China and Bumper Planes...

[patriotSTORM]

Its really easy to bitch about something, but I dont suppose you have any solutions?

My views on capitilism and democracy? It isnt perfect, but it is sure better than communism and dictatorships. The only thing that communism manage to spread equally was unhappiness.

 

[Tiassa]

A possible solution

When I was a child, Christians taught me:

* God first
* Others second
* Self last

Whether or not we believe in God, I still like the model.

If Capitalists could possibly put aside their inherent, lovely greed long enough to take a look around without assessing the financial worth of a thing, they might find that by simply treating each other well, we can reduce a great number of our problems.

While I'm not trying to pick on Christians for the sake of this post, they're a great example: American Christians are, often, Americans first and Christians second. It isn't so much, Whatsoever you do unto the least of my brethren, as it is, Yeah, I see, but I gotta take care of myself first, right? C'mon honey, we need to go get a new DVD player and home theatre system.

In this light, why is it that my company's charity outreach is through our PR department? Because reputation and sales are the important consideration. At our last charity blackmail (soon to be repeated), a list of charities offered to contribute to did include mostly religious groups of one general persuasion, but included no "controversial" charities; the token "cultural" charity was a Christian outreach to indigenous tribes. But this godless insurance company is not out there funding needle exchanges, condom distribution, birth control information, or vital, immediate charity needs because of what such press might do to sales. People are always happy to give their second-hand clothes to international disaster relief, but what the heck is so hard about giving a little to, oh, HIV prevention education? There's how immediate the greed is, and even I am subject to such considerations: I understand that this child in Armenia or wherever has been leveled by a flood or an earthquake needs this sweater. But I also understand that I need to do something to protect my own child (theoretic at this point) from local threats, such as, oh, HIV. People are, in this comparison, so greedy that they'll send their secondhand clothes halfway around the world, but will stand on morals against condom distribution or needle exchanges without thinking that somebody, someday, in town, might bleed on your child, or to be a little less counterdramatic, infect your kid.

The solution's not hard: People tend to treat the world as if it is their own playground designed to their own preferences. Quite simply, we/they (I recognize that I am an American, and inherently riddled with such contradictions, and thus recognize the need to include myself among the afflicted) need to stop doing this.

I encountered the spirit of Khidr yesterday. And then I saw a dead woman walk; she asked me for a cigarette. All things considered, perhaps I'm being a little oversensitive on this topic.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[Corp.Hudson]

"Oppressive" governments

I repeat my belief - No government stays in power without the peoples consent.

The soviet union, when it existed, was very popular with the people. In fact, in a recent poll conducted by Newsweek found the seventy-something percent (I could go look for the exact figure, but I am lazy) of Russians regretted its fall, and the subsequent rise of democracy and capitilism. Also 57% of Russians supported Putins recent actions to end free press. This is especially telling because Newsweeks bias should have produced figures that said exactly the opposite.

Here in America, we love to bitch about other countries not being "free" and democratic. Our ethnocentrism leads us to believe that our governmental system, since it has worked for us, should therefore work for everyone else. This is not true. Other cultures prefer different systems of government. This would explain that while it is incomprehensible to us Americans that dictators would have the support of the people, Stalin was enormously popular in Russia. Mao was enormously popular in China, even during the cultural revolution. Saddam is popular today in Iraq. Castro is popular today in Cuba.

A simple fact that us ethnocentrists need to realize is that the American way is NOT the right way. It is not the lesser of two evils. It is simply the <b>American</b> way. It works for Americans, not neccesarily other people. Hence the reason that globalism is so bad.

 

[Boris]

Corp.

You have something there, but it's incomplete. It is true that certain countries tend to be more predisposed toward democracy &c than others. But that is as much a fault of culture/ethnicity as it is of the previous governments and the associated history. Culture and government are not distinct; they co-evolve. Therefore, imposing a new government upon a culture that is "incompatible" with it, will gradually change both the government and the culture, toward some sort of a compromise state which in itself is not final but only a starting point for further change.

