all you are doing scott is attempting to lower the moral standards of the united states.
I disagree, but feel free to actually post some arguments as to why you believe this is so...
all you are doing scott is attempting to lower the moral standards of the united states.
I recognize that this is what society believes. In cases where the 'diddling' is non consensual or where one of the partners didn't understand what they were getting into and later regretted giving their consent, I would also say that society is frequently if not always right. The main issue is when the 'diddling' -is- consensual , such as the case of Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Fualaau. Then it can become something quite different. I firmly believe that society owes them an apology for what they had to go through.
citing one case is not exactly a good example.
John99 said:one way to look at it is this way: you have a son or daughter who is in second grade (the first time she taught him), remember your kid goes to school to learn...
anyway, your child lets make it female, meets the teacher again at 13 and the teacher is 34 (the ages that they were first sexual encounter) you would be fine with this?
practically every post you've made on this subject is evidence to your stance, and to what type of person you are.I disagree, but feel free to actually post some arguments as to why you believe this is so...
scott3x said:leopold99 said:all you are doing scott is attempting to lower the moral standards of the united states.
I disagree, but feel free to actually post some arguments as to why you believe this is so...
practically every post you've made on this subject is evidence to your stance, and to what type of person you are.
Adults who are attracted to minors can range from healthy to deranged, just as adults attracted to adults can be.
In the past, homosexuality and bisexuality was thought to be a mental illness as well; thankfully, we don't see it that way these days. I personally believe that eventually we won't see pedosexuality and all-age sexuality as a mental illness as well, but I don't know how long this will take.
Is it ok for an adult to have sex with a minor?
Depends on what I guess I can call 'the 3 factors':
1- Most importantly, the consent of both parties. ancientregime has made some good points concerning consent, but I think that this is still a good general answer.
2- The law.
3- other societal factors.
scott3x said:JR said:At what age of the child, if any, do you think that sex with an adult would be wrong?
How are we defining sex here? After you do this, the 3 factors have to be applied.
Yes. However, there is another factor; in a theoretical future society where this would be permitted, if -one- person can be trusted not to do something sexually harmful to someone who wouldn't be able to make fully informed consent, then I think it could, in some future society, be waived for the other individual.
scott3x said:At what age do you think children are sexually mature enough for sex with adults?
I don't think we should be defining sexual maturity based on age.
I think we should be defining sexual maturity based on a testing scheme.
There could be different versions; one for someone who wishes to engage in sexual interactions with other people who are similarly mature and one (in the further future) wherein someone could be licensed as trustable to teach people about sexuality in a first hand manner.
scott3x said:Most people are strongly affected by them, however, and what this tends to mean is that people attracted to minors and people who just like being with them have begun to distance themselves from them in many ways precisely because they don't want to be condemned by their peers.
That's actually for the better, Scott.
If a person communicates to their peers that he or she has failed to comprehend socialization among their own generation, those peers will generally respond negatively.
Tiassa said:Society, with all its demand for decorum and melodrama, will make that point in diverse ways, and before anyone tries to point me to this or that tribal society, I would remind that if that tribal society was so well-organized, they would be world leaders and we who don't bang children would be the third-world tribe.
Tiassa said:scott3x said:Ofcourse not. You -can-, however, allow more privileges if someone demonstrates that they are more emotionally and/or psychologically developed, just as driver's licenses are awarded once you demonstrated that you have sufficient knowledge to drive.
Right there. Okay, Scott, I want to take a moment to make a certain point: This is where you're losing people. Trust me on this one. Among the people who have been disagreeing with you on the general principle, I don't know who is giving you what sympathy in terms of this or that facet of your argument. But I can assure you, sir, that whatever else can be acknowledged, this is where you're absolutely, without question, officially losing people.
Variable privileges based on psychological maturity that is ... measured how?
Tiassa said:Oh, just as we give driver's licenses to those who demonstrate proficient knowledge. I'm intentionally not making the joke about capability. Because, well, driving instructors .... Never mind. Right.
Tiassa said:To the one, I would point out that knowledge does not reflect emotional or psychological maturity.
Tiassa said:Road rage, hit-and-run. Not everyone with a driver's license is actually ready for the responsibilities of driving.
