Are the laws of physics based on magic?

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Mazulu said:
So it follows that some parts of reality are not material.
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Agreed. Properties, ideas, numbers, geometric shapes, space, time, minds, consciousness, values, holes, wavefunctions, the quantum vacuum, singularities, attractors--many examples of nonmaterial realities.
 
Reality is ...the world or state of things as they really exist. Not as we hope they exist. Not as we want them to exist. Not as we speculate them to exist. But ...as they really exist.

The spirit world isn't reality. I replied to you in the other thread about this as well. At the end of the day, a spiritual person has to accept that what he/she believes, can't be proven objectively to others.

The scientist in you needs to make peace with the spiritual side of yourself, so you can find happiness in your own reality. ;)
 
Mazulu said:
Well, your sarcasm is probably correct. Scientists make computer models about the big bang; they use computers (machines) made from the physical world. There was a time when the physical world was not here. That was before the big bang. Since there were no computers then, and in fact there was NOTHING! So, were did the singularity/big bang come from?

Physicists say (we don't know yet), but it really does become a faith issue. When it comes to matters beyond the physical universe, do you put your trust in science? Or do you put your trust in God? Or some third option...
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False argument.

The logical argument is that science is a "tool" for discovering how the Universe works, and thereby discover the fundamental precursors to physical energy. This is an active process and IMO, science will find the answer to this fundamental pre-force, eventually. Until then Science withholds "affirmation".

I am in the middle of the road and presume to call this precursor, Potential, which assigns the scientific and philosophical generalities, "a latent excellence which precedes physical reality". It encompasses all there was, is, and will be, but without self awareness, only the ability to produce physical events in accordance with certain mathematical restrictions (universal laws inherent in the greater Potential).
My concept is presumptious because I am not a physicist, but even so, I can defend this concept on scientific grounds.

OTOH, the presumption of a God (complete with pictures of "likeness to humans") as the causal force for expression in reality, but without any evidence that supports any of the attributes "humans" have assigned this precursor, except a mysterious magical power and a special interest in humans. I find this bordering on hubris and by biblical observation, "vanity is a sin", thus not even defensible on biblical grounds.
 
wegs said:
Reality is ...the world or state of things as they really exist. Not as we hope they exist. Not as we want them to exist. Not as we speculate them to exist. But ...as they really exist.

The spirit world isn't reality. I replied to you in the other thread about this as well. At the end of the day, a spiritual person has to accept that what he/she believes, can't be proven objectively to others.

The scientist in you needs to make peace with the spiritual side of yourself, so you can find happiness in your own reality. ;)
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What is there to make peace with? Physics has so many loose ends that atheism is just a belief. There are plenty of non-material facets to reality that it's a wash. You can be an atheist if you wish. You can be a Christian if you wish. You can be something else if you wish. There are so many blind spots and missing pieces for physics to be able to ensure that atheism is correct. Sorry about that.
 
Write4U said:
False argument.

The logical argument is that science is a "tool" for discovering how the Universe works, and thereby discover the fundamental precursors to physical energy. This is an active process and IMO, science will find the answer to this fundamental pre-force, eventually. Until then Science withholds "affirmation".

I am in the middle of the road and presume to call this precursor, Potential, which assigns the scientific and philosophical generalities, "a latent excellence which precedes physical reality". It encompasses all there was, is, and will be, but without self awareness, only the ability to produce physical events in accordance with certain mathematical restrictions (universal laws inherent in the greater Potential).
My concept is presumptious because I am not a physicist, but even so, I can defend this concept on scientific grounds.

OTOH, the presumption of a God (complete with pictures of "likeness to humans") as the causal force for expression in reality, but without any evidence that supports any of the attributes "humans" have assigned this precursor, except a mysterious magical power and a special interest in humans. I find this bordering on hubris and by biblical observation, "vanity is a sin", thus not even defensible on biblical grounds.
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My argument is valid. Physicists use mathematics to understand how nature behaves. But for all we know, it is an automation by a God that is beyond our ability to understand. The automation of creation is made possible by some invisible/undetectable "something", that very few people can wrap their minds around; I just call it SPIRIT. God is also behond our ability to understand. A biblical God with white hair would be an easy way to understand the Creator. Arguments about hubris or vanity are nothing more than atheist trash talk.
 
