crazy things on-line

[sculptor]

This by Suzi Marsh---sept 2020

Given the geological activity in the area, though, it may surprise you to hear that people have long had a presence here. At about the same time that the Colorado River carved the deepest parts of the ravine, humans first arrived in this part of Arizona. Then, more than a million years later, the first Europeans peered over the lip into the crevice below.

 

[mathman]

Humans arrived a million years before Europeans????? Highly unlikely!!!

 

[DaveC426913]

Old myth peddled by Creationists that humans and Europeans lived contemporaneously.

 

[sculptor]

makes you wonder about on-line authors and editors(or the lack thereof)

 

[foghorn]

''Human Science'' and European Science?

 

[Write4U]

Humans arrived a million years before Europeans????? Highly unlikely!!!

Not so hasty. Whereas the first "humans" may not have settled America, they did migrate into southern Eurasia some 1.7 million years ago.

The first migrations out of Africa
Homo ergaster

Homo ergaster (or African Homo erectus) may have been the first human species to leave Africa. Fossil remains show this species had expanded its range into southern Eurasia by 1.75 million years ago.

https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-first-migrations-out-of-africa/#

Who is to say they stayed there for a 1.5 million years without migrating further east into Northern America?

The First Americans

Humans colonized the New World earlier than previously thought—a revelation that is forcing scientists to rethink long-standing ideas about these trailblazers

This evidence confirmed what most archaeologists suspected about the location of this homeland. It also strongly suggested that the timing proposed in the Clovis First scenario was wrong. Geneticists now calculate, based on mutation rates in human DNA, that the ancestors of the Native Americans parted from their kin in their East Asian homeland sometime between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago—a difficult time for a great northern migration.

How do we know the ancestors of "native Americans" parted between 25,00 and 15,000 years ago, when that Clovis (New Mexico) is already way down from any crossing point from Asia to America. How long did it take that internal migration?

Huge glaciers capped the mountain valleys of northeastern Asia, at the same time massive ice sheets mantled most of Canada, New England and several northern states. Indeed, reconstructions of past climate based on data preserved in ice cores from Greenland and on measurements of past global sea levels show that these ice sheets reached their maximum extent in the last glacial period between at least 22,000 and 19,000 years ago. “But these folks were extraordinarily adept at moving over the landscape,” says David Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern Methodist University. “Their entire existence—and the existence of everyone they knew and the existence of their ancestors—was about adapting. They had a toolbox of tactics and strategies.”

....more.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-first-americans/

Perhaps the Asian ancestors parted before the glacial period , which sounds entirely reasonable. Perhaps not a million years but 100,000 years, maybe?

Note that the first "humans" in America were definitely not from European ancestry, thus that part of post #1 was correct.

One fact remains, Europeans were latecomers and "invaded" the Americas. Any declaration to the contrary is "white hubris".

 

[C C]

This by Suzi Marsh---sept 2020

Given the geological activity in the area, though, it may surprise you to hear that people have long had a presence here. At about the same time that the Colorado River carved the deepest parts of the ravine, humans first arrived in this part of Arizona. Then, more than a million years later, the first Europeans peered over the lip into the crevice below.

Why Is the Society for American Archaeology Promoting Indigenous Creationism?
https://quillette.com/2021/06/13/wh...archaeology-promoting-indigenous-creationism/

It's the social constructivist administrators that consider morality/legality trends to be more important than objective reality. One will just have to get accustomed to the various intellectual scams of the humanities turning the human or social sciences into their puppets, even more so than in the past.

But in contrast to other cultural beliefs, these thriving offshoots of postmodernism may not necessarily grant Christian myths any greater success at undermining research disciplines. Even though not strictly "white or Euro" in origin, Christianity is typically viewed as an historical accomplice of Western colonialism. So "evangelical" is probably too ideologically incorrect for leftangelical movements.

 

[sculptor]

Not so hasty. Whereas the first "humans" may not have settled America, they did migrate into southern Eurasia some 1.7 million years ago.

