black hole's information

Ishika

Ishika

Registered Member
after the black hole emits radiation, the information in it is lost, how does it breaks the law of quantum theory? and what type of information it is that's inside them?
 
If I understand the problem correctly, it goes something like this...

Suppose that an apple falls into a black hole. An apple contains information about it's "appleness". It has a certain structure. It is made of certain elements. Etc.

Once the apple is inside the black hole, all that information is "lost" to the outside universe. It can't be extracted again from the hole.

But wait! What about Hawking Radiation? Hawking predicted that, given a long enough time, black holes must gradually "evaporate", converting their mass into emitted particles (light, electrons, other particles).

The problem is that the emitted radiation doesn't seem to contain all of the information from the apple any more. So, it looks like information has been lost from the universe, rather than conserved.

Apparently, this is considered problematic, for reasons I don't know.

The good news is that Hawking claimed to have solved the problem, finding that information is preserved after all.

I'm not aware of whether the relevant research community accepts Hawking's proof that information is preserved. Provisionally, I'm going to assume they do, or else I probably would have heard more about the "unsolved" problem.

Does this help?
 
James R said:
The problem is that the emitted radiation doesn't seem to contain all of the information from the apple any more. So, it looks like information has been lost from the universe, rather than conserved.

Apparently, this is considered problematic, for reasons I don't know.
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Wiki has a primer on this:
"... this violates a core precept of both classical and quantum physics—that, in principle, the state of a system at one point in time should determine its value at any other time. Specifically, in quantum mechanics the state of the system is encoded by its wave function. The evolution of the wave function is determined by a unitary operator, and unitarity implies that the wave function at any instant of time can be used to determine the wave function either in the past or the future."

I think the long and the short of it is that:

1. In principle - a "sufficiently accurate" list of the properties of a system can be used to recreate the evolution of the system either forward in time or backward in time. (I guess that's a deterministic universe).

2. But the radiation that comes out of a black hole is bereft of the properties required to roll it backward in an attempt to recreate the previous system.
 
Question:
In a 3 dimensional space does a black hole not become the center of a toroid?
 
When after inflation the original plasma state began to cool and form matter, is it possible that a central gravitational black hole did exist prior to inflation, or began to form at the center of the plasma and a universal toroid began to form, creating a naturally recycling in time?

Does a continuous parabola eventually form a toroid?

Ellipses, Orbits and Galleria Vittorio Emanuele​

Let’s start with ellipses. It took millenia to figure it out, but the motions of the cosmos aren’t made of perfect circles as it was long thought. Rather, as asserted by Johannes Kepler’s laws, the trajectories of objects of the universe are ruled by the geometry of ellipses!
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But why is that?
This was a troubling mysteries for a century! Until came the brilliant Isaac Newton.
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What did Newton do?
Newton proved that a few basic laws of mechanics could explain the elliptical motions of planets! And since these laws also matched Galileo’s laws of motions (including the parabolic curve of free falling objects we’ll get to later), Newton postulated that they were universal laws of Nature! 18 months later, he published the most important book of the History of physics, the Principia Mathematica. This book was to transform our whole understanding of the Universe, since, for the first time in History, there was a claim of a universal law! Something that was true at all levels, everywhere and always. This is illustrated in this extract from another of NOVA’s awesome science documentaries.
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more...... http://www.science4all.org/article/ellipses-parabolas-hyperbolas/#
 
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Write4U said:
What then is the shape of a 3D black hole?
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It's spherical or, more commonly for rotating black holes, ellipsoidal.

Why "3D black hole"? Are their black holes with other numbers of dimensions?
Write4U said:
Are you saying there is a bottom to a BH?
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There's a centre. If the event horizon is spherical, then it follows that there's a geometrical centre to the sphere.

I don't know what you mean by "bottom", in this context.
Write4U said:
OK, I can see that now. How about an oval?
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What are you talking about? Try rephasing your question.

What do you have in mind when you suggest that a two-dimensional figure like a parabola might "form" a three-dimensional figure of some kind? How would that work, exactly?
Write4U said:
Can you be a little more transparent?

Tell me what is wrong with this model'
View attachment 5928
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Is that a model? What's it a model of?

There's nothing wrong with it as a random picture you cut and pasted from somewhere. It's very pretty.
Write4U said:
as compared with this model

View attachment 5929
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Is that a model? Of what?
 
Write4U said:
What then is the shape of a 3D black hole? .
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All physical things are 3D. The "3D" part of your question is redundant.

The shape of a nonrotating black hole's event horizon is spherical. Why do you think it would be anything else?
 
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Write4U said:
When after inflation the original plasma state began to cool and form matter, is it possible that a central gravitational black hole did exist prior to inflation, or began to form at the center of the plasma and a universal toroid began to form, creating a naturally recycling in time?

