Blame The Russians?

[joepistole]

Ergo . . . . . You just 'justified' my assertions for me . . . . .THANKS!!

LOL....be honest Karenmansker. As I have pointed out you are great at casting out unsubstantiated assertions. You are horrible at substantiating them, and not surprisingly, your obfuscating continues. You can't produce any evidence to support your assertions. That's the bottom line here. Please feel free to prove me wrong at any time. But we both know you cannot. Hence all the obfuscation and ad hominem.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

But you have chosen to ignore it. Now can you disprove anything the intelligence agencies have asserted?

No.
I asked earlier where should I look and no one answered.
A google presented me with a page with headings indicating problems that is why I asked.

. These sources are very credible. Now if you chose to ignore them, fine. But you shouldn't pretend they don't exist and haven't stated what they have clearly stated and explained.

Well I have not seem them that was what I was asking for.
I do not hold a position I merely wanted to learn more.
My comment was upon the assertion that the burden of proof shifts, I say it does not shift I do not see my statement as unreasonable given that principle is followed in your courts.

You haven't been able to discredit the American intelligence agencies or the private companies who have testified that Russia was responsible for the hacks and was trying to influence the American election.

Rather than try to sort thru the material I found on my google I asked here what evidence should I look for, no reply, and yet I took no position other than remind the forum of the operation of the burden of proof.
You have me wrong, I am on the outside looking in and trying to work out what is going on.
I still have no idea what the Russians specifically are accused of..I proceed from a position of ignorance.
I was surprised that the comment was made suggesting the burden of proof shifts but I have taken no position and say I am still unaware of what the Russians have done or what evidence is against them.
It is only now that I see you provided a link and I take this opportunity to thank you.
I will read it.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

A couple of things, Trump is a liar.

This is as far as I got before I went to bed.
I thought your post needed and edit as the quotes seemed out of wack.
I guess you have edited it so I will star again.
Thank you for your replies.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

But yet you chose to summarily and without merit discredit them.

No we have a misunderstanding.
I am not trying to discredit anything I simply am trying to learn the facts.
All good now and thank you for your replies I am getting up to speed now.
The main problem is I have not followed this news, any news really over Xmas and although important to you what happens in USA is not front of mind for me.
Thanks again.
Alex

 

[joepistole]

After disposing the usual joepistole bs, there remains a point about about the "as many as 81 times between 1946 and 2000" data

LOL...and when have you done that even once comrade? I think you have been hitting the vodka again.

As previously pointed out to you comrade those instances occurred during the previously referenced Cold War and your beloved Mother Russia did it too. In fact you beloved Mother Russia invaded countries seeking democracy in order to preserve Soviet (i.e. Russian influence).

The cold war ended 1991 with the collapse of the USSR. From 1991-2000 Russia was ruled by a very good friend of the US, Yeltsin.

Well, that's a little dishonest don't you think comrade? The article you cited went back to 1946. As for Yeltsin being a good friend of the US, what's that suppose to mean? The US didn't install Yeltsin. It did help help him because he was the duly elected leader of Mother Russia. The US helped other former clients of the Soviet state too. If you recall comrade those were some pretty tough times for your beloved Mother Russia. Russians didn't have food, clothing, or anything else for that matter.

The US also supported your beloved Mother Putina as well, right up until he decided he wanted to invade, occupy and annex neighboring states. That's when the United States and other Western powers withdrew their support of Mother Putina. That's the part you left out. Gee, I wonder why.

But http://isq.oxfordjournals.org/content/isq/early/2016/02/13/isq.sqv016.full.pdf gives also some information about cold war vs. post cold war, namely 82% cold war vs. 18% post cold war. Which suggests that there was not even a decrease in frequency. Because from 1946 - 2000 we have 46 cold war years but 8 post cold war years, thus 85% of the period were cold war years. Note also that all the (clearly violating international law) American-paid "color revolutions" are not included at all, moreover they became much more popular after 2000.

Do you even read your references? I don't think you do, because this isn't the first time you have referenced materials which don't support your assertions. And as if that were not enough, you have referenced the same things over and over again using different links making it look like you have referenced more materials than you actually have. None of that is honest comrade.

What did the US do to influence the Kosovo elections in 2000? Please do be specific.

