Ancient Weapons

You guys know they invented the Lansknecht/hedgehog trick to deal with this kind of combat? The reason the halberd was invented (so I understand) was to provide a weapon for breaking up pike formations.

Generally the idea was to assemble squares of pikemen with gunners in the middle - this was a classic tactic against cavalry, which is why people largely stopped using the old cavalry charge.
Horses won't charge into an infantry square for the same reason they won't charge into a wall. If you don't believe in gunpowder, crossbows do just as well.

Lastly, don't forget that great old unit, the horse archer! Mounted archers will make anyone's life miserable.
 
"The reason the halberd was invented (so I understand) was to provide a weapon for breaking up pike formations."

HHmm, I'm not sure about that. I dont have many references for continental warfare, but Landsknechts were around at the end of the 15th century, but halberds were popularised by the Swiss i think over a century beforehand. In the later 13th century, cavalry was brought to a standstill by massed ranks of spearsmen, in the UK the spears were usually only 7 or 8 feet long, but set for cavalry, front rank kneeling, but on ground, middle holding at waist height, maybe slanted upwards, rear rank poking through middle rank at head height, enough to stop most cavalry. Except of course if you cant assume formation in time, or are untrained. At the battle of Bosworth (1485), Henry Tudor apparently had a force of French pikemen, although what length they were I dont know, but it nearly repelled Richards mounted assault on him. However, the fact your on half a ton of horse gives you tremendous momentum, and so Richard nearly got close enough to have personal combat with Tudor. I am not yet sure about when spears turned more into pikes in medieval warfare, it happened more on the contintent first. At the battle of Flodden (1513), the english, with bills, destroyed the scottsh army, who lost in part to using french pikes, whilst not actually being trained properly to do so, so the heads got chopped off and they couldnt do anything. One of y re-enacting friends, who says his fighitng style is "thug", claims to have defeated an entire pike block single handed, by grabbing the pike at the end and bringing it across the entire block, thus trapping them all in and unable to move.
ARmys of musket and pike and artillery developed during the 16th century, reaching full development in the english civil war, the 1660's or so.

"Generally the idea was to assemble squares of pikemen with gunners in the middle - this was a classic tactic against cavalry, which is why people largely stopped using the old cavalry charge."

Around the 17th century they did. At least one civil war battle I read about, a pike block survived long enough, until its gunpowder ran out, then it was overrun.
 
I bow to your superior knowledge of military history - mine is admittedly sketchy. However, my intended point was to say that the outfit/strategy being discussed here seems decidedly medieval, where advances in warfare during the early modern period &c. did represent an improvement in strategy to which we should pay attention.

Also... people often go on about the katana and the folding technique used to make it. As far as I knew, European swords were made by folding in some cases as well (although pattern-welding was a less expensive process, I understand).
 
Woo hoo, finally 2 years of reneactment, the last year of which I have been getting really into it, are paying off.

I think one of the stipulations of the person who started this part off, was no gunpoweder, thus keeping it fairly old fashioned. And I knwo people who insist a 15th century wars of the roses army would beat a similar sized 17th century civil war army. Longow outranges muskets, will damage unarmoured cavalry, and bills etc can do the rest. Except archers take a lot of training, and are expensive.

Europe had pattern welding about 1300 years ago. It produced interesting blades, with impressive patterns on them.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/erefs.html
Ive forgotten what i read about them last year, but I think that url might provide some more info.
The japanese took htings to an extreme, but a very funcitonal extreme. However, teh european way usually used 4 or 6 or suchlike bars of one grade of iron, the kind that is flexiblem and welded them together with hitting and heat, then soldered the sharper, more brittle edges on either side. They were usually for hacking and slashing and stabbing use, but were sharp on both sides. Except the saxon seax, which is an odd weapon, but smaller than a sword.
 
And I knwo people who insist a 15th century wars of the roses army would beat a similar sized 17th century civil war army.
Click to expand...

That may well be... the Afghans managed to fend off the Red Army for years, even though they rode horses and the Soviets rode tanks and helicopters.