Does a continuous parabola eventually form a toroid?

Ellipses, Orbits and Galleria Vittorio Emanuele​







more...... http://www.science4all.org/article/ellipses-parabolas-hyperbolas/#
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You have cut and pasted an article about conic sections. This is pure mathematics, which I remember rather enjoying in the 6th form at school. It has nothing to do with black holes, nor with cosmic inflation.

So it’s just yet another example of you posting random stuff you have found on the internet.

A toroid, which now seems, with equal lack of relevance, to have taken your fancy, is not a conic section. Apart from anything else it is a 3D shape, whereas conic sections are 2D, formed as they are by where a 2D plane cuts a 3D cone.
 
Yes, I should have left it as originally posted. Sorry for the confusion.
exchemist said:
A toroid, which now seems, with equal lack of relevance, to have taken your fancy, is not a conic section. Apart from anything else it is a 3D shape,
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Right, that answer is what I was after. So, can we say that a black hole is the center of a toroid gravitational object?
 
Write4U said:
Yes, I should have left it as originally posted. Sorry for the confusion.


Right, that answer is what I was after. So, can we say that a black hole is the center of a toroid gravitational object?
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No! Gravitational fields do not have a toroidal shape. They tend to be spherically symmetric. Forget toroids.
 
Pinball1970 said:
He should forget BHs period. A weird object object in space that cannot be observed directly. Stuff can go in but not out.
Anything more involved that will lead to Tegmark.
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Yeah, he’s circling around it and sooner or later: FUNGG……Tegmark! Potentials and values! Enfolding and unfolding! :rolleyes:
 
Write4U said:
So, can we say that a black hole is the center of a toroid gravitational object?
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Didn't you read post #10, where I told you that black holes are typically ellipsoids?

Add this to your list of pet obsessions: doughnut shaped black holes, doughnut universes, doughnut shaped Bohmian mathematics. Next it will be doughnut shaped microtubules. (I know you want to, but don't even start.)
 
James R said:
Didn't you read post #10, where I told you that black holes are typically ellipsoids?

Add this to your list of pet obsessions: doughnut shaped black holes, doughnut universes, doughnut shaped Bohmian mathematics. Next it will be doughnut shaped microtubules. (I know you want to, but don't even start.)
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Hey you're right! I've just checked posts of Write4U including the word "toroid" and it crops up in 39 posts, across no fewer than 19 different threads. Not quite in the microtubules league (yet) but clearly another idée fixe.

Maybe we should get DaveC426913 to update his Write4U's Wobbly Wheel of Wordsalad Woo...... :biggrin:
 
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exchemist said:
Hey you're right! I've just checked posts of @Write4U including the word "toroid" and it crops up in 39 posts, across no fewer than 19 different threads. Not quite in the microtubules league (yet) but clearly another idée fixe.
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This is not a surprise and something write4U needs to acknowledge.
 
Pinball1970 said:
This is not a surprise and something write4U needs to acknowledge.
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I don't deny it. The question is if the reference was related to the discussion.
I don't just throw this stuff in without trying to make a point about the subject under discussion.

If that seems off-topic, I am always happy to discuss what I believe makes it relevant.

In this thread

ESA’s high-energy observatories spot doughnut-shaped cloud with a black-hole filling​

Using ESA’s Integral and XMM-Newton observatories, an international team of astronomers has found more evidence that massive black holes are surrounded by a doughnut-shaped gas cloud, called a torus. Depending on our line of sight, the torus can block the view of the black hole in the centre. The team looked `edge on’ into this doughnut to see features never before revealed in such a clarity.
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more.....
Astronomers often study black holes that are aligned face-on, thus avoiding the enshrouding torus. However, Beckmann's group took the path less trodden and studied the central black hole by peering through the torus. With XMM-Newton and Integral, they could detect some of the X-rays and gamma rays, emitted by the accretion disc, which partially penetrate the torus. "By peering right into the torus, we see the black hole phenomenon in a whole new light, or lack of light, as the case may be here," Beckmann said.
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more....
The team could infer the doughnut’s structure and its distance from the black hole by virtue of light that was either reflected or completely absorbed. The torus itself appears to be several hundred light years from the black hole, although the observation could not gauge its diameter, from inside to outside.
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more....
www.esa.int

ESA’s high-energy observatories spot doughnut-shaped cloud with a black-hole filling

Using ESA’s Integral and XMM-Newton observatories, an international team of astronomers has found more evidence that massive black holes are surrounded by a doughnut-shaped gas cloud, called a torus. Depending on our line of sight, the torus can block the view of the black hole in the centre...
www.esa.int

What about this is irrelevant to the OP?
 
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