 

[joepistole]

Joe: Here are are some links to disavow many of your previous posts . . . . do you need additional references from me, or are you capable of searching same on Google?:

Google: US interfere Israeli election
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/12/obama-admin-sent-taxpayer-money-oust-netanyahu/
http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-funds-aided-2015-campaign-to-oust-netanyahu-senate-probe-finds/
http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/state-dept-350k-group-built-campaign-structure-used-against-election-israels
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/obamas-shocking-interference-in-the-israeli-elections/
Google: US interfere foreign election:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/24916-us-has-interfered-in-foreign-elections-multiple-times
http://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/506625913/database-tracks-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/13/the-long-history-of-the-u-s-interfering-with-elections-elsewhere/?utm_term=.8b4fbeec4ed1

It's apparent you too don't read your references. You cherry pick those items which you believe confirm your biases and ignore the rest. I suggest you read your references. They very clearly say the US did nothing wrong. The US didn't actively try to influence any Israeli election. Congress approved the funds and were spent they way they were suppose to be spent. The US was required to fund certain groups by Congress and it did. If one of those groups subsequently supported a political candidate, there is nothing wrong with that.

This is what that group does:

"For decades, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has defined and distorted the daily lives of millions of people. We have seen progress, we have seen setbacks, but now all we see is stagnation. For Palestinians and Israelis, the status quo is untenable.

Since 2002, the OneVoice Movement has been supporting the work of brave Israelis and Palestinians striving for a better future. Ultimately, they must be the ones to agree on the terms for a negotiated resolution, but this is a conflict with global implications and international factors. Therefore, those of us living outside of the region also have a part to play.

Internationally, OneVoice works to raise resources and visibility for the critical work of our regional partners. We also run our own highly effective programming aimed at reducing hate, polarization and racism, and providing high school and college students with the education and tools to contribute meaningfully to a just and lasting peace for Israel and Palestine within their own communities.

Today, the OneVoice Movement is truly global, active in the United States and Europe, and supporting the work of our partners in Israel and Palestine. Learn more about what we do below:

For decades, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has defined and distorted the daily lives of millions of people. We have seen progress, we have seen setbacks, but now all we see is stagnation. For Palestinians and Israelis, the status quo is untenable.

Since 2002, the OneVoice Movement has been supporting the work of brave Israelis and Palestinians striving for a better future. Ultimately, they must be the ones to agree on the terms for a negotiated resolution, but this is a conflict with global implications and international factors. Therefore, those of us living outside of the region also have a part to play.

Internationally, OneVoice works to raise resources and visibility for the critical work of our regional partners. We also run our own highly effective programming aimed at reducing hate, polarization and racism, and providing high school and college students with the education and tools to contribute meaningfully to a just and lasting peace for Israel and Palestine within their own communities.

Today, the OneVoice Movement is truly global, active in the United States and Europe, and supporting the work of our partners in Israel and Palestine.

It's no secret the US has tried to support peace in the region for many decades. So to equate Russia's illegal hacking of American servers with the lawful donating money to an Israeli-Palestinian organization is just flat out wrong. The US government supports a number of charitable organizations around the globe, and that's a good thing.

 

[joepistole]

After 1991 which country were invaded ? As it was mentioned since USSR is gone what do ve need NATO for . Who invaded Iraq , Eritrea, Somalia, Granada. Let Europa handle their own problems ,

Yeah comrade let Europe handle her own problems; except the last time we did that 85 million people died. That's why comrade. That's why we need NATO. NATO has been engaged several times since the fall of the Soviet Union. And with the resurgence of Russian aggression, NATO is needed now more than ever.

Yeah, who invaded Iraq, Eritrea, Somalia, and Granada? I guess you don't understand the difference between UN sanctioned humanitarian missions and Russian aggression. Trust me comrade, there is a difference. One is legal, one is not. One is done for humanitarian reasons; the other isn't.

 

[joepistole]

No we have a misunderstanding.
I am not trying to discredit anything I simply am trying to learn the facts.
All good now and thank you for your replies I am getting up to speed now.
The main problem is I have not followed this news, any news really over Xmas and although important to you what happens in USA is not front of mind for me.
Thanks again.
Alex

You are a good man Alex.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

You are a good man Alex.

Thank you for your kindness.
It may not be clear but I appreciate the honor of reading your views and the views of other members.
Today is special for me for I have now been a member of this wonderful forum for one year.
I live a solitary life and even if I socialize do not get to associate with intelligent and interesting people.
I somehow feel comfortable here and enjoy the high level, generally, of conversation.
Alex

 

[Schmelzer]

LOL...and when have you done that even once comrade?

I do it all the time. Maybe an English problem? I have used http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/entsorgen.html to translate the German "entsorgen". It means simply throw away something nasty, which one would not like to touch. Here in the forum it means that I simply delete it without commenting it. This is the best way to handle most of your waste.

As for Yeltsin being a good friend of the US, what's that suppose to mean?

It means that even if Yeltsin has influenced some elections (I doubt, why would he, he had enough problems at home), this was not against American interest, but probably even supported by America. So, I do not have to speculate much what part of the 18% after the cold war was American and which part Russian.