At any rate, the American way doesn't only work for America. It has been successfully adopted by many other countries in the world. Granted, it is never copied verbatim but instead adapted to the local realities -- but the general principles of it are sound and universally applicable: representation, checks and balances, regulated market economy, periodic reconstitution of government, freedoms of speech, expression, etc., equal rights for everyone -- and so on. For example, it works quite well in Taiwan -- despite the fact that the people of Taiwan started from the exact same cultural point as the people of China, just prior to the revolution.

And globalization is not a bad thing. It benefits countries in the same way that U.S. states are benefited from being part of a union. In the very long term, globalization will create a stabilizing world economy, will work to equalize standards of living, and will be a unifying force capable of achieving that long-held dream of a single humanity without nationalism, nor ethnic or racial barriers. Globalization will homogenize humanity -- and while some can view that as a loss of diversity, I would argue that it is a gain of cohesiveness and a new sense of brotherhood. Diversity will endure and continue to emerge in other ways (for example in the form of "subcultures"), stemming from freedom of expression.

Of course, over the short-term the process of globalization stirs the waters and results in major "dislocations", as Bush recently put it. I do not necessarily agree with the mode in which globalization is currently progressing (i.e. via essentially unregulated laissez faire capitalistic conquests) -- and I do not necessarily like all of the growing pains associated with that (e.g. sweat shops, corruption of fledgling democratic governments, severe environmental damage) -- and I would strongly argue for a more controlled, more lawful and humane process. However, I have no problem with the overall concept of globalization independently of the actual implementation -- in fact, I welcome it.

 

[ripleofdeath]

hhhhhhmmmmmmm
i once belived that globalisation was a bad thing.
then i saw the reality of detached social services in our country.
wouldnt it be great...if we could put asside all the racial,class and physical caveman-like mental phobias that seem to grip such a diverse range of the population.
its such a HUGE solarsystem never mind the galaxy.
small mindedness is a self perpetuating doctrine.
I DO WONDER ALLOT how big-a-part, fear in its self plays in this...?
the fear of ones own self..that is.
it does make me feel exasperated when i see things like
CHURCH run pregnancy advice.
and other such perverted doctrine of honestly held helpfull intent.
CCF falls in the same catagory.
hey borris.. just being a little "picky"... but NO system seems to have worked properly yet... none that i have heard of anyway.
you soud like a true "tutor" in your delivery...we need more...
tiassa your just soo "on the money"-"shining like gold"-"better than a ten bob note" and genraly overflowing with a wealth of great deseminationaly multi-plyable true-isms... ill give you my vote for the presedency...
ONE OF MY LITTLE WISHES-...is to see WHERE all the money REALY goes.
groove on all

 

[Tiassa]

consent of the governed

No government stays in power without the peoples consent.

You have precedent. Locke, Rousseau, and other European philosophers of the period contributed to the inclusion of the phrase, "Consent of the Governed" in our Declaration of Independence. It is a founding principle of being American.

If Americans have forgotten what this means, it is by design of those who would usurp the people's power in pursuit of dominion and wealth. It's why I resent the armed-to-the-teeth non-voters enforcing their right to protect themselves from "the gov'mint".

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[patriotSTORM]

Re: too rite

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
i think you could be rite about the orrigin of the act itself
because if it was that secret they would have baild out and dumped the plane at high speed into the sea
so i thought anywho
groove on

No, under no circumstances would a commander of a P3 Orion ditch their aircraft into the ocean. The crew has no means of escape - no ejection seats, and ditching would be suicide. The pilot in command decided that his crews lices were worth more than the P3 airframe in the hands of the Chinese - and good on him. After all, you can rebuild an airframe, but you can only patch together broken families.

I doubt that the situation was engineered by CIA, let alone the US. Far too many variables. Had they been keen on a confrontation, they would have made sure that the US came off first - not with the spy plane and 24 crew in Chinese hands.

