Anorexia kills Brazilian model

TimeTraveler said:
I think it's BS. Living in modern society is the disease. There was no such thing as eating disorders until thin became hyped as the way to be.

In tribal society, and in other countries, no one has this problem. It seems like a western problem, why is that?

Show me that people in Africa have eating disorders, or that the native Americans did, or that animals do, and then you'll convince me it's a biological disease and not a social problem.

I'm not one of the people who thinks that every social problem is a matter of brain disorders. Do you think racism is a brain disorder? Is it a disease? What about sexism? Is that a brain disorder? What about aggression and criminality?

You can reduce everything to a brain disorder but this does not change the fact that there are producers, products and entire industries set up to take advantage of these brain disordered people.

So my opinion, instead of calling the victims weak and disordered, or diseased, which we could call just about everyone, we should be thinking about what caused this specific brazillian to become a model in the first place, and what caused her to starve herself to death, and get a wide scope of the problem, otherwise it's just going to be another disease. Thinism is a lot like racism, it's the same way of thinking, do we call racists or thinists diseased because they want to promote their concept of beauty? No of course not, we only call the products the diseased.
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All mental disorders have a psychological or biological basis and are related to susceptibility of the mind/body to the environment.

Anorexics are attracted to and more susceptible to environments that predispose them to eating disorders, which is reflected in their biological parameters.
 
Roman:

Yes I know that. But not everyone falls to social pressures to the degree of anorexia. Which means it is not the lone factor in producing anorexia. There is also matters of will, character and values of the individual person. Most of my female friends do not have an eating disorder. Some do. Both groups experience the same social pressure. There is another element at play.
 
Tyler said:
1. The word 'disease' tends to make someone feel like it's not their fault, not vice versa. A disease is something you get - not something you do.

2. Yes technically disease is the word used to describe it and many other lifestyles. I disagree with this choice. A disease should be something that simple will power cannot overcome. At the very least there are two types of diseases.

(i) ones that will power cannot resolve.
(ii) ones that will power can resolve.

Anorexia is a lifestyle. A bad one, mind you, but still a lifestyle. And it is the woman or mans fault. Like any other lifestyle choice. That the fashion industry and other outlets largley influence the lifestyle choices of people is undoubtable. However I am a firm believer that we are still human beings who have an ability to chose our own lifestyle within the constraints of the law of our land. How much you let a cultural force affect you is ultimatly your decision. To say otherwise is to suggest that everyone should logically be simply bending to the norms of the industry in question.

There's a reason not every girl has anorexia. Some are more susceptible to industry images than others. It is only by their will power, guided by friends, family and therapists usually, that they can overcome this.
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All of us are programmed from birth. Men are programmed to be aggressive, given toy soldiers, and taught to treat women as sex objects. Women are taught to be submissive, to look however men want them to look, and to obey. Then you have all the different races which are all being programmed by the media to behave in certain ways, you have gangster rap telling urban youth to kill themselves, you have rock n roll telling people to become drug addicts, you have the most corrupt youth culture that has ever existed in any society.

Finally, you have stuff like girls gone wild, and really this is a commercial that even pisses me off. All the women look the same, they all are really stupid, and flashing random guys.

I suppose a young person, a typical young male, would be looking at this video as a collection of breasts and body parts, and not really paying attention to what exactly is being done to the women in these videos, or whats being promoted by videos like this.

Basically, the media and advertising is getting worse and worse. I have no problem with porn, but that girls gone wild stuff is on regular TV. Porn is alright, the women get paid so they choose to do it, but I don't think it should be advertised on free TV.

Right now we have no ethical standards for the media. Remember when smoking was cool? Now having an eating disorder is cool, and being a gangster is cool, and using all sorts of drugs is cool, whats next?


The problem with words like diseased, or disordered, these are weak words. If you call yourself diseased you are saying something is wrong with you, and not saying something is wrong with them. You can help people, if you first stop using weak language, a lot of people who have these problems don't have a high self esteem and calling them diseased is equal to callnig them unfit, like FAT is now becoming a disease.

What gives them the right to call you diseased and poke fun of your flaws when they are just as diseased and flawed themselves? Everyone is flawed, all of us can fall for this type of programming, all of us have fallen for it, so why call some of these people diseased? The real problem is with the media, the people were like this for thousands of years and were doing just fine until the damn media was invented, now we have toy soldier boys and barbie girls going around starving themselves to death and killing themselves in various ways.
 