The first migrations out of Africa
Homo ergaster
https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-first-migrations-out-of-africa/#

Who is to say they stayed there for a 1.5 million years without migrating further east into Northern America?

The First Americans
How do we know the ancestors of "native Americans" parted between 25,00 and 15,000 years ago, when that Clovis (New Mexico) is already way down from any crossing point from Asia to America. How long did it take that internal migration? ....more.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-first-americans/

Perhaps the Asian ancestors parted before the glacial period , which sounds entirely reasonable. Perhaps not a million years but 100,000 years, maybe?

Note that the first "humans" in America were definitely not from European ancestry, thus that part of post #1 was correct.

One fact remains, Europeans were latecomers and "invaded" the Americas. Any declaration to the contrary is "white hubris".

40 odd years ago
I got into an argument with an anthro professor about the "clovis first" nonsense.
Roughly, I said that putting a "first date" on anything related to archaeology was ludicrous.
One thing led to another and he said "extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs" to which, I responded: "Unless they are yours"
ok
not a very auspicious beginning
however
We ended up doing much better, with reasoning and research.
ok
that being "said"
1 million years
would, most likely put the "humans" as erectus or heidelbergensis
ok
I do not think that to be beyond reason
however
referring to them as "humans" is a damned sloppy use of the language.
'''''''''''''''''''''
I will not dispute the claims of humans in california 130,000 years ago, nor seafaring humans in Crete 140,000 years ago.
I will not dispute the hypothesis of sea faring erectus, heidelbergensis, and/or nenderthlensis

If we start by admitting that what we do not know far exceeds what we do know. we have a firm foundation from which to start building knowledge.

 

[mathman]

There is no evidence (as far as I know) that there were any "humans" in the western hemisphere before modern man, date is open to question. Out of Africa is estimated around 60,000 to 70,000 years ago, so arrival in North America had to be much later.

 

[sculptor]

There is no evidence (as far as I know) that there were any "humans" in the western hemisphere before modern man, date is open to question. Out of Africa is estimated around 60,000 to 70,000 years ago, so arrival in North America had to be much later.

Perhaps
you should reconsider your dates?

 

[Write4U]

There is no evidence (as far as I know) that there were any "humans" in the western hemisphere before modern man, date is open to question. Out of Africa is estimated around 60,000 to 70,000 years ago, so arrival in North America had to be much later.

On what info do you base this?

There seems to be evidence that "hominims" were already moving North from Africa some 2 million years ago.

The first migrations out of Africa
Author(s); Beth Blaxland, Fran Dorey . Updated 04/03/20

This image is made from multiple photographs and data to construct the best approximation of what earth looks like from outer space. Most of the data came from MODIS on a satellite 700km above the surface. Taken Feb 8 2002. Image: NASA compsite © NASA

About 2 million years ago, the first of our ancestors moved northwards from their homelands and out of Africa.

Why did it take so long to leave Africa?
The extensive arid environments of northern Africa and the Middle East were a major barrier blocking movement out of Africa. Before they could spread out of Africa, our ancestors needed to develop physical and mental capabilities that would enable them to survive in these harsh environments where food and fresh water were highly seasonal resources.

Who left Africa first?
Homo ergaster (or African Homo erectus) may have been the first human species to leave Africa. Fossil remains show this species had expanded its range into southern Eurasia by 1.75 million years ago. Their descendents, Asian Homo erectus, then spread eastward and were established in South East Asia by at least 1.6 million years ago.

However, an alternate theory proposes that hominins migrated out of Africa before Homo ergaster evolved, possibly about 2 million years ago, prior to the earliest dates of Homo erectus in Asia. These hominins may have been either australopithicines or, more likely, an unknown species of Homo, similar in appearance to Homo habilis. In this theory, the population found at Dmanisi represent a missing link in the evolution of Homo erectus/Homo ergaster. Perhaps too, the evolution of Homo ergaster occurred outside of Africa and there was considerable gene flow between African and Eurasian populations.