Incidently, a similar incident occured in the 1980s between a Norwegian P3 Orion and a Soviet Su27 Flanker. No fatal;ities, both aircraft making it back to their respective bases. Both parties were eventually found to be at fault.

Another point - in the 1970s a Russian helicoptor crew crashed inside Chine. They were released one year later, after funny things forced onto them like a comprehensive course in Mao's little red book.

 

[ripleofdeath]

hey patriotstorm...
didnt they have parachutes???
i wouldnt know!
about youre quote at the end of youre posts
WHAT about the man that made the armour for the man in battle?
your statement kinda leaves this point out
i can get the gist of what it may... mean but im not that sure
i am guessing here...
you are in the millitary?
wha do you do?
if i was i would be an armourer i love to play with bomb making things and im a sucker for a good fireworks displays
cos fireworks displays are not designed to kill people
groove on

 

[wet1]

Bumper Cars&Planes

Another great subject that I cannot let go without comment. In regards to the spy plane (P3 Orion) and it’s equipment. The special data gathering equipment was disabled and reported back as such prior to landing the plane. The equipment in question has a breakaway plastic key. If in danger of being taken or compromised, the key is broken and the programming inside wiped leaving only a box of components without connection to how it functioned. (At least this is the story disseminated for public consumption.) There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese pilot was at fault. The Orion is not a jet and masses a good bit more in weight than the Chinese fighter craft. That means it is considerably slower and less agile. A fighter craft is basically all engine (picture pilot with legs gripped tightly around so as not to get left behind) for speed. The jet approached from the rear of the Orion. These planes don’t have rear view mirrors! Before the crew could have seen the jet from a window it would have passed them by in an eyeblink. The Chinese pilot had problems before with this kind of stunt or so was reputed by the news sources. It matters not if we get the plane back. Intelligence gathering is always risky. There have been quite a few “incidents over the years” due to this activity. To mind, Gary Powers and the U2 and the captured spy ship, (whose name at the moment eludes me).
I think Dubba decided to play games to cut down on having our boys in custody by a foreign government and the possible backlash a protracted occurrence could have led to. A few words lied out of the side of the mouth with the pres as spokesman. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems a lot cheaper than dragging this out.
I do question allowing China a most favored trade status. With the active spying going on it doesn’t sound as if China can be trusted to me. Especially not as a trading partner! Why should we help their economy when they’re up to such antics? The same for Russia for that matter.
Governments are always secret for various reasons. Either they don’t want you to know what they are capable of or planning, or they are jealously protecting state secrets. (Clinton and Monica) As long as this behavior exists there are going to be problems. I’m not saying go out and give them everything we worked to get. Far from it. But as long as this is the attitude there will be friction between the haves and the have nots.

 

[patriotSTORM]

Originally posted by ripleofdeath
hey patriotstorm...
didnt they have parachutes???
no

about youre quote at the end of youre posts
WHAT about the man that made the armour for the man in battle?
your statement kinda leaves this point out
i can get the gist of what it may... mean but im not that sure
means, in three words, who dares wins

i am guessing here...
you are in the millitary?
nope

if i was i would be an armourer i love to play with bomb making things and im a sucker for a good fireworks displays
cos fireworks displays are not designed to kill people
but fireworks commemorates terrorist activities, where the aim was to blow up parliament - thereby killing people. Not that different, is it?

