Calling all keyboard protestors, ranter and ravers

[The Esotericist]

There is suffering from unemployment, but unemployment isn't caused by that 1%.

No, of course not. Out-sourcing, unnecessary, uneven and unfair government regulation, corporate and fiduciary bailouts, monetary and financial manipulation, these all have never caused any unemployment or devaluation of the working classes savings and purchasing power.

I can see you watched that whole documentary with an open mind, in honest attempt to understand what has been happening to our nation in the past forty years. . . . :bugeye:

Yes, but the fallacy is that because of the wealth of that 1% the rest of us are suffering

As you saw from the documentary, the 1% have the power and connections to get the laws passed to favor them. While the poor and regular folk of this nation have their labor and assets taxed and seized, the 1% have their safely sheltered and squirreled away, overseas or in too big too fails. Some even have laws specifically tailored just for them!

 

[adoucette]

Those are caused by the top 1%?

I don't think so.

Outsourcing is a double edge sword.

We make TONS off of other country's work that is outsourced to our companies.

And more importantly a global economy makes for a richer world and more consumers for the US high end products.

The fact is there is no simple answer, but by and large the richest people are the leaders of industry and unemployment isn't one of the things they want to see.

More jobs ==> more salaries ==> more consumers.

And devaluation causes more losses to the richest, not the poorest.

So clearly that isn't in their best interest either.

 

[The Esotericist]

I have no problem with the wealth of the 1%, they and their family earned it, it's the American way and what has made this nation prosperous and great. It is what they are doing with it and the way they are manipulating the government in order to keep it and make it grow in an unfair and unethical way over the rest of the population, and at the expense of the national interest, which has me irked.

 

[adoucette]

How so?

 

[adoucette]

As you saw from the documentary, the 1% have the power and connections to get the laws passed to favor them. While the poor and regular folk of this nation have their labor and assets taxed and seized, the 1% have their safely sheltered and squirreled away, overseas or in too big too fails. Some even have laws specifically tailored just for them!

Ah the bottom 25% pay zip taxes and don't get their assets seized without cause while the top pay the most taxes by far.

And while some banks and car companies were kept up with TARP funds a LOT failed (WAMU, Countrywide, Bear Stearns, Wachovia) and took with them the assets of lots of very wealthy people and conversely almost no poor people.

 

[The Esotericist]

Those are caused by the top 1%?

I don't think so.

Outsourcing is a double edge sword.

We make TONS off of other country's work that is outsourced to our companies.

And more importantly a global economy makes for a richer world and more consumers for the US high end products.

The fact is there is no simple answer, but by and large the richest people are the leaders of industry and unemployment isn't one of the things they want to see.

More jobs ==> more salaries ==> more consumers.

And devaluation causes more losses to the richest, not the poorest.

So clearly that isn't in their best interest either.

You mean you don't feel so. It's clear you know very little. We don't make tons off of other country's work that is outsourced for our companies you silly man, the ONE PERCENT make all the money!

It may make for an over all richer world, but for the masses, it means a filthy more toxic environment. It means separation from nature and long hours in sweat shops. Sure, it means more loot for a concentrated elite, whoopee. So what can all these poverty stricken consumers that are laden with debt afford? The simple things, food, clothing. . . and now it seems water is being privatized. Lots of these things are being produced with less and less labor and lower costs. So there are more and more poor with barely enough to buy the basics and pay rent.

High end products? What high end products? Do you mean weapons of mass destruction? :bugeye: The U.S. invented the T.V. and used to produce all the world's T.V.'s. Do you want to guess how many T.V.'s we produce now? Apparently no one told you we are now a service economy by design. Everyone works at McDonald's, hair salons, pawn shops, payday loan check cashing vendors, liquor stores, tax preparers, etc.

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor)[1] often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae, translating to law of parsimony, law of economy or law of succinctness, is a principle that generally recommends, when faced with competing hypotheses that are equal in other respects, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions.[2]

Actually, the answers are pretty simple. Sound money, government non-intervention. Do away with the Zionist banking cartel, and the Keynesian bullshit economics that we, our parents, our grandparents, and our great-grandparents have been brainwashed with by the 1% as an excuse to grow the government and get involved with the peoples lives. The first priority of government since the introduction of this idea has always been, not to help protect the nation, or regulate interstate commerce, but to grow itself and the elites.

Less jobs ===> wage slavery ====> economic contraction and decay

Obviously my take on things is the correct one. . . . look around for the past, oh, say decade or so?

And devaluation causes more losses to the richest, not the poorest.

So clearly that isn't in their best interest either.

Really? Really?!? Know you nothing? The elites can protect their assets with a whole host of financial tricks, investing in different financial instruments that are protected against devaluation, commodities that rise while fiat currency devalues, and all other sorts of things. To them, devaluation is good, it is just another way to get even RICHER!