Tyler said:
Roman:

Yes I know that. But not everyone falls to social pressures to the degree of anorexia. Which means it is not the lone factor in producing anorexia. There is also matters of will, character and values of the individual person. Most of my female friends do not have an eating disorder. Some do. Both groups experience the same social pressure. There is another element at play.
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Not everyone catches a cold.
That means a virus is not the lone factor in producing a cold.
Which means the cold's not a disease.
 
Ahhhhhh, none of that is in response to what I said.

And I don't think anorexia is deemed cool. I've never heard that said or implied and most articles or magazines you pick up talk about the problem with anorexia.

It's still just a fact that as much as society tries to conform you, physically and psychologically you have the ability to break out of those grasps. Lots of people do on a daily basis, there's no excuse for anyone else.
 
Tyler said:
Ahhhhhh, none of that is in response to what I said.

And I don't think anorexia is deemed cool. I've never heard that said or implied and most articles or magazines you pick up talk about the problem with anorexia.

It's still just a fact that as much as society tries to conform you, physically and psychologically you have the ability to break out of those grasps. Lots of people do on a daily basis, there's no excuse for anyone else.
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Don't bother with Time Traveler. He's... dense. More than that. Because you disagree with one of his views, he assumes he knows why you disagree, and no matter what you say, he'll reply like you're saying something else.

He's also ignorant of most of the things he talks about.

So don't bother with him.
 
Roman said:
Not everyone catches a cold.
That means a virus is not the lone factor in producing a cold.
Which means the cold's not a disease.
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Immunity does make a difference.

Not everyone died of the Black plague either.
 
If you attain virus x you have likelihood p of getting the symptoms consistent with that virus. If you do not get the symptoms, then you have an extra factor (genetic) which allows you to experience this.

The reasoning you listed is not the same structure as the reasoning I made.

And no, a virus is not the lone factor in determining if you get a cold.

And that was not even my argument for why it's not a disease. I said because will power can rid you of it, it is not the same as a biological disease. Which will power alone can not get rid of.

Whether you like it or not, this is a distinct difference in attainment of the symptoms and prescription. Which means the two must be classified differently.
 
samcdkey said:
All mental disorders have a psychological or biological basis and are related to susceptibility of the mind/body to the environment.

Anorexics are attracted to and more susceptible to environments that predispose them to eating disorders, which is reflected in their biological parameters.
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What about alcoholics who beat up their wives? The alcohol industry, targets a specific demographic, and this creates new industries to handle domestic abuse and domestic affairs.

What about gangster rap, you see it on TV all the time, where gangster raps promote gangs, and tell young people to kill other young people, are these gang members diseased?

What about people who want to be normal, is it a disease to want to be normal? Is it a disease to want to be cool?

You are saying, that eating disorders are a disease and not a social problem, but what about criminality? Is that a disease or a social problem? What about violence against women, are these men diseased or is it a social problem? What about violent people in general, are they diseased?

You are being very selective with what you choose to call diseased and what you choose to call normal flaws. Either all flaws of this sort are diseases or none of them are.
 
Tyler said:
If you attain virus x you have likelihood p of getting the symptoms consistent with that virus. If you do not get the symptoms, then you have an extra factor (genetic) which allows you to experience this.

The reasoning you listed is not the same structure as the reasoning I made.

And no, a virus is not the lone factor in determining if you get a cold.

And that was not even my argument for why it's not a disease. I said because will power can rid you of it, it is not the same as a biological disease. Which will power alone can not get rid of.

Whether you like it or not, this is a distinct difference in attainment of the symptoms and prescription. Which means the two must be classified differently.
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Will power has been shown in numerous medical trials to get rid of diseases.
That's why controls involve a placebo.
 
Tyler said:
Ahhhhhh, none of that is in response to what I said.

And I don't think anorexia is deemed cool. I've never heard that said or implied and most articles or magazines you pick up talk about the problem with anorexia.

It's still just a fact that as much as society tries to conform you, physically and psychologically you have the ability to break out of those grasps. Lots of people do on a daily basis, there's no excuse for anyone else.
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I posted the video up for all to see. Eating disorders, large breasts, etc are all considered cool, because the media says it's cool. If the media says starving to death is normal, it becomes cool. This is something that is happening to teenage girls, they think it's cool, they don't know yet how harmful it is, or how dangerous it is, but they want to be thin so bad that they'll starve to get there.

It's the same with breast implants and plastic surgery later on, hollywood thinks it's cool, the media thinks it's cool, and eventually it becomes cool. There are actually sites on the internet, hosted by women, who are actually saying that it's good to have an eating disorder, and that it's good to get breast implants. You need to check out some of the womens forums on the internet.
 