 

[patriotSTORM]

Re: Bumper Cars&Planes

Originally posted by wet1
Another great subject that I cannot let go without comment. In regards to the spy plane (P3 Orion) and it’s equipment. The special data gathering equipment was disabled and reported back as such prior to landing the plane. The equipment in question has a breakaway plastic key. If in danger of being taken or compromised, the key is broken and the programming inside wiped leaving only a box of components without connection to how it functioned. (At least this is the story disseminated for public consumption.) \
The hardware, esp the radar (which I doubt could be wipped by short circuiting) will still be there. A lot of the software, if not all of it, will be gone, but the hardware will be in Chinese hands.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Chinese pilot was at fault. The Orion is not a jet and masses a good bit more in weight than the Chinese fighter craft. That means it is considerably slower and less agile. A fighter craft is basically all engine (picture pilot with legs gripped tightly around so as not to get left behind) for speed.
Fighters are made for many things, speed actually secondary. Endurance and payload are primary (good exanples: F15, F18, Su27) with maneuvrebility and cruising speed next (MiG29, F16, F22)
The jet approached from the rear of the Orion. These planes don’t have rear view mirrors!
Actually, I think they do (mounted on cockpit frame) I am pretty sure they are used for checking wing clearance when taxiing (so not much use in the given situation)
Before the crew could have seen the jet from a window it would have passed them by in an eyeblink.
THe Chinese aircraft would have definitly being flying in formation -close escort - with the Orion, so I doubt that that is true.

The Chinese pilot had problems before with this kind of stunt or so was reputed by the news sources.
Sure the Chinese print said the same thing about the US!

It matters not if we get the plane back.
Some estimates have put the setback damage to US survelliance ops in the region as 10 years (stratfor) I think they would indeed want the plane back!

I do question allowing China a most favored trade status. With the active spying going on it doesn’t sound as if China can be trusted to me. Especially not as a trading partner! Why should we help their economy when they’re up to such antics?
I think that George will be on the same wavelength. But I doubt the response would be THAT severe.

The same for Russia for that matter.
Once an enemy, always an enemy?

Governments are always secret for various reasons.
Damn, I think our government is public. At least, they appear in the news

Either they don’t want you to know what they are capable of or planning, or they are jealously protecting state secrets. (Clinton and Monica) As long as this behavior exists there are going to be problems.
'A government cannot exist without secrets"
Tom Clancy

I’m not saying go out and give them everything we worked to get. Far from it. But as long as this is the attitude there will be friction between the haves and the have nots.
But is it possible to create a society with all haves? Sure, we have the resources, but do we, as a civilisation, have the ability to implement it? And would the people who control the reigns of the world, the haves who are in power, want this to happen?

Kinda the same with wars. The only reason they occur is that they are so very profitable to the arms dealers - who practically run each super powers foreign and trade policies. Gross generalisation, I know, but that is how I see it

Sorry about the layout folks, yet to get my head around replying to fragments of quotes.

 

[Bowser]

Re: Bumper Cars&Planes

Originally posted by wet1

I do question allowing China a most favored trade status. With the active spying going on it doesn’t sound as if China can be trusted to me. Especially not as a trading partner! Why should we help their economy when they’re up to such antics?

China offers slave labor: Produce your product in China for 25 cents; sell it in America and Europe for 100 dollars. We really want to <b>use</b> the potential which is...how many Chinese?

 

[Corp.Hudson]

Can we say racist?

What most people forget is that in most places in China, 25 cents will buy you a full meal. It is important to remember that money does not have the same value everywhere across the world. In some places (like China) the cost of living is very low, while in some places (like the United States) the cost of living is high.

 

[ripleofdeath]

true ...but...
subdugation(if ive spelt it rite)
is a bad thing anywhere!
as im sure you know ...corp
BUT the chineese use political prisoners to make these things that you and my fellow country people buy!
we need to boycot china from a consumer point!!!!!!!!
dont think that the greedy 'already rich" govt and big buss will say "hey i wont buy your products till you pay for the labour and stop imprisoning people for what they think"
they will say "MORE PROFIT PLEASE"
REGARDLESS OF WHO IS KILLED IN THE PROSCESS!
look at petrol and phmacuticals companies!
how could a GOOD doctor be SOO rich????????????????????????????????????????????????
think about that one!
groove on all

 

[wet1]