Mazulu said:
What is there to make peace with? Physics has so many loose ends that atheism is just a belief. There are plenty of non-material facets to reality that it's a wash. You can be an atheist if you wish. You can be a Christian if you wish. You can be something else if you wish. There are so many blind spots and missing pieces for physics to be able to ensure that atheism is correct. Sorry about that.
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Oh, but I'm at ease with my position on things. I don't think you are, that is more of my point. You want science to verify your spiritual beliefs. It never will, is my point. The spiritual road can sometimes be a lonely one. You have to be willing to travel it alone, or not at all. I'm not telling you not to believe, quite the contrary. If you believe in a supernatural power causing the Big Bang, then why does it matter what anyone else thinks? Science will never ever ever ever verify the existence of the supernatural.

Never













































Ever :p
 
wegs said:
Oh, but I'm at ease with my position on things. I don't think you are, that is more of my point. You want science to verify your spiritual beliefs. It never will, is my point. The spiritual road can sometimes be a lonely one. You have to be willing to travel it alone, or not at all. I'm not telling you not to believe, quite the contrary. If you believe in a supernatural power causing the Big Bang, then why does it matter what anyone else thinks? Science will never ever ever ever verify the existence of the supernatural.
Ever :p
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Have you looked at the definition of the word supernatural? Whatever caused the big bang is beyond what science can understand, beyond what they can test. There is no science for the creation of LAWS OF PHYSICS or for PHYSICS CONSTANTS. Whatever created those is, by definition, supernatural. :)
 
Mazulu said:
Have you looked at the definition of the word supernatural?
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Have you ever looked at the definition of the word supernatural?

Whatever caused the big bang is beyond what science can understand, beyond what they can test. There is no science for the creation of LAWS OF PHYSICS or for PHYSICS CONSTANTS. Whatever created those is, by definition, supernatural. :)
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Incorrect. For one, it's stupid to say "We don't know how this happens, therefore it is supernatural." Supernatural does not mean "stuff we don't understand," and supposing God where science has yet to reach does nothing to help our understanding. Not to mention that we have a broad enough picture of history to know that "supernatural" has a zero percent success rate at explaining the world.

It's also incorrect to assume that something created physics. Like the concepts you have literally no understanding of--time, wave-functions, etc--physics is a set of behaviors. It does not require a maker, it just requires conditions.
 
Mazulu said:
Have you looked at the definition of the word supernatural? Whatever caused the big bang is beyond what science can understand, beyond what they can test. There is no science for the creation of LAWS OF PHYSICS or for PHYSICS CONSTANTS. Whatever created those is, by definition, supernatural. :)
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Science has yet to discover it, yet...maybe?

So, if I'm clear as to your argument...you believe that everything except God, has a cause other than itself. My argument to you, would be...a beginning has a beginnER...who created the beginnER?

Your reply could easily be...what I state above.
But, in an infinite causal chain...there is no 'first cause.' How do you grapple with that?

And if God is all knowing, and all powerful...why did he create an imperfect universe with so many natural disasters, and some parts uninhabitable by man?

Going with your theory that 'God is power,' as you have often touted on here...is he really? We have no reason to think this...seeing what we know of this imperfect universe. Are we a mere experiment to see if we could survive?

But, then there becomes the complication of God is love. If God is love, why did he create a scattered and imperfect world? And why not assume first that the Big Bang came from a prior state of the universe, rather than a supernatural 'cause?'

Can you answer these questions? :)
 
Mazulu said:
Well, your sarcasm is probably correct. Scientists make computer models about the big bang; they use computers (machines) made from the physical world. There was a time when the physical world was not here. That was before the big bang. Since there were no computers then, and in fact there was NOTHING! So, were did the singularity/big bang come from?
Click to expand...

What's wrong with "I don't know?" And no, you don't get "partial credit" for inventing "spirits" and holding to it religiously. That's just dogma.

Physicists say (we don't know yet), but it really does become a faith issue. When it comes to matters beyond the physical universe, do you put your trust in science? Or do you put your trust in God? Or some third option...
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It really isn't a faith issue, since physicists saying "we don't know" isn't a positive claim about the universe's origins. But if I had to put my life's savings on either God or science to show the answer, I'm betting on science, because everything we have ever learned about the world is due to scientific inquiry, whereas religion has never bettered our understanding of anything. Not one truth has ever been established by faith, by scripture, or by dogma.
 