The US didn't install Yeltsin.

But they supported him heavily in his election campaigns.

If you recall comrade those were some pretty tough times for your beloved Mother Russia. Russians didn't have food, clothing, or anything else for that matter.

Oh, Russia did have a lot of nice things, but the oligarchs like the hero of the West Chodorkowski have stolen almost everything they could get, so this was quite a bad time for the Russian people. Not for the Yeltsin family, of course, they became rich too.

What did the US do to influence the Kosovo elections in 2000? Please do be specific.

What did you do last night with that small girl? Please do be specific.

I have not made any claims at all about whatever happened in some elections in Kosovo 2000, so that your request is as nonsensical as my reply above.

 

[karenmansker]

Joe: I refer you (again) to my post #71. If you call providing specific references that you requested (and which I provided) cherry picking, then so be it.

Just remember: "You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose - but you can't pick your friend's nose!" HAHA! Lighten up, dude! . . . .

 

[joepistole]

Joe: I refer you (again) to my post #71. If you call providing specific references that you requested (and which I provided) cherry picking, then so be it.

Yeah, more obfuscation on your part. I again challenge you to support your assertion.

Just remember: "You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose - but you can't pick your friend's nose!" HAHA! Lighten up, dude! . . . .

And you think that makes sense...? I guess that explains much. Are you telling me you pick your friends nose as well as your own? Well, to each his own. But I pick no ones nose including my own.

 

[karenmansker]

Yeah, more obfuscation on your part. I again challenge you to support your assertion.



And you think that makes sense...? I guess that explains much. Are you telling me you pick your friends nose as well as your own? Well, to each his own. But I pick no ones nose including my own.

Pls review my referential list - read some of them! - they are the specifics that you requested.

Re: Nose picking: Joe: You evidently have issues with philosophical humor - and, NO, I do not pick my friends' noses, but I suspect that you may if the opportunities (i.e., friends) arise! . . . . again . . . LIGHTEN-UP, DUDE!!

 

[joepistole]

Pls review my referential list - read some of them! - they are the specifics that you requested.

Re: Nose picking: Joe: You evidently have issues with philosophical humor - and, NO, I do not pick my friends' noses, but I suspect that you may if the opportunities (i.e., friends) arise! . . . . again . . . LIGHTEN-UP, DUDE!!

Instead of picking your nose and your friends noses, I suggest you go back and read my previous posts.

 

[iceaura]

The basis of criminal prosecution is one is inoccent until proven guilty.

Good thing people just using their common sense and enormous preponderance of evidence to evaluate obvious situations on a science forum aren't engaging in criminal prosecution, then.

'Cause we'd never get anywhere, with a criterion like that.

 

[iceaura]

Of course, but why should the victims of similar US attacks against their own elections care about this?

Clearly only someone who cared about decent US government would care about its corruption and undermining. So?

Once the US, the model of good government for the whole world, are doing this, this should be accepted as fine, and everybody else is free to do the same, not?

You can't make those jokes, because they can't be reliably distinguished from your sincere posting.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Cause we'd never get anywhere, with a criterion like that.

Even though you seem to shoot the messenger the other aspect of proof on criminal proceedings is that proof offered must place the matter beyond reasonable doubt (and that is the subject of discussion) in a civil matter the proof is such that a reasonable man would accept.
So you are right you may be a while getting anything done in a court room.
I am still getting up to speed on the hacking I presume to understand by this time tomorrow.
Alex

 

[Schmelzer]

Clearly only someone who cared about decent US government would care about its corruption and undermining. So?

The victims of US interference in foreign elections are, of course, usually not US citizens, thus, US-internal corruption is not a problem for them. They have to care about their own corrupt politicians. And especially care about those paid by the US.

You can't make those jokes, because they can't be reliably distinguished from your sincere posting.

As if I would have to care if some idiots understand my jokes.

 

[joepistole]

The victims of US interference in foreign elections are, of course, usually not US citizens, thus, US-internal corruption is not a problem for them. They have to care about their own corrupt politicians. And especially care about those paid by the US.

Ignoring the fact you have no evidence to support your assertions about the US, you are still making the 2 wrongs make a right argument. As I have said before, that argument never worked with my mother. I guess Russian mothers are different.

 

[timojin]

Ignoring the fact you have no evidence to support your assertions about the US, you are still making the 2 wrongs make a right argument. As I have said before, that argument never worked with my mother. I guess Russian mothers are different.

Are you Mccarthy's son by any chance . He blamed everything on the USSR since he is not a live any more and there is no USSR. but you are a new breed you must be his son.