Brave "New" World

[Fraggle Rocker]

Yes, I agree with this, but work is not the meaning of life . . . .

What a strange thing for you, of all people, to say. Your ideal world is one in the Neolithic Era, or perhaps the Bronze Age at the latest, in which there is no modern technology for producing and distributing food, so everyone is responsible for his own little farm in order to feed himself and his family.

Farming was a 100-hour-per-week occupation even in the 19th century, when a few modern mechanical tools became available. That's six 15-hour days with 10 hours on Sunday leaving enough time for church. Work was the meaning of life for these people.

there should be time to go on vacation 2 a year . . . .

The people who live in your pre-technological paradise don't have time to go on vacation. Their work is their life.

what's the point of working all day and night, if that kills you both physically and emotionally, vast majority of people don't even have a luxury to the job they actually like.

You're describing the Pre-Industrial Era. Everyone had to be a farmer, or at least work in the food distribution industry, because the pre-industrial food production technology did not produce a very large surplus. Only a few people, maybe 5% of the population at most (depending on the specific century) could do other kinds of work.

These people were indeed working all day and night, with just enough time to cook, eat, sleep and take care of the children--who went out in the fields to help as soon as they could walk.

This is the world YOU want. It kills you both physically and emotionally.

 

[Gravage]

What a strange thing for you, of all people, to say. Your ideal world is one in the Neolithic Era, or perhaps the Bronze Age at the latest, in which there is no modern technology for producing and distributing food, so everyone is responsible for his own little farm in order to feed himself and his family.

No I'm talking about era 50 years ago. That was an better time, at least what my parents said, the WW2 was finally over (thank goodness) and everybody could continue their lives.

Farming was a 100-hour-per-week occupation even in the 19th century, when a few modern mechanical tools became available. That's six 15-hour days with 10 hours on Sunday leaving enough time for church. Work was the meaning of life for these people.

Wrong, my parents, especially my grandfather and great-grandfather/grand-mother used to work all day they were extremely poor they were making their own bread, they worked all day long, and yet they still had enough time for entertainment, and the most important of all they were happier than today when they have everything so please don't sell me this mumbo-jumbo story.

The people who live in your pre-technological paradise don't have time to go on vacation. Their work is their life.

See above.

You're describing the Pre-Industrial Era. Everyone had to be a farmer, or at least work in the food distribution industry, because the pre-industrial food production technology did not produce a very large surplus. Only a few people, maybe 5% of the population at most (depending on the specific century) could do other kinds of work.

I don't care about world wide industry if I can have my own independent farm where I eat my own products.

These people were indeed working all day and night, with just enough time to cook, eat, sleep and take care of the children--who went out in the fields to help as soon as they could walk.

I explained above.

This is the world YOU want. It kills you both physically and emotionally.

Actually, this what the world many ordinary people would want (hundreds of millions of them), not scientists. I honestly don't believe when scientists say this is because humanity will benefit, we know that this is not the case, it's what you (scientists) want, none is asking normal people what do you think where the research should spent their money?
There are no more ethics or moral when it comes to science. Science is all about money today where money goes science follows it, it's not used for the better of entire mankind.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

No I'm talking about era 50 years ago. That was an better time, at least what my parents said, the WW2 was finally over (thank goodness) and everybody could continue their lives.

I never met your parents, but I lived in that era too. I was born in 1943 and 50 years ago I was in college. I remember that time very clearly. Of course people who lived through WWII were happy; that was a terrible time. I was alive but too young to remember it, but I do remember the Korean War, which was horrible. The Vietnam War started up almost as soon as Korea was over, and it was ten times worse because it seemed like it would never end, and on top of that there was no rational excuse for our soldiers even being there, killing and being killed, destroying Vietnam's farmland with napalm so the hapless citizens would starve to death.

And all throughout that era the morons in Washington and the morons in Moscow kept threatening to start a nuclear war that would have destroyed civilization. No, sonny boy, that was NOT a "better time." We had great music and great drugs and motorcycles and sex parties because it helped us forget the fact that we might all die at any moment.

Wrong, my parents, especially my grandfather and great-grandfather/grand-mother used to work all day they were extremely poor they were making their own bread, they worked all day long, and yet they still had enough time for entertainment, and the most important of all they were happier than today when they have everything so please don't sell me this mumbo-jumbo story.

I had parents and grandparents too, ya know. You're not the only person in the world with a family history. My father's father was a pharmacist so his family was pretty comfortable, but my mother's parents were shit-poor and their life was hell. They left Bohemia (we call it the Czech Republic today because it's easier to spell and pronounce) because they were fed up with the absolutely horrible life of being farmers. But the old man never managed to get a good job. Grandma took in laundry and even the kids had to work.

I don't care about world wide industry if I can have my own independent farm where I eat my own products.

As I've said before, you're immensely lucky to live in a time and place where you have the choice to do that if you want it. Most people don't want that, and that's why most people have comfortable desk jobs that allow them to spend every evening and all day Saturday and Sunday doing something a little more rewarding than pounding dirt to make potatoes grow like the illiterate people did twelve thousand years ago.

You're obviously not a very modern person if you don't appreciate music, which in my opinion is technology's most fabulous accomplishment and without it life would not be worth living, so there's not much you and I agree on to make a basis for discussion.

Actually, this what the world many ordinary people would want (hundreds of millions of them), not scientists.

And how do you know this? How many people have you discussed this with? I'm a rabid pacifist, but I'll take up arms and start shooting anybody who tries to destroy technology and take us back to the Middle Ages. That life sucked. Good riddance!

