Building a semi human powered flying device

Jarno said:
That's definately something else.

Instead of making use of an aircraft, I'm going to attach wings to my arms and implement some bionics on the wings.

Check my website, that's where I roughly explain what my idea is. Soon I'll post further and more detailed information about the concept.

Jarno
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Why?
 
Daedelus said:
I brought them up simply to show that once there were animals of a certain size that did fly.And it's nothing. When you can show that air density was significantly different when these creatures flew then you might have a point. However that point can easily be dealt with by adjusting the size of the machine. As I have told you, and recently verified with friend Clark, a 230 ft^2 wing can carry a 500# load and still gain altitude in thermal lift.When proposing a novel idea I find it useful to draw analogies as a way of explaining it. I have said that if A exists, then B is a reasonable assumption. I said, that we can build jets and we can go to the moon, therefore I see no reason why we cannot build an articulated wing.I'm working on illustrations with an artist now. In the mean time you can read about the ideas and me at Daedelus' Notebook. If you are really interested.
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He was referring to energy density of the power source of your design...not air density 65 million years ago. The proposed system uses electrical power..the only way we have to make electricity portable is with batteries. Even with the most state of the art batteries...they all suffer from extremely poor power to weight ratios. The only example of a powered flapping wing aircraft that actually got of the ground was the one I linked in the first page. It used a 3 cylinder, 24 hp gas engine designed for use in ultra-light aircraft. That's 17.8 kilowatts. I'm not saying that's what this design would require, but it does give us a ballpark idea of the kind of energy that would be consumed.
 
Dywyddyr said:
Obviously the same part as eludes you.
Jet engines != "articulated" wings. Likewise going to the moon != "articulated" wings.
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Did I say anything about "equal to"? I was saying that given our proven abilities in the world of engineering things we want, I believe it is reasonable to pursue this idea that has been around since before recorded history. My reason for thinking this is that advances in other areas can be put together in a machine that will do what we, or many of us, have wanted to do.

I believe I can answer all of the objections so far presented, with solutions. There is nothing however that I can do if you chose not to accept my arguments. But then, I don't really need your approval do I? What I do appreciate is the chance to try to make my case. It only strengthens my commitment.
 
MacGyver1968 said:
He was referring to energy density of the power source of your design...not air density 65 million years ago. The proposed system uses electrical power..t...
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Electrical power is one option, but not the only option. Again, I will point out that animals made of meat, once accomplished what you are saying can't be done.

You like most of the people who think about 'ornithopters' are concerned with flapping wings. You point to air density and say that a wing the size required to carry a man, cannot be flapped strongly enough to lift him. My position is that if we are talking about flapping the way a pigeon or even a humming bird does, you might have a valid point.

That is not the way I am looking at the problem. Condors do not flap that way. Quetzalcoatalus did not and Argentavis did not. Yet they did fly and a few Condors still do. There are plenty of videos out there of Condors in flight so you don't have to take my word for it.
 
Daedelus said:
Electrical power is one option, but not the only option. Again, I will point out that animals made of meat, once accomplished what you are saying can't be done.

You like most of the people who think about 'ornithopters' are concerned with flapping wings. You point to air density and say that a wing the size required to carry a man, cannot be flapped strongly enough to lift him. My position is that if we are talking about flapping the way a pigeon or even a humming bird does, you might have a valid point.

That is not the way I am looking at the problem. Condors do not flap that way. Quetzalcoatalus did not and Argentavis did not. Yet they did fly and a few Condors still do. There are plenty of videos out there of Condors in flight so you don't have to take my word for it.
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There's electric and there's gas powered...there really aren't any other ways to power something like an aircraft. If you can think of another, by all means let me know.

When a condor flies..it only has to lift it's own weight. You are proposing a machine than mimics a condor, but in addition to lifting it's own weight, it also has to lift the weight of a heavy human being.
 
Daedelus said:
I was saying that given our proven abilities in the world of engineering things we want
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In each case the one does not translate into the other. False argument.

I believe it is reasonable to pursue this idea that has been around since before recorded history. My reason for thinking this is that advances in other areas can be put together in a machine that will do what we, or many of us, have wanted to do.
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Wishful thinking...
 
MacGyver1968 said:
There's electric and there's gas powered...there really aren't any other ways to power something like an aircraft. If you can think of another, by all means let me know.
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I can, but it seems you and the other science buffs over in this 'science' forum are so convinced of your own infallible knowledge, I'll let you figure it out for your self.
When a condor flies..it only has to lift it's own weight. You are proposing a machine than mimics a condor, but in addition to lifting it's own weight, it also has to lift the weight of a heavy human being.
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So?
flying-deer-246x200.jpg

How do you suppose this guy got up there then?
True, condors don't have the claw strength to haul Bambi around, but eagles do.

