Calling all keyboard protestors, ranter and ravers

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Crunchy Cat

The message isn't inaccurate. Corporate take over of the political process through the buy out of political officials means you have a democracy that is stifled and no longer effective in any meaningful way. Large corporations virtually own most of all of your media, it controls and produces most of your food. Monsanto is striving to own all of your seed through seed patenting, threatening farmers who save seeds and you people don't do a damn thing about it. Corporations through their lobbyists are the reason you are without Glass-Steagal which allowed for the economic meltdown, they are also the reason why the war in Iraq was largely privatized (Haliburton and Blackwater). Corporations buy policy through lobbyists and control your campagins through their donations and there is a revolving door between wall st. corporate execs and washington. Wake the fuck up already!!

If you call the american people a 'special interest' group then I suggest you unplug yourself from the t.v that's completely 'blown' your mind. Watch out your post office system is about to be privatized:
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/27/shock_doctrine_at_us_postal_service

From Forbes.com:

*Friday, September 30th, Concerned Citizens Gather for the Kick-off of Occupy Boston*

The conversation that began on Wall Street on September 17 has swept northward to Boston, and inspired a powerful national movement. Joining with nearly 100 actions in cities from Los Angeles to Dallas, Chicago,and Washington D.C., concerned citizens have come to speak out for greater economic equality.

Occupy Boston will gather at Dewey Square in Downtown Boston on Friday,September 30 at 6 p.m., to begin an ongoing protest, discuss the state of the union and develop out of that discussion a list of specific changes to ensure our government actually works for the benefit of all citizens.

Planning this event began with a group of over 200 people from all walks of life who assembled on Boston Common Tuesday evening to discuss taking action. Paul Harris of the Guardian covered the meeting, saying,”[..]the people behind Occupy Boston showed a strong dose of media savvy and organizational skill on [Tuesday] night, as they drew a committed crowd of volunteers to their cause: to occupy a slice of the city.”

Occupy Boston is the beginning of an ongoing discussion about the problems with America’s economic system and how it has damaged government and the fabric of society as a whole. The top 1% owns 50% of the nation’s wealth -and more importantly, how that wealth is used undermines the founding principles of America’s democracy.

Through the use of direct democracy, Occupy Boston is working to define and solve the problems of: an opaque and exclusive government, a Wall Street without conscience, and a state struggling to guarantee basic human rights. Everyone is invited to join this conversation about reforming how business and government operate.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2011/09/30/occupy-wall-street-in-boston-tonight/

In NY today labor unions plan on joining occupy wall st.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

@Crunchy Cat

The message isn't inaccurate. Corporate take over of the political process through the buy out of political officials means you have a democracy that is stifled and no longer effective in any meaningful way. Large corporations virtually own most of all of your media, it controls and produces most of your food. Monsanto is striving to own all of your seed through seed patenting, threatening farmers who save seeds and you people don't do a damn thing about it. Corporations through their lobbyists are the reason you are without Glass-Steagal which allowed for the economic meltdown, they are also the reason why the war in Iraq was largely privatized (Haliburton and Blackwater). Corporations buy policy through lobbyists and control your campagins through their donations and there is a revolving door between wall st. corporate execs and washington. Wake the fuck up already!!

I don't know if it's a reading comprehension issue or you just didn't read what I stated. I will paraphrase in the hope that the concept sinks in:

* Corporations are NOT the only entities running government. Corporations are one of many different types of special interest groups who run government. While Starbucks has purchased some members of congress, so has Israel, so has La Raza, and so on. And yes, I do agree that corporate special interest groups cause a lot of damage (as do all special interest groups in government).

* We need an expulsion of ALL special interest groups from government, not just a particular segment of special interest groups (i.e. corporations).

If you call the american people a 'special interest' group then I suggest you unplug yourself from the t.v that's completely 'blown' your mind. Watch out your post office system is about to be privatized:
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/27/shock_doctrine_at_us_postal_service

*face palm moment*. I can only speculate that your interpretation of what I stated is being filtered through some emotionally driven group-think filter at the moment. I'll paraphrase...