This theory has gained more support in recent years due to DNA research. Evidence from a genetic study indicates an expansion out of Africa about 1.9 million years ago and gene flow occurring between Asian and African populations by 1.5 million years ago. More physical evidence is needed from key areas in Eurasia such as Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, but politics is currently making this difficult.

What made it possible to leave Africa?
While there is some debate about whether Homo ergaster was the first of our ancestors to leave Africa, they did possess the physical and cultural attributes that would have aided dispersal through the arid environments of northern Africa and the Middle East.

These attributes included:

1. a modern body shape with an efficient striding gait suited to travelling over long distances, although smaller statures are represented in the remains from Dmanisi
2. a sufficiently developed intelligence to cope with unfamiliar environments, although did not require a brain size much bigger than Homo habilis, with an average brain size of 610cc
3. improved technology to aid subsistence (Oldowan-style tools or Mode1 Technology have been found at sites in Dmanisi, Georgia, and northern China, both dating to 1.7 million years old)
4. a diet that included more meat and which increased the food supply options in seasonally arid environments

https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-first-migrations-out-of-africa/#

There is only one undeniable fact which separates "humans" from earlier hominim ancestors and that is ONLY "humans" have only 46 chromosomes and ALL other "great apes" have 48 chromosomes.

Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
Alec MacAndrew

Introduction

All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.

......more

Conclusion

The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor's chromosomes is overwhelming.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

 

[Write4U]

Human Family Tree
Homo group

• Homo sapiens
• Homo habilis
• Homo erectus
• Homo floresiensis
• Homo neanderthalensis
• Homo heidelbergensis
• Homo rudolfensis

Paranthropus group

• Paranthropus robustus
• Paranthropus boisei
• Paranthropus aethiopicus

Australopithecus group

• Australopithecus afarensis
• Australopithecus africanus
• Australopithecus anamensis
• Australopithecus garhi

Ardipithecus group

• Ardipithecus kadabba
• Ardipithecus ramidus
• Sahelanthropus tchadensis
• Orrorin tugenensis

© Copyright Smithsonian Institution

Dating

https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/dating

 

[Write4U]

My own speculation is that coastal migration was one of the main routes of human expansion. It provided the first perfect way to create a bidirectional mental map from and to base camps.

It provided greater travelling safety and where there were beaches there was easy going.

It provided a rich source of foods, a fact which had already been established at the tip of South Africa (

What is the oldest known human settlement?
Middle Paleolithic

The oldest known evidence for anatomically modern humans (as of 2017) are fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco, dated about 300,000 years old.
List of first human settlements - Wikipedia

Before

Homo sapiens, Homo erectus had already spread throughout Africa and non-Arctic Eurasia by about one million years ago. The oldest known evidence for anatomically modern humans (as of 2017) are fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco, dated about 300,000 years old.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_of_first_human_s...

Surprise cave discoveries may double the time people lived in the Americas

Barren and remote, Chiquihuite Cave in Mexico seemed an unlikely place for anyone to live. But stone objects recovered from deep inside the cave may tell another story.

....more

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ve-discovery-mexico-double-peopling-americas#

 

[mathman]

My own speculation is that coastal migration was one of the main routes of human expansion. It provided the first perfect way to create a bidirectional mental map from and to base camps.

It provided greater travelling safety and where there were beaches there was easy going.

It provided a rich source of foods, a fact which had already been established at the tip of South Africa (

What is the oldest known human settlement?
Middle Paleolithic

The oldest known evidence for anatomically modern humans (as of 2017) are fossils found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco, dated about 300,000 years old.
List of first human settlements - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_of_first_human_s...