War is about adaptation, and some of the adaptations that were made - like the eventual abandonment of armour in the face of the increasing prevalence of gunpowder - wouldn't necessarily hold the more modern soldier in good stead in the face of more primitive means. Armour that won't ward off bullets might still deflect the arrow or sling bullet... and (in the words of Mackina) "Don't worry - you'll be just as dead."

I was also wondering about the older military stuff - in Dynasty Warriors there are battles where you can personally kill more than a thousand people. Leaving aside how physically taxing that would probably be, I had thought that conflicts of the Three Kingdoms era in China (and similar ones in medieval Europe) had much smaller groups of people, like less than a hundred. Anyone know about this? My military history is kinda shaky.
 
Well, medieval UK, from an English heritage book called "british Battles",
stamford bridge, in 1066, there were 300 viking ships, which likely means over 5,000 men on that side.
Stirling bridge, 1297, around 5,000 scots, and a few thousand english, but 300 were mounted knights.
By the civil war, we're talking about 10,000 or maybe more a side, but often less.
The continent did things bigger, of course. But the days of a few hundred a side were left behind in the dark ages.
 
Guthrie

What group are you in? I remember making some enquires on here a whileback, and I think it was you that helped me, so many thanks! I have finally located a near group, and I have joined the Black Bear, who run the battle of tewksbury, and are in the period of Bosworth. I should hopefully be getting my first battles on the field, with a sword which I am soon to purchase from the traders fair in Coventry! So, this was kind of an extended way of thanking you, and asking for any more good info you have on the 15C period...:)
 
Great!

So in that case, look out for Nevilles on Tewksbury. Although we're on the winning side, its after the battle of Barnet, at which The earl of warwick, Richard Neville, was killed, so we dont go on as nevilles. Swords are great fun, but useless on a battlefield unless your a tinny. Better in my opinion if your not, to go on as a billman/ spearman.
AS for information, I have a lot, but its all still in books, or needing dragged out my head. Best thing to do is talk to peopel whove been doing it longer than you. They can get a bit boring, but also know what theyre talking about.
youll be at coventry? So will I, and about half the period reenactors. And another tip, try to ignore the politics involved in re-enacting, otherwise youll get worn out.
Hows the company of the black bear going? I was at tewksbury this year, and there was a small problem, that the campsite was too small for all the people there. apart from that it went ok, but the cramped campsight put a lot of people off.
 
Well, a sword is just so much more fun than the bills! And you can't use a bill if someone is lying over it! :D That is one of the methods that I have been informed of to take out Billmen. I have managed to be fascinated by all of the tales and advice so far, boredom still seems a long way off. Yeh, they have actually just started organising it now, they are sorting out a pass system at the moment I think, some emails have been flying around. They are also seeing a few people about getting space, so it should be fun. Well, I may well see you at coventry!:)
 
Oh no, if someone lies on top of your bill, you cant use it, thats why you make sure theyre dead before they fall over, step back, pull your bill out the way then hit their friend coming in behind them. At Bostowrth this year I stopped a tinnie with my bill, held at 45 degree angle point downwards, he couldnt get his sword round to hit me, and we stood there for a couple of sconds before I pushed him off. Then I was thinking "Damn, I need a dagger" because then i could have whipped it out and stabbed him. Of course, many times before, I have been stabbed by a tinnie, but now I have the experience to know what to do with them.
which side do the black bear fight on at Tewksbury?
 
