowledge: the fact or state of having been affected by or gained knowledge through direct observation or participation
: practical knowledge, skill, or practice derived from direct observation of or participation in events or in a particular activity
b : the length of such participation
: something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through
: the conscious events that make up an individual life: the events that make up the conscious past of a community or nation or humankind generally
: the act or process of directly perceiving events or reality

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/experience

This compels a personal Empathetic physical response.

It's intersting to read that you are asking others to abstractly assume the role of "Devil's Advocate", while you in fact have assumed the role of "Devil's Advocate" in this discussion..

 

[Vociferous]

Again:

Empathy is generally divided into two major components:[48]

• Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy:[49] the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states.[48] Our ability to empathize emotionally is based on emotional contagion:[49] being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.[50]
• Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state.[21][48][51] The terms cognitive empathy and theory of mind or mentalizing are often used synonymously, but due to a lack of studies comparing theory of mind with types of empathy, it is unclear whether these are equivalent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Types​

Only somatic empathy, a third class, is a response to direct stimuli.
Affective empathy is a response to "another's emotional or arousal state".
Cognitive empathy is the mental modeling of another's state.

Psychopathy and narcissism have been associated with impairments in affective but not cognitive empathy, whereas bipolar disorder and borderline traits have been associated with deficits in cognitive but not affective empathy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Types​

We might be able to make some inferences from a person's inability to understand different types of empathy.

​

 

[Write4U]

I have been looking for an example of experiencing the emotion of empathy, while witnessing something extraordinary that goes far beyond the feeling of sympathy or can be described in the abstract. You must "experience" this, as the audience did.
I think I have found one example of such a transcendent event.

Start the clip @ 1:35 and experience "empathy"

 

[Write4U]

Vociferous said

"Only somatic empathy, a third class, is a response to direct stimuli." Yes, direct stimulus of the MNS

"Affective empathy is a response to another's emotional or arousal state." Yes, direct stimulus of the MNS

"Cognitive empathy is the mental modeling of another's state." Yes, direct stimulus of the MNS

OTOH, sympathy is the response to indirect stimulus of the MNS

As I said before (which you apparently missed), the mirror neural system of the brain (MNS) is the seat of any and all mental cognitive and/or internal physical experiences, direct or indirect.
It is the subconscious cognitive processing of many types of external and internal information or stimuli.

This is why the term contains the word "mirror"

Mirroring is the subconscious replication of another person's nonverbal signals.[1] This concept takes place in everyday interactions, and often goes unnoticed by both the person enacting the mirroring behaviors as well as the individual who is being mirrored. The activation of mirror neurons takes place within the individual who begins to mirror another's movements, and allows them a greater connection and understanding with the individual who they are mirroring, as well as allowing the individual who is being mirrored to feel a stronger connection with the other individual.

Mirroring is distinct from conscious imitation under the premise that while the latter is a conscious, typically overt effort to copy another person, mirroring is subconsciously done during the act and often goes unnoticed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology)

 

[Write4U]

We might be able to make some inferences from a person's inability to understand different types of empathy.

Yes, all are types of "empathy"

Obviously that implied ad hominem does not apply to me, I do understand the different types of empathy. No matter how you sort them, they are all expressions of "empathy".

What happened to "sympathy" ?

 

[Vociferous]

"Only somatic empathy, a third class, is a response to direct stimuli." Yes, direct stimulus of the MNS

"Affective empathy is a response to another's emotional or arousal state." Yes, direct stimulus of the MNS

"Cognitive empathy is the mental modeling of another's state." Yes, direct stimulus of the MNS

OTOH, sympathy is the response to indirect stimulus of the MNS

As I said before (which you apparently missed), the mirror neural system of the brain (MNS) is the seat of any and all mental cognitive and/or internal physical experiences, direct or indirect.
It is the subconscious cognitive processing of many types of external and internal information or stimuli.

Mirroring is the subconscious replication of another person's nonverbal signals.[1] This concept takes place in everyday interactions, and often goes unnoticed by both the person enacting the mirroring behaviors as well as the individual who is being mirrored. The activation of mirror neurons takes place within the individual who begins to mirror another's movements, and allows them a greater connection and understanding with the individual who they are mirroring, as well as allowing the individual who is being mirrored to feel a stronger connection with the other individual.