I know a lot of people that live on less that 20k a year. Do you want to know how many of them have a financial planner or financial planner, or have access to markets or investment strategies, or even have anything extra to take advantage of a devaluation of a fiat currency? I am beginning to get the impression that you only see and read what is in your interest to believe in your own little world. . .

 

[nietzschefan]

How so?

You are so fuckin knowledgeable and are you pretending to not know they open their corporations offshore and pay fk all in taxes(or at min corporate rates on its way out of the country)?

You are infuriating to talk to Arthur.

 

[The Esotericist]

Ah the bottom 25% pay zip taxes and don't get their assets seized without cause while the top pay the most taxes by far.

And while some banks and car companies were kept up with TARP funds a LOT failed (WAMU, Countrywide, Bear Stearns, Wachovia) and took with them the assets of lots of very wealthy people and conversely almost no poor people.

I'm not talking about the top 25%, I'm talking about the top 1%. There is a world of difference. Poor people have no assets, so how could they take with them their assets? You don't know a whole lot. I'm done with you.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

You mean you don't feel so. It's clear you know very little. We don't make tons off of other country's work that is outsourced for our companies you silly man, the ONE PERCENT make all the money!

It may make for an over all richer world, but for the masses, it means a filthy more toxic environment. It means separation from nature and long hours in sweat shops. Sure, it means more loot for a concentrated elite, whoopee. So what can all these poverty stricken consumers that are laden with debt afford? The simple things, food, clothing. . . and now it seems water is being privatized. Lots of these things are being produced with less and less labor and lower costs. So there are more and more poor with barely enough to buy the basics and pay rent.

High end products? What high end products? Do you mean weapons of mass destruction? :bugeye: The U.S. invented the T.V. and used to produce all the world's T.V.'s. Do you want to guess how many T.V.'s we produce now? Apparently no one told you we are now a service economy by design. Everyone works at McDonald's, hair salons, pawn shops, payday loan check cashing vendors, liquor stores, tax preparers, etc.


Actually, the answers are pretty simple. Sound money, government non-intervention. Do away with the Zionist banking cartel, and the Keynesian bullshit economics that we, our parents, our grandparents, and our great-grandparents have been brainwashed with by the 1% as an excuse to grow the government and get involved with the peoples lives. The first priority of government since the introduction of this idea has always been, not to help protect the nation, or regulate interstate commerce, but to grow itself and the elites.

Less jobs ===> wage slavery ====> economic contraction and decay

Obviously my take on things is the correct one. . . . look around for the past, oh, say decade or so?


Really? Really?!? Know you nothing? The elites can protect their assets with a whole host of financial tricks, investing in different financial instruments that are protected against devaluation, commodities that rise while fiat currency devalues, and all other sorts of things. To them, devaluation is good, it is just another way to get even RICHER!

I know a lot of people that live on less that 20k a year. Do you want to know how many of them have a financial planner or financial planner, or have access to markets or investment strategies, or even have anything extra to take advantage of a devaluation of a fiat currency? I am beginning to get the impression that you only see and read what is in your interest to believe in your own little world. . .

you make it by the cheap goods you get to buy . Because of cheap labor the cost of goods are artificially down. Your habitual usage is the real blame . You take advantage of cheap labor by buying cheap goods . If you want to save America and the way of the Union the consumer has to buy good that cost more in labor . Yet it is a 2 edged sword cause you got to make more to pay more . The whole thing is like a dog chasing its tail . Musical chairs is the best way to think of it . If you got enough chairs all is o.k. but take out a chair and there is trouble in paradise . The one with out a chair is not happiest camper on the river of life . Might have to sit on a red Rock and throw the Devils marbles at you

 

[The Esotericist]

you make it by the cheap goods you get to buy . Because of cheap labor the cost of goods are artificially down. Your habitual usage is the real blame . You take advantage of cheap labor by buying cheap goods . If you want to save America and the way of the Union the consumer has to buy good that cost more in labor . Yet it is a 2 edged sword cause you got to make more to pay more . The whole thing is like a dog chasing its tail . Musical chairs is the best way to think of it . If you got enough chairs all is o.k. but take out a chair and there is trouble in paradise . The one with out a chair is not happiest camper on the river of life . Might have to sit on a red Rock and throw the Devils marbles at you

Correct. The elites, the one percent know this. They are the beneficiaries of this policy. Their propaganda efforts on the middle and lower class Americans are to blame them. . . i.e., it's your fault for not buying American.