Right now, the unfortunate way our government works is for special interest groups to purchase politicians who work for their interests exlusively (rather than the American people's). While there are a wide variety of ways to apply correction to the problem, the most efficient way is to use the existing system. What I proposed was the creation of a special interest group whose special interest is the wellfare of American citizens. The group would serve three purposes: 1) To put the wellfare of American citizens first, 2) To permanently abolish special interest from government, 3) To publicly embarass and humiliate all other special interest groups with the simple fact that American citizens require a special interest group.

From Forbes.com:

*Friday, September 30th, Concerned Citizens Gather for the Kick-off of Occupy Boston*

The conversation that began on Wall Street on September 17 has swept northward to Boston, and inspired a powerful national movement. Joining with nearly 100 actions in cities from Los Angeles to Dallas, Chicago,and Washington D.C., concerned citizens have come to speak out for greater economic equality.

Occupy Boston will gather at Dewey Square in Downtown Boston on Friday,September 30 at 6 p.m., to begin an ongoing protest, discuss the state of the union and develop out of that discussion a list of specific changes to ensure our government actually works for the benefit of all citizens.

Planning this event began with a group of over 200 people from all walks of life who assembled on Boston Common Tuesday evening to discuss taking action. Paul Harris of the Guardian covered the meeting, saying,”[..]the people behind Occupy Boston showed a strong dose of media savvy and organizational skill on [Tuesday] night, as they drew a committed crowd of volunteers to their cause: to occupy a slice of the city.”

Occupy Boston is the beginning of an ongoing discussion about the problems with America’s economic system and how it has damaged government and the fabric of society as a whole. The top 1% owns 50% of the nation’s wealth -and more importantly, how that wealth is used undermines the founding principles of America’s democracy.

Through the use of direct democracy, Occupy Boston is working to define and solve the problems of: an opaque and exclusive government, a Wall Street without conscience, and a state struggling to guarantee basic human rights. Everyone is invited to join this conversation about reforming how business and government operate.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2011/09/30/occupy-wall-street-in-boston-tonight/

In NY today labor unions plan on joining occupy wall st.

Yes thank you, I read the news too.

 

[genome_invisible]

At the risk of sounding a naysayer, I'm a trifle disappointed by the overall absence of black bloc tactics--as of yet, that is. I'm not talking "violence" here, at least not "violence" against persons (that said, I do not acknowledge the "personhood" of corporations), just plain ol' civil disobedience.

It reminds me a bit of the tax day protests against Bank of America, Verizon, etc. some months back: the websites sponsoring such specifically advised participants against gluing locks, barricading entrances, and other like tactics with proven efficacy, and encouraged people to "have fun," to boot--war generally isn't "fun."

Undoubtedly, black bloc tactics garner negative publicity from the mainstream media, but frankly, who gives a fuck? Is it really a bad thing to have Fox News or CNN portray you in a negative light? I think more pertinent to the cause, such tactics tend to bring out the absolute worst from our beloved authorities--that is, both legal "authorities," i.e., cops, as well as privately employed corporate thugs, i.e. mercenaries. I mean, we've already got cops macing people and stomping on people, and for what? Standing about and voicing their thoughts? Let's see some of their "serving and protecting" when people go so far as to--gasp!!--cross the lines and venture out onto public streets a bit nearer to Wall St.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

At the risk of sounding a naysayer, I'm a trifle disappointed by the overall absence of black bloc tactics--as of yet, that is. I'm not talking "violence" here, at least not "violence" against persons (that said, I do not acknowledge the "personhood" of corporations), just plain ol' civil disobedience.

It reminds me a bit of the tax day protests against Bank of America, Verizon, etc. some months back: the websites sponsoring such specifically advised participants against gluing locks, barricading entrances, and other like tactics with proven efficacy, and encouraged people to "have fun," to boot--war generally isn't "fun."

Undoubtedly, black bloc tactics garner negative publicity from the mainstream media, but frankly, who gives a fuck? Is it really a bad thing to have Fox News or CNN portray you in a negative light? I think more pertinent to the cause, such tactics tend to bring out the absolute worst from our beloved authorities--that is, both legal "authorities," i.e., cops, as well as privately employed corporate thugs, i.e. mercenaries. I mean, we've already got cops macing people and stomping on people, and for what? Standing about and voicing their thoughts? Let's see some of their "serving and protecting" when people go so far as to--gasp!!--cross the lines and venture out onto public streets a bit nearer to Wall St.