I honestly don't believe when scientists say this is because humanity will benefit, we know that this is not the case, it's what you (scientists) want, none is asking normal people what do you think where the research should spent their money? There are no more ethics or moral when it comes to science. Science is all about money today where money goes science follows it, it's not used for the better of entire mankind.

Were your parents happy to see you grow up to be a cynic?

 

[Gravage]

I never met your parents, but I lived in that era too. I was born in 1943 and 50 years ago I was in college. I remember that time very clearly. Of course people who lived through WWII were happy; that was a terrible time. I was alive but too young to remember it, but I do remember the Korean War, which was horrible. The Vietnam War started up almost as soon as Korea was over, and it was ten times worse because it seemed like it would never end, and on top of that there was no rational excuse for our soldiers even being there, killing and being killed, destroying Vietnam's farmland with napalm so the hapless citizens would starve to death.

I do know that, yes we've been through hell, I'm fully aware of that, and I don't forget this, but people at that time were much more closer and more human than they are today, today too individual.

And all throughout that era the morons in Washington and the morons in Moscow kept threatening to start a nuclear war that would have destroyed civilization. No, sonny boy, that was NOT a "better time." We had great music and great drugs and motorcycles and sex parties because it helped us forget the fact that we might all die at any moment.

It was a better time when it comes to find friends and get into relationships, today it seems to me, everything falls apart, that was my point here.

I had parents and grandparents too, ya know. You're not the only person in the world with a family history. My father's father was a pharmacist so his family was pretty comfortable, but my mother's parents were shit-poor and their life was hell. They left Bohemia (we call it the Czech Republic today because it's easier to spell and pronounce) because they were fed up with the absolutely horrible life of being farmers. But the old man never managed to get a good job. Grandma took in laundry and even the kids had to work.

And my parents and grand-parents were independent, yes they worked entire day on the farm every day just to survive and than they sell food just enough to survive, but they had friends and were much more communicative than people are today. Not to mention people today get more fired from their jobs very often in this crisis.

As I've said before, you're immensely lucky to live in a time and place where you have the choice to do that if you want it. Most people don't want that, and that's why most people have comfortable desk jobs that allow them to spend every evening and all day Saturday and Sunday doing something a little more rewarding than pounding dirt to make potatoes grow like the illiterate people did twelve thousand years ago.

I'll rather have barely anything and have friends and a family where I have full support, than be a loner in this "better" world. Today family and being healthy is everything, it is actually a luxury (if you're lucky but people get divorce all the time.

You're obviously not a very modern person if you don't appreciate music, which in my opinion is technology's most fabulous accomplishment and without it life would not be worth living, so there's not much you and I agree on to make a basis for discussion.

I admit that I'm not very modern, but I never really liked the music that much, and honestly I never had time to listen.

And how do you know this? How many people have you discussed this with? I'm a rabid pacifist, but I'll take up arms and start shooting anybody who tries to destroy technology and take us back to the Middle Ages. That life sucked. Good riddance!

Ask any average person who is just trying to survive.
We must change the now present scientific/technological/political/economical and etc. paradigms of never-ending growth, cut the population to 1/3 (at least) so it can be sustainable and use less resources, what we take from nature, we must return to the nature.
I'm not against technology and science, but I'm against science, technology, politics and economics which talk about never-ending scientific, high-tech, political, economical, over-consuming and over-productive growth because it's not realistic and it's not sustainable.
Scientific and technological growth, yes, but with less population, with less production, and with less consumption, otherwise science and technology will not/cannot help us with never-ending growth in over-productivity and over-consumption with over-population.
Health and medicine should not/would not be touched by this, science should/would always improve in these categories, however there are upper limits in these categories as well.
Our entire civilization from scientists, politicians, economists and etc, to ordinary people, we all wrongly hyper-religiously think that science and technology can save us from everything/everyone, from never-ending growth, over-production, over-consumption, every man-made/natural disaster and etc.
So, when we say scientific and technological developments/improvements are infinite is wrong.
You simply cannot have infinite scientific and technological developments/improvements/innovations/creativities sustain and and increase even more over-production and over-consumption on the infinite scale, which also means you cannot have infinite political, economical and etc. any kind of growth/growths that is/are based on the limited resources and on the limited ecosystems you use and limited planet that gives us sustainable life.
This subject is something where modern philosophers also make mistakes and talk about infinite scientific/technological/political/economical and etc. improvements.

Were your parents happy to see you grow up to be a cynic?

I'm not a cynic, what I'm saying is that you cannot have a system where the same companies who are responsible for all this pollution and all the hell that we have today (we should also include overpopulation), are so hyper-religiously convinced that with newer, more sophisticated, more complex, more advanced sciences and technologies and their never-ending developments/growths/expansions they can keep up forever produce and consume more and more and that science and technology will solve all the problems problems with the limitations of environments, ecosystems, as well that both science and technology will solve all the problems regarding all the present and the future limitations of this planet and etc.
We all know, realistically speaking/looking at it, that these scientific/technological/political/economical paradigms just do not work, we all know and are fully aware that these scientific/technological/political/economical paradigms are simply not realistic, these scientific/technological/political/economical paradigms are simply not sustainable.
The answer is slowdown and use less, population should be cut on 1/3, but none is going to do this.
We will yet see if the population will decrease by the end of this century as some scientists claim, time will tell if these scientists are wrong or right.
Cheers.