Roman said:
Will power has been shown in numerous medical trials to get rid of diseases.
That's why controls involve a placebo.
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No, thats not true. Will power does not get rid of actual diseases, otherwise AIDs patients would will themselves into a cure. I don't think it's that simple.

The placebo effect works only on some diseases, otherwise the entire supplement industry would just give out placebos to make penis and breast size bigger and make a fortune selling bullshit.
 
No will power has shown undoubtedly to be a good factor. The right mental attitude gives your body strength.

There is one definition:
"a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment. "

And another, which is that of the psychological disease.

I believe attributing the word disease to the latter makes the patient believe that it occured from means beyond their control, which is detrimental in helping them overcome.
 
A mental illness is just as much of an illness as a physical one.

If you think it's not an illness and just a disorder where a girl doesn't eat enough, then you haven't met a truly anorexic person. Being Calista Flockhart is not being anorexic. Voluntarily starving to death is -- and no healthy person does that. No healthy person actively fights one of our most basic survival impulses.

It's a disease, believe me.
 
Sandoz said:
A mental illness is just as much of an illness as a physical one.

If you think it's not an illness and just a disorder where a girl doesn't eat enough, then you haven't met a truly anorexic person. Being Calista Flockhart is not being anorexic. Voluntarily starving to death is -- and no healthy person does that. No healthy person actively fights one of our most basic survival impulses.

It's a disease, believe me.
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In that case, so is being a liar, a thief, or a criminal. In that case being violent is a disease also. And you cannot dispute it, because you just said so.

You have to look and see what all these people have in common. They have NO self esteem.
They are harming themselves, is it new? No it's not, and eating disorder is just one of the new ways it's being done but this has always been happening, either people are eating themselves to death or starving themselves to death because they are dying inside.

Calling people with no self esteem, mentally ill, sure it might be something you or I could say, because we have a self esteem, but these people with no self esteem vastly outnumber us, what prevents them from saying we are mentally ill for wanting to survive and enjoy our lives?
 
Sandoz I never said it wasn't an illness. I said it wasn't a disease.

Whether you like it or not, there are categorical differences between biological diseases and things such as anorexia. For some reason everyone gets hyperdefensive over this so I have to condition my statement with: THIS IS NOT TO PASS VALUE JUDGEMENT OVER WHICH IS WORSE.

Anyway, in biological diseases the cause is not simply a result of lack of will power with respect to societal pressures. And whether you like to say so or not, caving to the pressures of the fashion industry, etc. is to have less will power in their face than the girls who don't cave.

Again, this is not to say that there aren't problems with advertising, or problems with girls' education. It's just to say that the route problem is something psychological within girls. The fashion industry simply plays off of an already existent predisposition - say, the desire to be popular, or attractive, in short.

The word disease makes it feel like it's something you contacted, not something you chose to do. And unless you think people don't have a will of their own, then it was a choice. Frankly I give people enough credit to think they can make their own choices if they really want to.

I wrote a paper on this a while back. Essentially I agree with the level of outrage from feminist groups and plain ol' social action groups and I sympathize. But I don't think the outrage should be aimed towards the fashion industry. I still believe in a fairly libratarian government and advertisers should be allowed to do what they want - if they can outsmart the people, then so be it.

In fact, I think one of the reasons this is good is because it will require us to adapt on self-reliance. The outrage should be directed towards how and what these girls are being taught by their parents and schools growing up. Some people are more susceptible to ads and societal norms than others - that is a fact. We should be gearing people from a very young age (guys, not just girls) to have the capacity to cope with these pressures and forces.

You will never get rid of every bad advertisement like the fashion industry, you will never get rid of every bad societal norm and pressure. So don't make that your approach. The assault needs to come on taking away the power fom these forces and giving it back to the individual person. Every girl needs to learn to be strong enough not to let how thin the models are effect them.

I'll give you two analogies (not as proof, but just as better description) of why I want this...

(i) when your 8 year old kid is starting to receive peer pressure you try and teach him how to not respond to it, how to make his own choices. you don't go around and find every peer putting pressure on him and build a fence to make sure they can't talk to him. why? it's impossible. besides, teaching him that strength is a good life lesson.

(ii) When someone has contacted AIDS and viruses begin to assault the body - like they do to everyone - the ideal situation would be to remove the AIDS, not make a million drugs to block every virus. It would be impossible to stop every single illness from coming in on a person, besides living with AIDS won't be fun anyway. So we search for the drugs and treatments that can rid someone of AIDS. You attack the source, not the forces which play off this.

And there is my case against 'disease' and anorexia being cause for attacking the industries.
 
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