Black bloc agreed not to take part in this unless it proved absolutely necessary. Black bloc had a direct role in Seattle for example because the police were engaged in continuous assault on the protestors, the cops have left everyone alone since the pepper spray incident went viral in mainstream news. I know what you mean by non-violent civil disobedience and I agree I think there should be more of that in line with what they are doing in Greece:

A protest sit-in by civil servants at the Greek transport ministry has forced international debt inspectors to reschedule a meeting where they were due to discuss reforms, including new licensing laws for taxis. Yannis Ragoussis, the transport minister, was due to hold a meeting with inspectors from the European Central Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the European Union [collectively known as the troika] on Friday morning, but found the building under occupation by protesting employees.

A similar meeting with Evangelos Venizelos, the Greek finance minister, was moved to a different government building on Thursday after that venue was also occupied.Protesting civil servants continued to guard the entrance to the finance ministry on Friday morning, spraying the words "They shall not pass" across drawn-down metal shutters.The inspectors' meeting at the transport ministry was pushed back to 6:00pm local time (15:00GMT), a ministry official told the Reuters news agency. A lockout at the national statistics office ELSTAT, meanwhile, forced the agency to postpone the publication of two sets of economic indicators on Friday.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/09/2011930135431879415.html


Eventually I think they will get to a place where you see more and more non-violent civil disobedience activity but these are still early days where they are just beginning to garner support from more established organizing forces like unions etc. They have just written their declaration last night and their list of what they would like to see happen. The best way to voice your concerns over civil disobedience is to get to the general assembly meeting either on Wall St. or at a different location and voice your opinion.

By the way Radiohead will be playing in the park at 4pm.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I don't know if it's a reading comprehension issue or you just didn't read what I stated. I will paraphrase in the hope that the concept sinks in:

* Corporations are NOT the only entities running government. Corporations are one of many different types of special interest groups who run government. While Starbucks has purchased some members of congress, so has Israel, so has La Raza, and so on. And yes, I do agree that corporate special interest groups cause a lot of damage (as do all special interest groups in government).

* We need an expulsion of ALL special interest groups from government, not just a particular segment of special interest groups (i.e. corporations).



*face palm moment*. I can only speculate that your interpretation of what I stated is being filtered through some emotionally driven group-think filter at the moment. I'll paraphrase...
.

Well yes sorry I did mis-read your post, I'm quite in a hurry and so have been rushing through these posts. I hope apology is accepted.

Anyway yes I agree that all special interest groups need to stop having a direct line to government officials, they US is being placed in a situation where both parties are bought and payed for and the system works only for the very well heeled. Meanwhile the rest of the public is pit against itself, one group blaming the other (dems vs reps or tea party folk vs liberals) as if the state of the union is the fault of ordinary citizens when in actuality ordinary citizens are being manipulated by an oligarchy that is slowly and methodically taking over the system meant to serve ordinary citizens.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Well yes sorry I did mis-read your post, I'm quite in a hurry and so have been rushing through these posts. I hope apology is accepted.

Anyway yes I agree that all special interest groups need to stop having a direct line to government officials, they US is being placed in a situation where both parties are bought and payed for and the system works only for the very well heeled. Meanwhile the rest of the public is pit against itself, one group blaming the other (dems vs reps or tea party folk vs liberals) as if the state of the union is the fault of ordinary citizens when in actuality ordinary citizens are being manipulated by an oligarchy that is slowly and methodically taking over the system meant to serve ordinary citizens.