Surprise cave discoveries may double the time people lived in the Americas ....more

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ve-discovery-mexico-double-peopling-americas#

You seem to misunderstand my point. There is no evidence of 'humans' other than modern man (sapiens) in the Western hemisphere. Sapiens out of Africa seems to have occurred between 60000 and 70000 years ago, placing an upper limit for humans in the Americas. I am well aware of the fact that homo erectus was all over the Eastern hemisphere, but there is no evidence of this species in the Western.

 

[Write4U]

You seem to misunderstand my point. There is no evidence of 'humans' other than modern man (sapiens) in the Western hemisphere. Sapiens out of Africa seems to have occurred between 60000 and 70000 years ago, placing an upper limit for humans in the Americas. I am well aware of the fact that homo erectus was all over the Eastern hemisphere, but there is no evidence of this species in the Western.

AFAIK, the ancestors of the American Indians came from the Eastern hemisphere and not from Europe.

 

[DaveC426913]

AFAIK, the ancestors of the American Indians came from the Eastern hemisphere and not from Europe.

? Did anyone say otherwise?
Did Mathman say American ancestors originated in Europe? If so, I missed it. Can you point to it?

 

[Write4U]

? Did anyone say otherwise?
Did Mathman say American ancestors originated in Europe? If so, I missed it. Can you point to it?

Did say anyone was wrong? If so I missed it. I made a simple statement without mention of dates. I'm glad you agree.

There does seem to be a date gap between 70 thousand years and 1.7 million years

3. improved technology to aid subsistence (Oldowan-style tools or Mode1 Technology have been found at sites in Dmanisi, Georgia, and northern China, both dating to 1.7 million years old). https://australian.museum/learn/science/human-evolution/the-first-migrations-out-of-africa/#

Can anyone account for that?

 

[sculptor]

You seem to misunderstand my point. There is no evidence of 'humans' other than modern man (sapiens) in the Western hemisphere. Sapiens out of Africa seems to have occurred between 60000 and 70000 years ago, placing an upper limit for humans in the Americas. I am well aware of the fact that homo erectus was all over the Eastern hemisphere, but there is no evidence of this species in the Western.

.fyi

'Our scenario suggests that there was an early modern group of humans in Greece by 210,000 years ago,
...'
Early H. sapiens fossils from Israel are known at about 170,000 and 120,000 years old.
...
If these latest analyses are correct, H. sapiens entered Europe over 150,000 years earlier than we thought, ...
from:
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...een-in-europe-150-000-years-earlier-than.html

......................'
Modern human teeth that are at least 80,000 years old have been found in China. Museum human origins expert Professor Chris Stringer says the discovery is a 'game-changer'.

Researchers have dated 47 human teeth found in a cave in China to between 80,000 and 120,000 years ago - at least 20,000 years before modern humans were thought to have ...
When dated, the stalagmite gave a minimum age of 80,000 years for the human teeth buried below, while an analysis of mammal fossils found alongside the teeth yielded an upper limit of around 120,000 years.
from:
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...asia-far-earlier-than-previously-thought.html

...............'
An early-modern human fossil from a cave in Israel has been dated to around 180,000 years ago,
...
The find breaks the long-established 130,000-year-old limit on modern humans outside of Africa. I think the new dating hints that there could be even older Homo sapiens finds to come from the region of western Asia.'
...
The researchers dated teeth from the jaw and flint tools found with the remains, obtaining an average age for the specimens of about 177,000-194,000 years old.
from:
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news...ica-40-000-years-earlier-than-we-thought.html

.................................................
at the risk of redundancy, I reiterate what I said 40 odd years ago
Roughly, I said that putting a "first date" on anything related to archaeology was ludicrous.

Who knows what the next shovel will turn up?
When the "science is settled"--- it stops being science?

 

[DaveC426913]

Did say anyone was wrong? If so I missed it. I made a simple statement without mention of dates.

That's what I thought, another non sequitur.

 

[Write4U]

That's what I thought, another non sequitur.

Yep, just another non sequitur. A term that never applies to any of your posits, which are always completely original.
I learn so much from you, it makes me warm and fuzzy all over.