Balerion said:
But if I had to put my life's savings on either God or science to show the answer, I'm betting on science, because everything we have ever learned about the world is due to scientific inquiry, whereas religion has never bettered our understanding of anything. Not one truth has ever been established by faith, by scripture, or by dogma.
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In fact, the reverse could be said to be true, by anyone with an ounce of knowledge of history.
 
I'm a little weary lately, of society as a whole it seems, wanting to change basic definitions. Reality is reality. Period. It's not based on ghosts, and gods, and spirits. It's based on a world that shows things as they really exist. Not as we wish they would or hope they would. But, as they actually do exist.

There's a word for this, but I'm tired and can't think of it...but, it's when people take terminology and distort the meaning to suit their own beliefs/customs. And then that sort of starts to become an 'alternative' definition...and it's like...huh...how did we get here? lol
 
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Originally Posted by paddoboy View Post
In fact, the reverse could be said to be true, by anyone with an ounce of knowledge of history.
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Seattle said:
Faith never established any truth. How could not knowing something establish truth?
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PML :)
I'm speaking of the fact that not only has "Not one truth has ever been established by faith, by scripture, or by dogma." but what it has established is archaic beliefs such as flat Earth, and geocentric solar system based on passages in the bible rather then science and observations.
 
paddoboy said:
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Originally Posted by paddoboy View Post
In fact, the reverse could be said to be true, by anyone with an ounce of knowledge of history.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






PML :)
I'm speaking of the fact that not only has "Not one truth has ever been established by faith, by scripture, or by dogma." but what it has established is archaic beliefs such as flat Earth, and geocentric solar system based on passages in the bible rather then science and observations.
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Sorry. My bad :) It's late :)
 
Balerion said:
Playing loose and fast with the term "material," I see.
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So you're backing away from your assertion that everything in reality is "material". You won't supply a definition, so I'll supply one.

ma·te·ri·al
/məˈti(ə)rēəl/
noun
noun: material; plural noun: materials1. the matter from which a thing is or can be made."goats can eat more or less any plant material"
synonyms: matter, substance, medium More"the decomposition of organic material"

Baleron, stop dodging simple questions!
 
Balerion said:
It really isn't a faith issue, since physicists saying "we don't know" isn't a positive claim about the universe's origins. But if I had to put my life's savings on either God or science to show the answer, I'm betting on science, because everything we have ever learned about the world is due to scientific inquiry, whereas religion has never bettered our understanding of anything. Not one truth has ever been established by faith, by scripture, or by dogma.
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That sounded like the truth. Thank you for your honesty.
 
wegs said:
Science has yet to discover it, yet...maybe?

So, if I'm clear as to your argument...you believe that everything except God, has a cause other than itself. My argument to you, would be...a beginning has a beginnER...who created the beginnER? Your reply could easily be...what I state above. But, in an infinite causal chain...there is no 'first cause.' How do you grapple with that?
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Because after God, nobody gives a damn what's beyond that.
And if God is all knowing, and all powerful...why did he create an imperfect universe with so many natural disasters, and some parts uninhabitable by man? Going with your theory that 'God is power,' as you have often touted on here...is he really? We have no reason to think this...seeing what we know of this imperfect universe. Are we a mere experiment to see if we could survive?
Click to expand...
You got a chance to reincarnate. You got a chance to live, to make a difference, to change other people's lives, to experience the grand cosmic adventure, you got a chance to experience the intensity of life to its fullest, you got the chance to push yourself hard, to push yourself beyond your personal limitations, you got a chance to play the game of life, no holds barred, you got a chance to fight for what you believe in, you got a chance to fly a banner of YOUR CHOICE, you got a chance to make your own decisions and to reap whatever rewards or consequences that came with it, you got a chance to suffer and die for your beliefs, you got a chance to experience what it is to be alive...
But, then there becomes the complication of God is love. If God is love, why did he create a scattered and imperfect world? And why not assume first that the Big Bang came from a prior state of the universe, rather than a supernatural 'cause?'
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There is no evidence that anything material existed prior to the big bang.
Can you answer these questions? :)
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