Wow Lucy you got a grip . Surprise! Surprise! Go Girl Go . A Go Go Girl . I want you . Can't always get what you want. Yeah Agreed . My take: Business is made the demon . The ordinary Citizen is placed in arms way as if they are the demon business . Then they are milked by both sides cause the demonized they don't have lobbyist, cause they work all the time to pay for the right and lefts lobbyist. Which pay the politician in both camps . Funnel from the working class to the Monstrosity of the system . So consider the slaves that have not been born yet ? How much do they owe the world ? You see were I am going . The kids not born yet owe the world . Tomorrows child so to speak . Is that a screwed up mess or what . I tell you it is like that bible scripture that says in the end it would be better that you were not even born . They got to start out as social slaves the minute there feet hit the ground . Who is the benefactor from our new form of child slavery ? Greedy bastards in they jets and high rolling decadence . Yeah you got it " Al Gore the bore . O.K. O.K. there are plenty others . That was a joke .

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Wow Lucy you got a grip . Surprise! Surprise! Go Girl Go . A Go Go Girl . I want you . Can't always get what you want. Yeah Agreed . My take: Business is made the demon . The ordinary Citizen is placed in arms way as if they are the demon business . Then they are milked by both sides cause the demonized they don't have lobbyist, cause they work all the time to pay for the right and lefts lobbyist. Which pay the politician in both camps . Funnel from the working class to the Monstrosity of the system . So consider the slaves that have not been born yet ? How much do they owe the world ? You see were I am going . The kids not born yet owe the world . Tomorrows child so to speak . Is that a screwed up mess or what . I tell you it is like that bible scripture that says in the end it would be better that you were not even born . They got to start out as social slaves the minute there feet hit the ground . Who is the benefactor from our new form of child slavery ? Greedy bastards in they jets and high rolling decadence . Yeah you got it " Al Gore the bore . O.K. O.K. there are plenty others . That was a joke .

You'e absolutely right the unborn are already in debt, it sounds ridiculous but its true. They will inherit a debt garnered and unpaid by past generations.

For some strange reason Russel Simmons went down to the crowd on wall street made a speech and gave them his support. I expected Noam Chomsky and the support of Anonymous but not a russel simmons. Rosanne Barr also came down to visit on the 21st and offered her support. I bet they won't run that on the nightly news.

There has also been problems on the website, someone is trying to bring it down so right now its on emergency read only.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Well yes sorry I did mis-read your post, I'm quite in a hurry and so have been rushing through these posts. I hope apology is accepted.

Accepted, no worries :3.

Anyway yes I agree that all special interest groups need to stop having a direct line to government officials, they US is being placed in a situation where both parties are bought and payed for and the system works only for the very well heeled.

Correct.

Meanwhile the rest of the public is pit against itself, one group blaming the other (dems vs reps or tea party folk vs liberals) as if the state of the union is the fault of ordinary citizens when in actuality ordinary citizens are being manipulated by an oligarchy that is slowly and methodically taking over the system meant to serve ordinary citizens.

The system isn't slowly being taken over... it's already been completely taken over. As of this very moment, 0% of the government is for the people and 100% of the government is for special interest groups.

 

[chimpkin]

Undoubtedly, black bloc tactics garner negative publicity from the mainstream media, but frankly, who gives a fuck? Is it really a bad thing to have Fox News or CNN portray you in a negative light? I think more pertinent to the cause, such tactics tend to bring out the absolute worst from our beloved authorities--that is, both legal "authorities," i.e., cops, as well as privately employed corporate thugs, i.e. mercenaries. I mean, we've already got cops macing people and stomping on people, and for what? Standing about and voicing their thoughts? Let's see some of their "serving and protecting" when people go so far as to--gasp!!--cross the lines and venture out onto public streets a bit nearer to Wall St.

Kind of torn there...but thinking that the media would use it to portray the protesters as dangerous and facilitate use of violence against them...let's not kid ourselves here, the corporatist media will want a crackdown, I expect, call for it.

Mrs Lucysnow:
Corporate take over of the political process through the buy out of political officials means you have a democracy that is stifled and no longer effective in any meaningful way. Large corporations virtually own most of all of your media, it controls and produces most of your food. Monsanto is striving to own all of your seed through seed patenting, threatening farmers who save seeds and you people don't do a damn thing about it. Corporations through their lobbyists are the reason you are without Glass-Steagal which allowed for the economic meltdown, they are also the reason why the war in Iraq was largely privatized (Haliburton and Blackwater). Corporations buy policy through lobbyists and control your campagins through their donations and there is a revolving door between wall st. corporate execs and washington.