Mirroring is distinct from conscious imitation under the premise that while the latter is a conscious, typically overt effort to copy another person, mirroring is subconsciously done during the act and often goes unnoticed.

This is why the term contains the word "mirror" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology)

We might be able to make some inferences from a person's inability to understand different types of empathy.

Yes, all are types of "empathy"

Obviously that implied ad hominem does not apply to me, I do understand the different types of empathy. No matter how you sort them, they are all expressions of "empathy".

What happened to "sympathy" ?

If all are types of empathy, you seem to be saying that cognitive empathy is a "subconscious replication of another person's nonverbal signals".

In psychology, mentalization is the ability to understand the mental state, of oneself or others, that underlies overt behaviour. Mentalization can be seen as a form of imaginative mental activity that lets us perceive and interpret human behaviour in terms of intentional mental states (e.g., needs, desires, feelings, beliefs, goals, purposes, and reasons).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization​

You keep claiming all empathy is an autonomic mirror neuron response, but if so, why would we think better of people who were more empathetic? According to you, it's not in their ability to control.
I didn't say that did apply to you, but you do seem to be trying to agree while contradicting your own argument.

"Sympathy is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters." If you were putting yourself in the shoes of someone by pitying them, they would have to be expressing pity.

 

[Write4U]

You keep claiming all empathy is an autonomic mirror neuron response, but if so, why would we think better of people who were more empathetic? According to you, it's not in their ability to control.
I didn't say that did apply to you, but you do seem to be trying to agree while contradicting your own argument.

"Sympathy is feeling compassion, sorrow, or pity for the hardships that another person encounters." If you were putting yourself in the shoes of someone by pitying them, they would have to be expressing pity.

You've answered your own question. We don't admire people's subconscious empathic responses. They can be of all sorts, good and/or bad, based on their learned mirrored experience. Sharks enter into a state of "feeding frenzie". Their MNS exists only of "food means eating", there is no empathy nor sympathy.

OTOH, a hungry person will eat what's available and if they are closely related to another hungry person, they may share, that's empathy.

But we admire sympathetic people, i.e. people who deal out food to the poor , while they themselves are not hungry. That's expressing pity or sympathy. Like doctors who will voluntarily travel to assist in time of a natural disaster.

An interesting exception is found in The Bonobo chimp;

Sharing is one of the hallmarks of human behavior: give me a cookie and I’m more likely to give you one later. But our bonobo cousins have an odd variation on the practice. They share with strangers before friends.

Why choose an outsider over a friend?

In another experiment, the scientists found bonobos only shared when doing so led to a social interaction. Giving up some food to strangers lets these apes expand their social network. This behavior may have evolved to promote social tolerance, in contrast with chimps' sometimes deadly aggression against strangers. Which means that even when food is offered, there's still no such thing as a free lunch.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/bonobos-share-with-strangers-first-13-01-03/

But I will grant that, IMO, empathy and sympathy are related phenomena, both generated by the MNS. In the case of the Bonobo, it seems to be a little of both.
The rudimentary imprinting that generosity teaches the MNS to respond in kind at a later time.
"Give and you shall receive".

 

[Vociferous]

You've answered your own question. We don't admire people's subconscious empathic responses. ...

OTOH, a hungry person will eat what's available and if they are closely related to another hungry person, they may share, that's empathy.

But we admire sympathetic people, i.e. people who deal out food to the poor , while they themselves are not hungry. That's expressing pity or sympathy. Like doctors who will voluntarily travel to assist in time of a natural disaster.

We don't admire the empathetic?
Between that, and your persistence for using idiosyncratic definitions, I'm done here. There's no middle ground to be found.
Cheers.

 

[Write4U]

We don't admire the empathetic?

Nothing to be admired in empathy, it's a common trait of all people who have a normally developed brain.

Between that, and your persistence for using idiosyncratic definitions, I'm done here. There's no middle ground to be found.
Cheers.

I gave you the middle ground, you just failed to recognize it. But I can sympathize with your mental frustration......

 

[Vociferous]

Have a banana. It helps.

 

[Write4U]

Have a banana. It helps.

That was a nice sympathetic response. If you were a Bonobo it would in fact be an empathic response..