Tiassa said:To the other, what does the bureaucracy look like? You know, to certify that, say, this one is ready to fuck?
Tiassa said:So you want to know why people might look at you like you're some kind of pervert? Well, this is an example that I would call the nearest marker beyond the limit of what the logic of the anti-child-banging outlook accepts. As broadly as I might try to define everything in order to try to understand the merit of your point, I cannot believe you can't see how desperate your argument appears when it is so determined to find a reason that it's okay to fuck children that it should become something in any way resembling a bureaucratic consideration.
At ages 16 and 17, adolescents, as a group, are not yet mature in ways that affect their decision-making. Behavioral studies show that late adolescents are less likely to consider alternative courses of action, understand the perspective of others, and restrain impulses. Delinquent, even criminal, behavior is characteristic of many adolescents, often peaking around age 18. Heightened risk-taking is also common. During the same period, the brain has not reached adult maturity, particularly in the frontal lobes, which control executive functions of the brain related to decision-making.
nice one scott.And what type of person might that be?
scott3x said:Adults who are attracted to minors can range from healthy to deranged, just as adults attracted to adults can be.
Fine. Ok. The question of whether pedophiles are insane or not is arguable.
James R said:In the past, homosexuality and bisexuality was thought to be a mental illness as well; thankfully, we don't see it that way these days. I personally believe that eventually we won't see pedosexuality and all-age sexuality as a mental illness as well, but I don't know how long this will take.
James R said:scott3x said:James R said:Is it ok for an adult to have sex with a minor?
Depends on what I guess I can call 'the 3 factors':
1- Most importantly, the consent of both parties. ancientregime has made some good points concerning consent, but I think that this is still a good general answer.
2- The law.
3- other societal factors.
So, you don't agree that a minor cannot give informed consent to sex with an adult?
James R said:scott3x said:James R said:At what age of the child, if any, do you think that sex with an adult would be wrong?
How are we defining sex here? After you do this, the 3 factors have to be applied.
Well, let's start with sticking a penis into a child's vagina, just to be definite. Ok?
Now, tell me how your 3 factors apply to that.
James R said:scott3x said:Yes. However, there is another factor; in a theoretical future society where this would be permitted, if -one- person can be trusted not to do something sexually harmful to someone who wouldn't be able to make fully informed consent, then I think it could, in some future society, be waived for the other individual.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Try again?
James R said:scott3x said:James R said:At what age do you think children are sexually mature enough for sex with adults?
I don't think we should be defining sexual maturity based on age.
Ok then.
Do you think it is conceivable that a 4-year old could ever be "sexually mature"? How about an 8-year old? Could an infant be sexually mature, in your opinion?
James R said:scott3x said:There could be different versions; one for someone who wishes to engage in sexual interactions with other people who are similarly mature and one (in the further future) wherein someone could be licensed as trustable to teach people about sexuality in a first hand manner.
So, you envisage a situation in which a 25 year old could be "licensed" to "teach" a 4 year old about sexuality, do you?
James R said:What exactly would be involved in that? Would it involve the 25 year old sticking his penis in the 4 year old?
Tiassa said:At ages 16 and 17, adolescents, as a group, are not yet mature in ways that affect their decision-making. Behavioral studies show that late adolescents are less likely to consider alternative courses of action, understand the perspective of others, and restrain impulses. Delinquent, even criminal, behavior is characteristic of many adolescents, often peaking around age 18. Heightened risk-taking is also common. During the same period, the brain has not reached adult maturity, particularly in the frontal lobes, which control executive functions of the brain related to decision-making.
Tiassa quoted this MacArthur Foundation’s Research Network on Adolescent Development I believe.
Anyway, I have a problem with interpretations that lean to adolescents being incompetent mentally. From a Darwinian perspective, if the studies interpretations are correct, the human reproductive system maturity is far too fast and is a human defect. I think their interpretations are very much shaped by their cultural perceptions of children. Perhaps the brain is behaving this way around the launch of reproductive years because serve a greater purpose in ensuring survival. I don't have an immediate explanation, because it just occurred to me.
Um, I've skimmed over [the formal debate]. I don't suppose you could provide an excerpt?
If so, it may well suggest that female minors actually engaging in sexual intercourse before 16 may well not be a good idea for health reasons alone.