Pretty much, you've been reading the right stuff, yeah.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Its funny this was the topic of discussion tonight among a tech exec, myself a union rep and a French journalist. We were standing in the park with hundreds of people around us and looking up at all of the skyscrapers hovering above us and the question was whether this event even as it gathers steam will have any influence over a system that seems impenetrable from the outside.

I fear you are right but if I internalize that feeling I'm afraid it would make me feel almost too hostile. Silent coup? Well there were signs but we may all have mobilized ourselves a bit too late. What I don't understand is why the rest of the american people still believe that they have access to a democratic system. Why do they believe that the establishment really cares about them when they utilize the old avenues towards addressing power. How can they still remain so deluded?

 

[chimpkin]

The system isn't slowly being taken over... it's already been completely taken over. As of this very moment, 0% of the government is for the people and 100% of the government is for special interest groups.

Well, they have to make it look enough like there's democracy going on...except there isn't.
I think people instinctively know this, and that's why they don't bother to vote?
You don't have to control the vote, you just control who can be voted on, and it's all gravy.

 

[genome_invisible]

Kind of torn there...but thinking that the media would use it to portray the protesters as dangerous and facilitate use of violence against them...let's not kid ourselves here, the corporatist media will want a crackdown, I expect, call for it.

Certainly. But the question is: aren't the mainstream media already portraying them in a negative light--that is, if they are paying them any mind whatsoever in the first place? (I don't have a television, but I've encountered astonishingly little coverage by the mainstream internet media.)

Frankly, I think there is a sizable contingent of the populace that will not be won over no matter what, i.e., tea party types, most "conservatives," and many of the comfortable "middle class" (my ass ). Considering that, I think the real question is: would such (black bloc) tactics only serve to alienate certain less radical supporters and fence sitters, i.e., labor unions (who've strayed so far from what unions ought to be), as well as the sorts Lucy mentioned in post #1: "against the occupation of iraq, afghanistan and Gaza people, I really hate foreclosures folk, and gimme back my job guys"?

I think this could go either way. Some might object to the more radical and disruptive tactics, but may very well experience a change of heart upon seeing the State responding in characteristic over-the-top fashion. We've already witnessed the police macing and beating protestors for the heinous offense of opening their mouths (something which I've personally experienced on more than one occasion), how long before they bring on the tear gas and the heavy artillery?

And then, of course, there's always the "justification" for the State effecting their despicable--and flagrantly un-constitutional--counter-intelligence, surveillance, and infiltration programs of the sort which make COINTELPRO and the FBI's continuous harassment of Phil Ochs, et al, seem like a walk in the park. But again, they've already been doing this anyway (citations provided upon request).

I guess my point is: "they" are already using violence against them. We've not had another Kent State, as of yet, but I know--both from personal experience and from historical review--that it really doesn't take much for the coppers to behave badly.

 

[genome_invisible]

Eventually I think they will get to a place where you see more and more non-violent civil disobedience activity but these are still early days where they are just beginning to garner support from more established organizing forces like unions etc. They have just written their declaration last night and their list of what they would like to see happen. The best way to voice your concerns over civil disobedience is to get to the general assembly meeting either on Wall St. or at a different location and voice your opinion.

Good point. I suppose it would be rather futile to effect such strategies so early in the game, especially as the more "palatable" (to the mainstream public) compats have only just begun to join in, and as our most respected "news" entities--FOX, CNN, USA Today, etc.--haven't even begun to pay attention

By the way Radiohead will be playing in the park at 4pm.

Meh. I'd rather see the Ex, or Crass, or GY!BE, or even Fugazi or Shellac, but I guess Radiohead are ok.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Good point. I suppose it would be rather futile to effect such strategies so early in the game, especially as the more "palatable" (to the mainstream public) compats have only just begun to join in, and as our most respected "news" entities--FOX, CNN, USA Today, etc.--haven't even begun to pay attention



Meh. I'd rather see the Ex, or Crass, or GY!BE, or even Fugazi or Shellac, but I guess Radiohead are ok.