And I repeat myself when I say, I'm not planning to use meat for power. And you keep repeating that same old, cannot be done rhetoric.

If I can imagine it, I can do it.

* With enough money of course.
 
Daedelus said:
I can, but it seems you and the other science buffs over in this 'science' forum are so convinced of your own infallible knowledge, I'll let you figure it out for your self.So?
flying-deer-246x200.jpg

How do you suppose this guy got up there then?
True, condors don't have the claw strength to haul Bambi around, but eagles do.

And I repeat myself when I say, I'm not planning to use meat for power. And you keep repeating that same old, cannot be done rhetoric.

If I can imagine it, I can do it.

* With enough money of course.
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I have never once claimed to be an expert in anything in this thread...and my knowledge is certainly not infallible. Myself and others have just attempted to point out feasibility problems we see in your design.

So what other forms of power could be used to make wings flap?...you didn't say.
 
Daedelus said:
A hang glider is thus far the closest we have to bird like flight.
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Well:

Sailplanes have considerably better L/D - and some are foot launchable.
Paragliders are considerably lighter.
Wingsuits are the smallest device you can "fly" (just a suit.)

So it depends on what kind of bird you want to be I suppose.

Take a modern hang glider and add a few enhancements and you have a better hang glider.
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As I am sure you are aware, just about every enhancement that can be made to hanggliders - has been made. They're constantly in development, of course, but there's not much low hanging fruit left. In other words, while you might get an extra tenth of an L/D point out of them, most of the easy changes have been made.

Take a Condor or Eagle as a prototype, enlarge it, replace it's muscles with appropriate actuators, feathers and bones with CFC, nervous system with haptic technology and the brain with a human pilot and you have the gist of the proposed machine.
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There's a lot of extra stuff in there you don't need to fly. Haptics are generally unnecessary, for example.

If you want to be able to twitch your arms and fingers and alter your course - wingsuits already do that. If you want to be able to fly by just shifting your weight, hanggliders do that. Paragliders do that to some degree as well. If you want to achieve powered flight, there are a variety of engines available that will provide thrust either through propellers or straight reaction (jet engines.) There's even one that will flap its wings for power but it's not too practical (the Snowbird.)

All have tradeoffs, of course. The secret is to make good tradeoffs.
 
billvon said:
Well:
...

All have tradeoffs, of course. The secret is to make good tradeoffs.
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Welcome to the conversation bill, but we've covered all that.

And re: hang gliders, I've been involved with hang gliding since '73, so I know a bit about the "low hanging fruit". My concern is not with eking out another l/d point. Hang gliders already have all the performance needed. What they don't have is the level of control that I personally desire in a flying machine. (In fact, nothing now existing does) Believe me when I tell you, I have lost too many friends over the years because of air they could not deal with. Things birds handle quite easily.

That is my goal. A machine that can do what they can do. So far, no one here has said anything that gives me doubt of the possibility. Certainly not responses like "it can't be done".
 
MacGyver1968 said:
So what other forms of power could be used to make wings flap?...you didn't say.
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No, I didn't say. And since you're still asking about flapping, you are still missing the point. But it's been a long day and I'm quitting early.

But here's a hint. The first creatures to venture into the air were gliders. Whether they leaped from high places and sailed on stretched skin or they ran on long legs and used proto-wings to lighten their load, the first thing they had to master was control.

Flapping for thrust was an after thought.
 
Daedelus said:
No, I didn't say. And since you're still asking about flapping, you are still missing the point. But it's been a long day and I'm quitting early.

But here's a hint. The first creatures to venture into the air were gliders. Whether they leaped from high places and sailed on stretched skin or they ran on long legs and used proto-wings to lighten their load, the first thing they had to master was control.

Flapping for thrust was an after thought.
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We can't read your mind. I was under the impression that you wanted to discuss the design of the flying machine you envision. I guess I was wrong. I assumed it involved flapping wings...because that is the subject of the OP. I just asked you a basic question about one of the most important aspects of powered aircraft design...the powerplant. Jarno let us know that he was envisioning some sort of set of wings that were attached to your arms...but he seems to have abandoned this thread. I really don't know what your are envisioning...except it's like a hang glider, but flies more like a bird.
 
Hey guys,

Sorry, have been away from this discussion a few days but wanted to share an interesting talk I had with Bert Otten last week in Amsterdam.

check it on my blog @ humanbirdwings.net

At the end of this week I will post a few of my sketches on the blog so the whole idea will get a bit more concrete..


Thanks for keeping this topic allive!

grtz Jarno
humanbirdwings.net
 
To power a robotic expanding you could also use compressed air and airmuscles. But a 10 liter air cylinder that has enough atmosphere (about 200) which can deliver enough power to flap wings, weighs about 33lbs. That's way to heavy for my design.

So electric power will be the way to go in my opinion.
 
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