Racism and spying

The racist ideas never entered my mind At least as an axe to grind or a put down on a particular group of folks. The put down that did come was for an action, which to my mind is quite different from a race of people. My issue was that I don’t think we should support a government who is actively showing hostility towards us. That we should not trade with those whose behavior shows such action. Why invite more grief? Let them stew in their own juices for such actions.
Also while I’m at it. It is not that I feel Russia is still an enemy because it was so in the past. The comment was made because Russia is still at the same activities with spying. Every few years it surfaces as new people are caught accepting money for spying. I know, we do it to. Fighting fire with fire. Because we do does not mean that I agree with it. I don’t. Now I’m sure there are those who will take me to task for such statements but that’s ok. These are my belief’s, right or wrong. Others are invited to their own.

 

[ripleofdeath]

good points wet1
it all helps fest the paranoid state that they need to justify killing and spying and child slavery and it goes on in every country...
only because too many people dont want to lose the benefits of what they recieve from such perversity...
too sad
now that religon has little hold of fear over the populace "they" need to make people fear everything!
... makes great sales potential aswell...
extra mobile phones bigger fences...more guns...
more computer software...and most importantly more UN-ACCOUNTABLE POWER for the sick-oh poor little children who had no real mother or father that need to feel in control of peoples lifes....
too sad
fruaid (froi-d) ?
was very clever in some of his discoveries-(as such)
QUESTION would alot of people turn on there neighbour if they had no common enemy?
groove on all

 

[wet1]

In the thread of China and what got us here, Bush has decided to reinstate the spy flights near China’s border. I guess we’re back to being the bully. I hope this does not put us back to another brush with the Chinese Air Force. Do you think that we’ll have an easy of a time if this incident happens again?

QUESTION would alot of people turn on there neighbour if they had no common enemy?

Yes, I think that people would turn on their neighbor if there were no other common enemy. History shows a lot of that. Look over at the religious threads for answers or at least options to point it out. It seems that one of the benefits of being the victor (spoils) is the ability to rewrite the history of that people/state. Always to upbraid the victor as being justified and heroic in tackling the enemy and showing them the error of their ways. extremely rare, if ever to see mention that it might have been a rich state of which the victor got the access of the riches.

 

[ripleofdeath]

true
so bush (is that the old one or the new one? [could ya tell?])
i suspect that bush has been brain washed because he
has no soul to see!
it is quite possible in my op' that he is using the age old common enemy to allay the camera pointers from his dirty tricks campaign.
i could well belive that if a "first contact" issue was pressed with him by another race he would try and make them out to be bad anywho...!
i hope the crew get a "line of fire" pay rise...
and a jolly big medal for bravery in the face of the mortaly disgruntled...
unless china has already placed tactical nukes inside
the usa i cant belive they would dare takeover tiawan
or any other pre cursor to a state of war!
groove on all

 

[wet1]

Lil’ Dubya

Lil’ Dubya has been cursed with living in his daddy’s shadow. I would imagine that it is something that he feels a bit threadbare about by now. While I’m sure that daddy is still there to advise I think that Lil’ Bush want’s to distance himself from that appearance.
I would not go so far as to say he doesn’t have a soul. There is an old saying that goes, Politics makes strange bedfellows. I think that if you look between the lines you’ll see some of his advisors in action. The trouble with advisors is that it is hard to surround yourself with those who see things as you desire and don’t have their own agendas to promote. And if you thought Reagan was a cowboy, wait till you get a load of this Texan.
I don’t know that those who were held after the incident where paid anything more than usual, but you can be sure that they got some kind of ribbon out of it. Napoleon once made the observation that he’d made a marvelous discovery. That men were willing to lay down their lives for a bit of ribbon.

 

[ripleofdeath]

too true...
maybe a jamming system would be worth the investment
i have never heard of it being done to disable a jet though...
you could do it by 'random remote transfer' to an online game called 'land your own mig'..
he he... sorry... now im getting a bit evil.
just a joke by the way

groove on all