Unfortunately, they are not allowed to fight! They just organise it and wander around I think :) You might need a pretty long dagger to stab a man at the end of your bill. Have you been involved in any of the tournament one on one things? They sound great fun, if somewhat painful:D
 
Oh no, he was right up agaisnt me, my bill was held across my body, but his sword was trapped between it and his body, so he couldnt hit me, our faces were about a foot apart, but head butting isnt allowed.
As for tournaments, i entered a wee sword one at a small event near the lakes district, I forget the name. I beat one of my opponents, got killed by another, they were all much more experienced than me. I entered a different tournament at Blore heath, thats down your way, you should be able to get to it next year. It was done more for a laugh, by how many times you hit your oppenent even if they werent killing blows. In the first rounbd, I took a lightweight bill in, hit my opponent 2 or 3 times properly, ie how to kill them, then he started attacking me with is bill, like you would hit somoene when canoeing, ie hit with one end, then the other, holding the bill horizontally, it got him a lot hits, but i managed to push him off and hit him enough to win that round. Next round was fun, because we both had bills to start with, hit each other many times then he clsoed in stabbing with his dagger, then after the break he did it again but I forced him off and the third round was the most fun, becasue we both had daggers, i borrowed one, and we ewre hammering away, forcing each otehr to drop our bills, then nearly wrestling each otehr to the ground, i picked up his bill to fight him with, it was all good fun. But later on it got serious, people were getting bruised by the paddling movements, the bloke who won was huge and strong. One of the stanleys got a broken bone in his hand because of it, but he did go on with sword, dagger, buckler and knife, against someone with a bill. I mnight enter another next year, but you have to have a good padded jack.
 
Heh heh. You're all also ingnoring unarmored combat weapons. What about Bagh Nakh? A bar clasped in the hand with blades extending between the fingers used in India for assasination and dueling? Or Bichwa dagger ?

::(Meanwhile, his girlfriend is sobbing in the corner. "Why do I always get the weirdoooos?"):::m:

Or a Sjambok (pronounced Sham-bok) used in South Africa for crowd control?

I have one and I had to use it on a dog once. It was quite effective.:D
 
HHmm, I dont know much about India, lots of interesting kind of baroque stuff. Lets face it, when you know what your doing, anything can be a weapon.
HHhmm, the south africans have a rather robust attitude ot that sort of thing, dont they?
As for your girlfriend, ignore her or convert her. It is most entertaining to watch re-enacting couples fight each other. Or rather they tend not to fight when theyre angry, or if they are the waepons are more likely frying pan or suchlike.
 
I prefer the old weapons that came before firearms, but I think that if firearms had never been invented humanity in general would still be extremely violent like it used to be. I think firearms have made everyone more "polite"(as I believe xev puts it).

I'm not a sword guy, i'm more of a hammer or mace guy. I don't know, I just really love the idea of bashing someones skull in with a hammer.
Axes are pretty cool too.
I also like the ball and chain but not the kind with a handle, if a chain is involved I wouldn't want a handle, it can't be as accurate as the chain is swinging from the end of the handle instead of your hand.
Has anyone had those battles where you stuff socks into a longer sock and then wack eachother with them? I do that all the time with my friends and I feel I could wield a nasty ball and chain. You can occassionally black someone out with the socks in a sock weapon if you really smash them, so a ball and chain would be devestating if fiercely administered.
Hooks, hooks on handles are rad. I'd really love to dig a hook into someones temple and then drag their carcass through some woods or something. Actually I'm just thinking of gravediggaz lyrics "draggin their asses on my hook by their temples" but still, I love the idea of hooks. Maybe I could hit them in the head with my war-hammer and then hang them from the ceiling by a hook through the skull. I'm sticking with war-hammers as the coolest ancient weapon.
I find swords kind of gay, but if I have to pick I go with crusader over saracen. I like straight heavy swords over curvy girl swords.
I just want to hit someone in the head with a hammer basically.
 
YOu heathen, Dr lounatic.

Gunpowder was known by roger bacon in the west, in teh 13th century, and theres a wee picture or two of it being used in some osrt of arrow firing cannon in the 14th century. Byt the mid 15th century there were cannon works across europe, one of thbest being in belgium, producing great bombards. So cannon were in heavy use by the mid 1400's.
Esewhere, I dont know. the Chinese had gunpowder several hundred years before western europe, but didnt really exploit it. It is likely that knowledge of it passed from China to Euriope along the silk road.
 
Wow again...... I thought that guns started existing during the middle ages, but I'm wrong, right?
Oh, I forgot when the gatling gun was invented...... could someone please remind me?
 
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