If they're going to have to do a written test, especially of the complexity of the test I mentioned in my last post, I think that eliminates the infant, the 4 year old and probably a fair amount of 8 year olds.
I think it might well be impossible to comfortably do such a thing in the case of a 4 year old female so I seriously doubt it.
I don't think we should restrict people's love lives based on statistical probabilities.
Well phlog, it seems the thread you opened has actually backfired on you.
Tiassa said:Society, with all its demand for decorum and melodrama, will make that point in diverse ways, and before anyone tries to point me to this or that tribal society, I would remind that if that tribal society was so well-organized, they would be world leaders and we who don't bang children would be the third-world tribe.
scott3x said:Um, I've skimmed over [the formal debate]. I don't suppose you could provide an excerpt?
I think you, especially, really need to read the whole thing.
James R said:scott3x said:If so, it may well suggest that female minors actually engaging in sexual intercourse before 16 may well not be a good idea for health reasons alone.
Only physical health counts, eh?
James R said:Can you conceive of any psychological or emotional reasons that sex between a minor and an adult might be a problem?
James R said:scott3x said:If they're going to have to do a written test, especially of the complexity of the test I mentioned in my last post, I think that eliminates the infant, the 4 year old and probably a fair amount of 8 year olds.
But an 8-year old who was able to complete a written test would be fair game for sex with a 25 year old, would she?
James R said:scott3x said:I don't think we should restrict people's love lives based on statistical probabilities.
Do you think a 4 year old has a love life?
Wow, I've heard some doozies. Some white men have claimed the cause of our first world circumstance was the fact we weren't black. It seems Tiassa implies we are first world because we don't bang our children. Actually, Jared Diamond has hit the nail on the head why white men ended up with the Guns, the Best Germs, and Steel. [1]
ancientregime said:I don't remember any child banging comments being part of the intellectual package he describes. Perhaps I should reread...
scott3x said:Tiassa said:There are certain societal functions I just don't know how to deal with. I'm told—more often than I'm comfortable with—that I'm really smart, but that doesn't mean I know how to deal with a job interview. Seriously, it's not that I'm the last honest fellow in the world; I'm capable of lying, just not as a ritual demand. Job interviews, religion, dating ... the common link is that they all involve ritualistic pretense that I just can't abide by.
I'm the same way
And yet you keep returning to knowledge, which is in itself insufficient.
Tiassa said:scott3x said:I agree, on all counts. But most of all, I think the saddest thing is that many parents can't or won't teach their children these things and I think that it's precisely these children that tend to have the most problems.
Okay, so I see the entire formula marked with emotional immaturity. And this is the context in which some young people think they want adult sexual partners.
Tiassa said:The idea of certifying which cultural immaturity is mature enough to have sex with is more than simply problematic.
Tiassa said:You're reaching way too far to justify this change.
Tiassa said:scott3x said:Amen. I believe, however, that americans are beginning to realize that abstinence only education simply doesn't work (even Palin's daughter essentially said this) and are beginning to move on.
And I believe an emotionally mature future will include the continued growth of the body of information that speaks against the advisability of adult-adolescent sexual relationships.
scott3x said:tDepends on what I guess I can call 'the 3 factors':
1- Most importantly, the consent of both parties. ancientregime has made some good points concerning consent, but I think that this is still a good general answer.
2- The law.
3- other societal factors.
Ok, but um.. you don't suppose you could provide that excerpt anyway? Or atleast the post number and whether it's in the top section or the bottom? I'm not made out of time you know; between your posts, those of ancientregime and Tiassa's posts, not to mention others, can literally eat my day away...
James R. said:3. Pedophilia is as "normal" as homosexuality. The only difference is that it is not yet accepted by society.
Unlike homosexuality, pedophilia does not involve informed and equal partners capable of mutual informed consent. Pedophiles take advantage of the trust of children, or else force them to engage in acts they do not wish to engage in. Pedophilic child abuse is comparable to rape, being sexual activity in the absence of informed consent.
Ok, but um.. you don't suppose you could provide that excerpt anyway?
However, I think we should focus on the teen years as I doubt we'll come to any sort of agreement in terms of the years before that...