When all along, they are the ones that have exported the cost of doing business to nations where it is cheaper to manufacture production. Why? Because labor and production costs are cheaper there. The cost of labor is cheaper there b/c the cost of living is cheaper there. Likewise, there is also less government regulation. This is called externalizing the cost of doing business. They shift the cost of making the product onto society, and thus the finished product seems less expensive. But is it really? No. It just happens that the cost of living for the workers is picked up by the state where the products are produced. The cost of health care is government covered, the rents/mortgages where the workers live is government covered, the diet which the people eat is significantly less, the consumer items which the workers need to keep them happy is less costly, the cleanliness of the working and living environment which the citizens of that nation demand to exist needs to be less healthy and safe. . . all of these factors cost money to increase in quality. In the end, these come out of the cost of doing business, and out of the economy. If business does not need to attend to these costs, they can make products for significantly less. That is what is meant by externalizing the costs. It is very hard to externalize the costs of doing business in the Western world. The populace has been educated far too well for far too long for them to get away with that.
Story of Stuff, Full Version

 

[The Esotericist]

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

There is suffering from unemployment, but unemployment isn't caused by that 1%.

That's not entirely true. In previous generations our corporate leaders used their surplus wealth (or "capital") to fund research into more efficient and productive ways of doing things. This inevitably resulted in more technology so there were fewer low-skill back-breaking jobs and more jobs on assembly lines or in offices. This required a better-educated populace and the jobs paid better.

But with today's transportation systems, they use their capital to build factories in Third World countries where people are willing to work for a fraction of the U.S. minimum wage. This keeps Wal-Mart's shelves full of cheap products, but it results in a net flow of jobs offshore. So it actually does have a negative impact on the employment rate.

Perhaps just as significantly, it does not motivate anyone to invent advanced technology.

On the other hand, looking at this as a global citizen rather than a selfish American, one could say that if almost all the people in China, India and Malaysia now have halfway decent housing and cellphones, and if for the first time since anybody's been keeping track less than half the population of Africa lives in poverty, perhaps this little "correction" in the world economy is working.

It may make for an over all richer world, but for the masses, it means a filthy more toxic environment. It means separation from nature and long hours in sweat shops.

You need to study history a little more closely, and perhaps psychology too, since you seem a little unclear on Maslow's Hierarchy. People who are starving, or whose children are dying of untreated illnesses, would much rather work in a sweat shop. In fact they'll happily send their children to work in sweat shops because it might double the family income. Sure this seems horrible from the vantage of our air-conditioned homes with well-stocked refrigerators, but our ancestors a few generations ago would have understood. The same thing happened at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, just read Dickens. Yet now that the developed world has completed its industrialization, everyone is better off than their ancestors.

Life during a Paradigm Shift is indeed hard, but somebody has to start the forward motion.

As for "separation from nature," you've just got to be joking. Those people would pave the entire planet and put a smokestack on every roof if it meant they could have plumbing, electricity and medicines. For us, "nature" is a nice place to go on vacation. For them it's something to fear because in nature they're always one half-step away from death.

Do away with the Zionist banking cartel . . . .

Again, you need to learn a little more about history. In the Middle Ages Europe was under the thumb of the Christian church and the Bibles they used had mistranslated the Hebrew word for "lending money at interest" as "usury." Therefore they considered it a sin to loan money for interest, so there was no way for anyone to invest and no way for anyone to borrow, and the economy was on the verge of stagnation. (This error has been perpetuated in the Koran and modern Muslims are inventing some amazing systems to work around it and still have a robust economy.) Fortunately the Jews knew their own bloody book, so they were willing to lend out their own money. The Christians decided that it was not a sin to borrow money, only to lend it, so everybody was happy.

Who could have foretold that a few centuries later, banking, an "industry" that produces absolutely nothing but merely records the movement of money (which is nothing more than an abstraction for recordkeeping), would be the world's dominant industry and the Jews would find themselves on top of it. The Christians have only themselves to blame.

. . . . and the Keynesian bullshit economics that we, our parents, our grandparents, and our great-grandparents have been brainwashed with by the 1% as an excuse to grow the government and get involved with the peoples lives. The first priority of government since the introduction of this idea has always been, not to help protect the nation, or regulate interstate commerce, but to grow itself and the elites.

Now you're talking like a Libertarian. Perhaps there's hope for you yet. Unfortunately this is the exact wrong time in American history for a Libertarian government and even I will not vote for my party's candidate next year. Libertarianism is long-term thinking, and the problem with long-term thinking is that the short term somehow always comes first.

 

[adoucette]

You mean you don't feel so. It's clear you know very little. We don't make tons off of other country's work that is outsourced for our companies you silly man, the ONE PERCENT make all the money!

We've already been over that.
That 1% is a fallacy.
~6% of US households have assets over 1 million dollars NOT counting their primary residence and fully 25% of households have incomes over $77,000.