Radiohead was a hoax, they never played. But here is this in its stead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53zLkeIXZvg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNrqc6yvTU

Just a bit of inspiration

 

[Varda]

The candid opinion of a trader on the current euro crisis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqN3amj6AcE

 

[Varda]

Radiohead was a hoax, they never played. But here is this in its stead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53zLkeIXZvg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNrqc6yvTU

Just a bit of inspiration

I heard that the rumors of radiohead brought in around 10k people.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Radiohead was a hoax, they never played. But here is this in its stead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53zLkeIXZvg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhNrqc6yvTU

Just a bit of inspiration

Lucy !! You had to go do that didn't you . My infatuation with 5/3 is not being helped at all with those posts of yours . Your adding to my delusions. It would not be so bad but the guys wife that wrote hair is my aunts traveling friend . They visited Me in about 99 I think was . O.K. blow me away . Don't get hurt Lucy . Me and the boys we doing what we can day by day . I been fighting it a long time . The cronyism is thick heavy all around us. It is everywhere not just wall street . You get em , but please watch your back . Your kind of scaring Me . Watch your back .

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I heard that the rumors of radiohead brought in around 10k people.

No it was a hoax and they didn't play but that's okay, there were more pressing things going on anyway. Half of the group had left with some union folk to protest the police pepper spray and arrest incident. They want Bloomberg and Kelly to do something about the Pepper-spray cop.

Hey thanks for that link. To be honest I am hoping that the European Union will fail and fall apart, I find it undemocratic and offensive.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Lucy !! You had to go do that didn't you . My infatuation with 5/3 is not being helped at all with those posts of yours . Your adding to my delusions. It would not be so bad but the guys wife that wrote hair is my aunts traveling friend . They visited Me in about 99 I think was . O.K. blow me away . Don't get hurt Lucy . Me and the boys we doing what we can day by day . I been fighting it a long time . The cronyism is thick heavy all around us. It is everywhere not just wall street . You get em , but please watch your back . Your kind of scaring Me . Watch your back .

Thanks Me-Ki-Gal we're all trying to watch each other's back. Thing is I have a feeling that Bloomberg may feel forced to remove the people from the park and that may lead to a more violent back-lash. Right now the cops are keeping their cool and are mostly relaxed around the protest, but that could change anytime.

You're right the cronyism is everywhere and that's why the spread of the movement is necessary, I would say that wall street is only a symbol of the problem. There is going to be a large protest in Washington DC on the 6th of October and I believe Chris Hedges is going to be at the lead of that one.

 

[The Esotericist]

Occupy Wall Street Protestors Take Fight to Broadway; 80 arrested [VIDEO]

It’s unclear exactly what the protesters will ask for in exchange for leaving Wall Street.

“More than having any specific demand, per se, I think the purpose of Sept. 17, for many of us who are helping to organize it and people who are coming out, is to begin a conversation, as citizens, as people affected by this financial system in collapse, as to how we’re going to fix it, as to what we’re going to do in order to make it work for us again,” said Justin Wedes, an event organizer.

Sunday: Style “Occupy Wall Street: Organize Already”

We are living in an era of economic terrorism and the results are devastating.

Nearly 50 million Americans are living below the poverty line.

Small business owners can no longer get loans from the mainstream banking industry.

The housing market is still in crisis.

Blue chip companies have had some of the best performance in recent years yet their stock prices are languishing at the hands of black box algorithms and short sellers.

Pensions and mutual funds are not seeing the returns they deserve for investing in the stock market on the basis of good analysis and solid projections.

Politicians are once again sending the fear of death into the boomer generation that social security must go at a time when 401k’s are languishing.

U.S. debt is owned and controlled by other countries.

The gridlock in Congress will likely hold up the American Jobs Act or certainly put its outcome and even bipartisan solutions at risk.

I wonder what they wish to accomplish? Are these protestors or just disgruntled overgrown teenagers? Is there a Martin Luther King for financial freedom out there? Speak up. Lead. Get serious for America and for a prosperous NYC.

They need to get with it and get some direction. I think a lot of why the media isn't covering this story, is, what's the story? Right now it's just a bunch of happy people. But none of them can tell you what or how they want things to change. What will make them stop and go home? What do they want things to happen for things to change? There's really no focal point of leadership here.