And yes we DO lots of outsourced work for other countries, that's what our Oil/Gas companies do for instance and our high tech companies like IBM, Oracle and GE and our management and our financial sector and our Software firms etc etc

Indeed we have a problem with our current tax code, in that profits made overseas aren't taxed if they are kept in foriegn banks. Estimates are that amounts to about 1.5 Trillion dollars.

What the businesses are asking for is straight forward. Don't double tax.
Give them credit for taxes paid overseas and they will bring the money back to the US.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/47702fec-f063-11e0-8303-00144feab49a.html#axzz1a6LU802e

It may make for an over all richer world, but for the masses, it means a filthy more toxic environment.

BS, the entire world is living longer and the biggest improvements are in the 3rd world because of cleaning up the water and the environments. There are fewer percent of people hungry or dying young then ever before. There are of course a few exceptions, like in much of Sub-Saharan Africa because of AIDs, but the global trend is clearly positive, to a less toxic world.

Much has been achieved during the past 20 years. The annual number of
under-five deaths has fallen from around 12.5 million in 1990 to less than
9 million in 2008. Between 1990 and 2006, 1.6 billion people worldwide
gained access to improved water sources. Globally, around 84 per cent of
primary-school-age children are attending school, and gender gaps in primary-
school enrolment are shrinking across the developing world. The
fight against the AIDS pandemic is intensifying and yielding results, with
steady increases in the number of pregnant women with HIV receiving
antiretroviral drugs to prevent mother-to-child transmission of the virus,
and growing numbers of newborns and infants being tested and then also
receiving the full course of medication to protect them from HIV.

http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/SOWC_Spec._Ed._CRC_Main_Report_EN_090409.pdf

It means separation from nature and long hours in sweat shops. Sure, it means more loot for a concentrated elite, whoopee. So what can all these poverty stricken consumers that are laden with debt afford? The simple things, food, clothing. . . and now it seems water is being privatized. Lots of these things are being produced with less and less labor and lower costs. So there are more and more poor with barely enough to buy the basics and pay rent.

Again BS, this whole sheat shop concept is based on a relatively few selected bad apples. Indeed the manufacturers in the West are very image conscious and don't want to be associated with sweat shops and so they have public standards and programs to insure that isn't the case. (again, not that there aren't exceptions, even in companies that are really trying, but the trend is also clearly positive)

http://www.nikebiz.com/responsibility/workers_and_factories.html

High end products? What high end products? Do you mean weapons of mass destruction? :bugeye: The U.S. invented the T.V. and used to produce all the world's T.V.'s. Do you want to guess how many T.V.'s we produce now? Apparently no one told you we are now a service economy by design. Everyone works at McDonald's, hair salons, pawn shops, payday loan check cashing vendors, liquor stores, tax preparers, etc.

Ah, the US has the largest manufacturing economy in the world.

By FAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composition

Arthur

 

[adoucette]

They shift the cost of making the product onto society, and thus the finished product seems less expensive. But is it really? No. It just happens that the cost of living for the workers is picked up by the state where the products are produced. The cost of health care is government covered, the rents/mortgages where the workers live is government covered, the diet which the people eat is significantly less, the consumer items which the workers need to keep them happy is less costly, the cleanliness of the working and living environment which the citizens of that nation demand to exist needs to be less healthy and safe. . . all of these factors cost money to increase in quality.

That logic fails because the government has no money except what it gets from taxing the people, so to say the people don't pay for these things, the government does, makes absolutely no sense.

The fact is the West has been pouring money into these economies and they are indeed improving because of it.

At the same time the West has been able to maintain it's high standard of living.

Get with the program, it's not all about America.

Arthur

 

[Varda]

Here's some insightful reporting

http://erratasec.blogspot.com/2011/10/independent-reporting-of.html?m=1

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

it still growing . Taj took some food to the occupiers in Missoula . There was a black helicopter flying around filming down town that got the nerves of the peoples . Turned out to be someone filming a zombie movie using down town as there location . There was a buzz for about an hr or 2 about it

 

[Gustav]

​

 

[Gustav]

Occupy Oakland




​

USA 26 October 2011. Veteran For Peace member, Scott Olsen, a Marine Corps veteran twice deployed to Iraq, is in hospital now in stable but serious condition with a fractured skull, struck by a police projectile fired into a crowd in downtown Oakland, California in the early morning hours of today. Other people were injured in the assault and many were arrested after Oakland police in riot gear were ordered to evict people encamped in the ongoing "Occupy Oakland" movement. Olsen is also a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War.​

 

[S.A.M.]

I just saw the vid on facebook. Why are the cops aiming gas canisters at the heads of the protestors?

 

[Gustav]

why aim anything anywhere?